45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????

[Longcruise]

Because this is what they choose to hunt with...and this is my point...you should be able to choose your choice of weapon... why do you ask this...?Being able to hunt should be motivation enough...if I were limited to just throwing spears...I would be going...would I think I was disadvantaged in using it?...Nope...I would just hunt within range...If I would use muzzleloaders...would I feel disadvantaged...nope...I would use the best that I can afford and hunt within range...Why do I feel this way...to me...the weapons are tools to get the job done...and like anything else...I can choose which tool to use...be it modern...or primative...the choice...is MINE

Ok, I think I'm beginning to see through our differences here.  Just for clarity let me show you the typical CO big game season structure:

Aug 27 to Sept 27    Archery deer and elk

Sept 10 to Sep 18    Ml deer and elk

Oct 15 to Oct 19   Regular rifle Elk only

Oct 22 to Late Nov  (three separated seasons for regular rifle deer and elk hunting combined.

(there are a few other special seasons in particular areas, but this sums it up for the most part)

For archery elk/deer only bows are legal (no crossbows, no optics, no electronics)

For ML deer elk season, front stuffer only, no sabots, no pelletized powder, no scopes and some game specific caliber restrictions.  in-lines are ok if they meet the above criteria)

For regular rifle season, other than caliber and foot pound restrictions as well as magazine capacity, anything goes.  Hunters may use modern rifles, handguns, cross bows, any kind of ml with sabots, any kind of powder, scopes, the works.

When I read your above quote, I see us in complete agreement.  As you can see, hunters have very little restriction on their choice of weapons.  They are restricted as to when they can use their choice of weapon.

I have no disagreement with you in terms of we hunters having these choices.  How many states allow deer hunting with a 20mm cannon round?  Probably none!  It's not an available choice.  How many states allow deer hunting with a .22 short?  Probably none!  None of these are choices under law

So, unless I read you wrong, we agree pretty much... unless you think you should be allowed to choose any weapon in any season such as a 30-06 in the bow season, etc.

What is the real issue here... I thought it is being able to use some centerfire cartridges in Mississippi...and this states meaning of the word primative...is it not?...It really doesn't have a-lot to do with Colorado...or Missouri...now does it... I do wish we had that oppourtunity here...

It's Ian's fault!

In any case, we may have spun off on a tangent here, but it has been interesting, at least to me.

[JPH45]

Longcruise, I'd give my eye teeth for a chance at an elk hunt. You've no idea how lucky I think you are to even have such a season available to you.

We are covered up with deer down here mainly because the state DNR's drug their feet bringing extended doe hunts into season. I was living in Georgia 20 years ago when extended doe seasons were first used there. Now in Georgia and Alabama nearly the whole season is either sex, Tennessee and obvioulsy Mississippi are adding lots of doe days too. I rememeber when people would travel across the county to see a set of deer tracks. (literally) Now they want to know how to get rid of them. I know one fella back home who quit raising soybeans...the deer ate him out. Don't know how it is now, but Georgia DNR used to give special permits to crop farmers to kill all the deer they cared in the growing season, but the deer had to lie where it was shot. No harvesting of any kind. The deer could not even be processed to give to charity food programs      If my choice is sharing hunting time with "crossover" weapons or seeing the deer wasted, I'll share the time, every time.

What we really need are meaningful seasons. A muzzle loader hunt that runs concurrent with centerfire rifle and is rewarded with added doe days only is nearly ridiculous. We don't even have tags issued here. There is no check of any kind if you are hunting private land. Kill it, take it to the processor (or do it yourself) Go out and pop one with your 45-70, who will can tell the difference?  A 45 or 50 cal hole is just that. I'm not advocating this, just pointing out the silliness of some our regulations. The spirit of the hunt lies with the hunter. In the end what is considered fair chase, or in keeping with a style of hunt is in the heart and the actions of the hunter. My best wishes for a successful hunt for you this year friend, John.

[Haywire Haywood]

It's Ian's fault!

Yep, It's my fault.  I've come to accept my faults tho and they don't bother me anymore.... they do bother other people tho, and I have more  fun with that than a man aught to be allowed.  :-D

Ian

[Longcruise]

Longcruise, I'd give my eye teeth for a chance at an elk hunt. You've no idea how lucky I think you are to even have such a season available to you.

