Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow

[jsteele]

Let's continue our discussion about arrow trajectories.

We were wearing out our welcome on the crossbow forum.

[jsteele]

jh45gun -

I see you chose to quote from your friends at exaclibur selectively.  you chose to ignore the post that said your claim would apeear to defy physics.

The colleague at excalibur that you quoted is partly right, in that heavier projectiles hold there velocity better.

But he's wrong to imply that heavier arrows always equal better trajectories.  Here's why ,,,,

There is no such thing as a free lunch in physics.  There is a given amount of energy in a drawn bow or locked back crossbow that is constant from shot to shot.  If you want to launch a heavier than normal projectile, something has got to give.  That something is arrow velocity.  You CAN shoot heavier and heavier arrows, but they will be launched slower and slower.

And slow is death to trajectory, as dukkillr has already explained.

Everyone in shooting sports who is trying to flatten their trajectory shoots lighter projectiles faster.  Period.  Perhaps some of the gun guys will jump in here to validate that and add firearm ballastic to the mix.  There are advantages to heavy projectiles - sustained KE, better terminal performance, and less wind deflection....improved trajectory is not one.

Now for the biggest problem with your friends thinking...

The 400 or 420 gr bolts that he referred to as "light" are right in the wheelhouse of todays compound bow shooters.  I use 420 gr arrows, for example.


If you are interested and keep an open mind through this, you will find that I'm not trying to railroad you here.  We can work through it together and you will find out that today's compounds do not enjoy ANY ballastic advantage over today's crossbows.

In fact, the opposite is true.

[jh45gun]

All I know is what I see. I called a friend who's dad has the Ten Point which is faster than mine he also has been a bow hunter for years and he agrees with me that the bolts drop faster at longer ranges.That is the key longer ranges I would suppose at 20 yards both bow and xbow are flat shooting and about equal once you start getting out from where the xbow is zeroed say at 20 yards it drops faster. I know that from expirience so what can I say. I know things look good on paper but consider this:

It  been said according to Physics bumble bees should not be able to fly but they do pretty well don't they.      :roll:  :wink:

[Leverdude]

Theres alot more to balistics in an arrow than a bullet. Spine, fletching, broadhead, arrow length, arrow wieght, arrow diameter. A whole buncha variables. In simple terms you cant just use velocity & weight to figure how they will fly, & fly they do. I'v witnessed xbow bolts drop much faster than I expected at longer ranges. They weigh less than my compound arrows & start out faster but getting beyond 25 yards they start dropping quick.
I'm thinking it might be just because they are shorter & have a greater FOC than my compound arrows & want to point down sooner.

I cant honestly say either one has a distinct trajectory benefit over the other. I dont think a blanket statement like that is appropriate.

In my experience the only benefit a xbow gives is its ready all the time like a gun. I can use rests to steady my shot too. I cant hunt with one because its not legal here but if it was I'd likely do so.
I wouldnt be shooting any further than with my compound tho & for my hunting what an arrow does beyond 30 or even 25 yards just doesn't matter.

I dont buy all the newfangled obsession with speed myself. I shoot aluminum arrows from a 2 cam Martin thats likely 8 years old. They chronoed at 235fps at the shop & the "pro" was very upset I wouldnt trade my 2219's for some fancy featherweight carbon.
Thats the beauty of America, they can keep their spaceage carbonfibre light speed arrows & I can keep my boat anchors.  
They anchored 7 deer last year & not one complained I was using aluminums.   :-D

[jsteele]

jh45gun-

This is one of the bedrock assumptions in the pro-crossbow arguement, that xbows are ballistically inferior or equal to compounds.  Its on ten points website, its brought up every time crossbow legalization comes up.

And its wrong.  At best it is misinformation - at worst it is an OUTRIGHT LIE.

When you dismiss it, you are part of the problem.  After the blistering bit you posted, this should have a familiar ring ...

"Their plan is simple and right out of the other PETA’s play book. Flood the arena with misstatements, ambiguous reporting and blatant untruths to whip up the ignorant and uninformed. "

This is an example of pro crossbow "misstatement" or "blatant untruth."

And that makes you, my friend, one of the "ignorant and uninformed."


I'm giving you a chance to see the truth.  Yet you close your eyes and whisper to yourself "I do believe in fairies."

Whatever.

What other etched in stone statements of the crossbow advocate can we help shatter today?

[jsteele]

Leverdude -

You've come into our debate half way through.  You can catch a lot of good info on the crossbow forum, on the "An interesting concept" thread.   An important part that you haven't seen is an arrow trajectory calculator at the Jackson Archery website that can do a lot of the dirty ol' math for us, so we don't need to guess and speculate.

You should check it out.  You may be surprised what you learn.

One of the things you guys are forgetting that may influence your perception of arrow drop is the impact of single plane vs 2 plane sighting.  Since your eye is not in line with the arrow when you shhot a bow, you are not experiencing how much you shoot an arrow upwards at release, which masks a bit of the arch.

Also, leverdude, I think that bullet ballistics are much more complicated than you give them credit for.  Ballistic coefficient, gyroscopic spin, tip shape, boattails, .... there is a lot going on there.  Everything becomes more critical as speed increases.  You can see that with terminal performance of bullets or wind planing of broadheads.

There's a lot to learn out there!

[Leverdude]

Dude -

This is one of the bedrock assumptions in the pro-crossbow arguement, that xbows are ballistically inferior or equal to compounds.  Its on ten points website, its brought up every time crossbow legalization comes up.

And its wrong.  At best it is misinformation - at worst it is an OUTRIGHT LIE.

When you dismiss it, you are part of the problem.  After the blistering bit you posted, this should have a familiar ring ...

"Their plan is simple and right out of the other PETA’s play book. Flood the arena with misstatements, ambiguous reporting and blatant untruths to whip up the ignorant and uninformed. "

This