Well, my state of CO is one of the last places in the world, if not the last, where you can drive into town and buy a tag and go out and hunt literally millions of acres of land.  Cant do it in ML season, but ya can in archery or regular rifle.

If you should decide to make the trip, let me know.  Be happy to line you up with the right locations, etc.

they do bother other people tho, and I have more fun with that than a man aught to be allowed

Heh heh!  I am likewise guilty and get away with it all the time..... except with the spousal unit.

[Mac11700]

So, unless I read you wrong, we agree pretty much... unless you think you should be allowed to choose any weapon in any season such as a 30-06 in the bow season, etc.

No...we agree...even though if bow hunting..if you were blaze orange over your camoflauge..it's legal...but in that I don't agree either...and most bow hunters hate blaze orange and won't wear it...and run the risk...

Caliber restrictions...hmmm...that could open up another can of worms...but I won't go down that path... :wink:

Have a Great 1

Mac

[FirstFreedom]

that looks closer to 8 points than 4 to me quick...  

an NEF breach loader with smokeless powder ain't even close to primitive.  But I still wish my state would do that too.

[quickdtoo]

Here in the west we only count one side of the rack and don't include eye guards. Don't ask me why, I have no clue why there is an eastern count and a western count!! :?

[DPRinks]

Texas does not allow cap and ball revolving carbines and rifles, they do not load from the muzzle.
The idea of the .45-70 being a very limited range cartridge is not necessarily accurate, point blank range, [ 5" above to 5" below point of aim], with a 500gr postell with a BC of about .440 and a velocity of 1600-1700fps, easily achieved in a Handirifle, if your shoulder will take it, is about 225-240 yds.
Try it on some of the ballistic computers.

[Crudders32]

I am with some of the other guys that say where do you draw the line.  It is called a muzzleloader season for a reason, and there isn't anything about a 45/70 that is loaded from the muzzle.  I am from Pennsylvania and the rules on our muzzleloader season will not permit inlines or even percussion ignition.  It is flintlock and open sights only.  This definately provides more of a challenge by limiting range and accuracy of the rifles.  It was only a couple of years ago that we were permitted to use bullets other than patch and round ball.  I think that the muzzleloader season should be kept to real muzzleloaders and hunters looking for a challenge.

[quickdtoo]

First of all, MS's season is a Primitive weapons season, not a muzzlelaoder season, so the preclusion of a breech loader is a moot point as far as their law is concerned.

http://www.mdwfp.com/Level2/Wildlife/hunting_regs.asp

Even PA allows the use of modern muzzleloaders in their early season...

Muzzleloader Seasons: October Antlerless Deer Season - Any
single-barrel muzzleloading long gun with flintlock, in-line or percussion
ignition 44 caliber or larger. Scope sights permitted..

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/digestpdfs/2005/big_game_regulations.pdf

[Longcruise]

but I won't go down that path...

Me neither! :grin:

[Haywire Haywood]

I will..

MG season:
300 weatherby minimum and limited to ankle shots.  Then, when you have them down, you have to finish them with a Schrade... blunted so you don't hurt yourself in the process.

ML season:
75 cal musket Flinchlock minimum, loaded with 2 balls and 150gr FFFFFg, 25 yard maximum range, again, ankle shots only followed by the blunted schrade for safety.

 

Ian

[quickdtoo]

That sounds wunerful......anyone got a source for 5F powder? :roll:  Maybe I can mix 4F and 1F? :-D  :-D  :-D

[Haywire Haywood]

Nah, it's easy... pour a bunch of 4f in a mortar and pestel and grind away till it's like confectioners suger.  The octane rating goes thru the roof wid dat stuff.

Disclaimer:  I'm jokin, really I am. I pulled that right out of the nether regions of my underwear drawer and I think I nicked an artery in the process.. don't blow yerself to smithereens... it's a long way back.

Ian

[quickdtoo]

Actually I've done the 4F in a mortar and ground it with a pestal but also added some of the Drypowder waterproofing powder to it for priming a flinter in wet weather huntng.....it works, but it also slows the burn rate way down....but it does ignite!

[Haywire Haywood]

Tim, this may sound odd coming from me, but you really worry me sometimes..   LOL

Ian

[quickdtoo]

I worry me sometimes!!!! :eek:

[Jeffery8mm]

I just realized that .38 or larger would encompass the 44 rem mag also!!!
Now what to do? :x

Jeff

[Badnews Bob]

When did this get so silly?  :roll:  OH I see Ian is in on this, Watch out Quick that boy just aint right. :-D

[RT8]

Since I've seen nobody else answer this:
Scopes have been legal on 'guns' during our "Primitive Weapons" season for several years.  They will remain so on any new breech-loading weapons as well.

The NEF guns are legal only because the patent on the design is older than 1900.

The 45-70 is every bit as "primitive" as a modern inline ML shooting 150 gr pyrodex under a 240gr saboted handgun bullet...actually, the 45-70 will have LESS range.  Only benefits are faster reload times (realistically, is how many 2nd shots is anybody going to get with a handi-rifle?) and no messy cleanup.

We can hunt deer in some manner from October 15-Feb 15 (4 months)
Also, our deer season this year (in my zone, dates shift some further north) are:


DEER SEASON DATES LEGAL DEER
Archery Oct. 15, 2005-
Oct. 31, 2005 Legal Bucks Only  

Nov. 1, 2005-
Nov. 18, 2005 Either Sex

Youth Gun Nov. 12, 2005-
Nov. 18, 2005 Either Sex (On Private Lands Only, Youth 15 and under)  

Gun
(with dogs) Nov. 19, 2005-
Dec. 1, 2005 Either Sex on Private Lands Only;Legal bucks only on open public land  

Primitive Weapon Dec. 2, 2005-
Dec. 15, 2005 Either Sex

Gun
(without dogs) Dec. 16, 2005-
Dec. 23, 2005 Either Sex on Private Lands Only;Legal bucks only on open public land  
Dec. 17, 2005-
Dec. 18, 2005 Either Sex on open public land  

Gun
(with dogs)  Dec. 24, 2005-
Jan. 18, 2006 Legal bucks only

Primitive Weapon Jan. 19, 2006-
Jan. 31, 2006 Either Sex
Feb. 1, 2006-
Feb. 15, 2006 Legal Bucks Only  

BAG LIMIT:
Antlered Buck Deer: The bag limit on antlered buck deer is one (1) buck per day, not to exceed three (3) per license year. See below for description of legal bucks. On private lands, a person less than sixteen (16) years old may harvest one (1) deer with any hardened antler per license year.

Legal Bucks for Deer Management Zone 2: Only antlered buck deer with antlers of four (4) points or greater AND either a minimum inside spread of ten (10) inches OR a minimum main beam length of thirteen (13) inches may be taken. An antler point is defined as any antler protrusion that would hold any size ring.

Antlerless Deer: The bag limit on antlerless deer is one (1) per day, not to exceed three (3) per license year; except that two (2) additional antlerless deer per license year may be taken with a bow and arrow.

[quickdtoo]

The 45-70 is every bit as "primitive" as a modern inline ML shooting 150 gr pyrodex under a 240gr saboted handgun bullet...actually, the 45-70 will have LESS range.  Only benefits are faster reload times (realistically, is how many 2nd shots is anybody going to get with a handi-rifle?) and no messy cleanup.

Now ya stepped in it!!!

[Mac11700]

The 45-70 is every bit as "primitive" as a modern inline ML shooting 150 gr pyrodex under a 240gr saboted handgun bullet...actually, the 45-70 will have LESS range. Only benefits are faster reload times (realistically, is how many 2nd shots is anybody going to get with a handi-rifle?) and no messy cleanup.

 
Apparently you don't know what a 45-70 can be safely loaded to in a Handi...and I wouldn't say that a 240 grain saboted handgun bullet is as good as the Nosler 300 grain rifle bullet ...with the exception of it opening at the slower speeds...perhaps you've had good luck with your MZ...if so...I congratulate you...but from my research and talking with a bunch of die-hard MZ fans...it kind of mirrors what Randy Smith at Chuck Hawks' says about them... I kinda like this part...

With the advent of Pyrodex Pellets someone got the idea that he could load three fifty grain pellets very easily and increase velocity enough to use the concept as a means of selling more muzzleloaders. Never mind that the rifles weren't nearly as accurate; that barrels clogged up with powder debris so much that you needed to swab after every shot to even load it; that many very good muzzleloader projectiles couldn't and didn't stand up to the charge, or that the recoil was enough to shake teeth fillings loose.

There were enough claims of near miracle performance that such things were conveniently overlooked. They just weren't mentioned. Sort of a gentlemen's agreement, I guess. A few of the liars and the lucky made some 200 yard shots and the race was on to convince buyers that their company had the most up-to-date muzzleloaders with the hottest ignition systems and the highest velocities.

"Well, feller, I'll tell you what. Just step right up to the counter here and I'll sell you this "Magnum" muzzleloader (near 7mm-06 performance, as I remember) and you can kill anything on this or any other continent with a 240-grain pistol bullet. See there. I even have a photo of a Cape buffalo beside it so you can remember what a devastating killer you just bought."

The whole scam worked so well and sales were so good that some other company got the idea that if a high velocity .50 sold so well what about a high velocity .45? After all, with a lighter bullet in a smaller caliber you could claim greater velocity, greater penetration, less recoil, and a flatter trajectory. And, you could add that the old time bison hunters went from .50's to .45's and enjoyed superior performance. It all looked so good on paper that these companies even began convincing themselves of how wonderful the new high velocity .45's were.

There's only one problem with the whole notion. It looks good on paper but it doesn't work so well in the woods. Cheap high velocity projectiles that are little more than tin plated lead don't penetrate nearly was well as a heavier, slower projectile. A polymer tipped soft lead, so-called extended range bullet of 180 or 215 grains housed in a .45 caliber sabot will kill a deer but it won't do it nearly as well as a .45 caliber extended length conical at nearly 1/3 less velocity.

 
http://www.chuckhawks.com/45_muzzle_loaders.htm
 
Mac

[RT8]

At the risk of stepping in it with both feet...


Actually, I normally only shoot ~90-100 gr of powder (black) in my MZ and almost always under regular old conicle bullets...I'm not a member of the magnumitis ML crowd.

Sure, some safely (?) load their handi to ~2400 with the 300gr Nosler, but that's not the folks that's going to be buying handi rifles to keep from cleaning a ML.

Hogdgon's website lists several 100gr loads (777) at around 2000fps, 125+ should definitely improve on that, don't you think?  Sure, you may not be able to hit a bull in the @$$ from 50yds, but the velocity will be there.

Ok, so I'll give you 25yds more range with the 45-70, its still a <200yd gun on Mississippi whitetails (+-3.5" is about all the PBR you can expect to actually kill a 125lb deer with).

[quickdtoo]

Even the PMC silver 350gr loads at well over 2000fps with a 3" high at 100yd zero are only 5-6" low at 200yds out of a 22" handi and they're not a full house load, just a $20 a box factory load. I've shot this load and it is underrated as far as what I've seen it do.

The 240gr XTP with a mv of 2000fps has almost an identical trajectory to the 350gr RN used in the PMC ammo, with a 3" high at 100yd zero, it's 5.4" low at 200yds, but the 350gr PMC load has more energy at 200yds than the pistol bullet does at 100yds. At 200yds the pistol bullet has dropped below the magic 1000ft/lbs energy most consider needed for clean deer kills, although not by much at 976ft/lbs.

And a handloader can do wonderful things with the 250gr and 300gr .458' 45-70 loads!!!

If given the choice to hunt with the 45-70 or a ML in a primitive hunt, the smokepoles would become safe queens in a heart beat, no questions asked, hands down, not even considering the difference in loading methods.

As far as the 2400fps 300gr loads being unsafe in a Handi, that's not the max it's capable of, there are those here shooting hotter loads than that safely. On my 300 grain Nosler Partition load... with a muzzle velocity of 2400fps...Muzzle energy=3837ft.lbs...@ 100 yards..=2609ft.lbs.....@ 200 yards..=1609ft.lbs...@ 275 yards..=1254ft.lbs......When the rifle is sighted 3.3" high @ 100 yards....for a 4" kill zone........zero distance=161yards.........Max PBR=186yards....... for a 6" kill zone........zero=183yards....... the Max PBR=213yards....... for a 8" kill zone........zero=202yards....... the Max PBR=236yards........for a 10" kill zone........zero=219yards....... the Max PBR=255yards....... for a 12" kill zone........zero=234yards....... the Max PBR=272yards...



I don't think I'll be tradin any of my 45-70s for a ML anytime soon, that rationale just doesn't fly. :noway:  :bye:

[BAGTIC]

I oppose any 'special seasons' for anyone hunting with firearms.  Gun hunters should make their choice of weapons based on their personal preferences but no special exceptions should be made.

Any firearms can take game at any reasonable range and all far further than archers. I can endorse a special early season for bowhunters because they need to get very close and it is a benefit if the game is not spooked already.

No, I am not an archer.

[nixsrs93]

Anyone know if a Rossi 44 mag rifle would be legal during this season?  I don't see how a NEF could be legal, but a Rossi not?

If not, I will be sending in my NEF 280 for a 45-70 barrel ASAP.

Thanks,

[patton50]

The digest has to be sent to the printer in the first part of the summer to be out in mid august.  They published the law as they expected it to be changed by the rules committee.  The rule change was finalized on the last day of July.  It is in its approved form on the public notices on the MDWFP web site.  That is why the book has the black powder provision in it but the final change does not.  They realized that most people can't deal with the black powder provision & probably feared a lot of accidents.  This is direct from the Tupelo MDWFP office.  The MDWFP even has their own people confused about the law but are working hard to correct it.  Smokeless powder shells are legal but guns & ammo must be in pre 1900 types so no 44 mag or 500 S&W from what I was told.  Looks like only 45-70 & 38-55 in handi rifle line.  Also was told that scopes are legal on primative weapons so that would apply to these primative weapons as well.  Hope this helps...

[bighoof]

The digest has to be sent to the printer in the first part of the summer to be out in mid august.  They published the law as they expected it to be changed by the rules committee.  The rule change was finalized on the last day of July.  It is in its approved form on the public notices on the MDWFP web site.  That is why the book has the black powder provision in it but the final change does not.  They realized that most people can't deal with the black powder provision & probably feared a lot of accidents.  This is direct from the Tupelo MDWFP office.  The MDWFP even has their own people confused about the law but are working hard to correct it.  Smokeless powder shells are legal but guns & ammo must be in pre 1900 types so no 44 mag or 500 S&W from what I was told.  Looks like only 45-70 & 38-55 in handi rifle line.  Also was told that scopes are legal on primative weapons so that would apply to these primative weapons as well.  Hope this helps...

 
Hello, I new to the forum too, but I had to chime in some on the subject since I live in MS

Some more info, the regs state that the round has to be at least .38 cal. So 38-55, 45-70, .44, 500S&W would be included. I only know of the handi-rifle that comes in a 44mag or 500S&W in rifles that fits the criteria.

I don't see the difference in using a Encore or a H&R-NEF rifle but thats a different story all together.
Several of us (ML guys) around my parts, Brandon MS has been debating this for the past month.  How can use the word "primitive" when you can  have a muzzleloader shooting 150grs of powder (pellets are legal too) putting a 250 shockwave bullet,#209 igintion and able to use a scope (what ever size you want) I hit a mature doe last year at 100-125 yrds and she never knew what hit here so the exact load I describe above.

The exit hole; you could put your hand clean through it, Honest.

We have too many doe's in this state, but if you hunt on public land your only allowed to bag a doe during Archery and primitive weapon season. Some other WMA'S have specical permits to bag doe's during gun season. Plus now we have point resrictions and spread rescritions in place now.  

I have no problems shooting does, I can't cook antlers

Yes, I went an bought a handi-rifle in 45-70 and I'm pleased with it. Now I can use the same rifle all season long, except during bow season. I'll leave the Rem 700 to when I hunt large food plots 200yrds and over, and  If they change the rules back next year I'll go back to my knight.

I should have bought stock in the company. These rifles; the handi and BC, I was on a waiting list for 4weeks. I was told that they could sell up to 5,000 rifles this year in MS. Ever place I was on a waiting list they had on order around 200 and that was at 5 different stores. rifles. I bet you can find some cheap prices on ML's this year.

[bighoof]

I don't know if it is just for MS residents, or anybody.

Click on the link at the botton, you could win a rifle in 45-70

http://www.worldwidefirearms.com/primitiveweapons/primitiveweapons.html

[Ed in AL]

It (the drawing/contest) is for Mississippi residents only.  :x

I've worked in MS for over 18 years. I wonder if that counts?  :lol:


Edited for clarification.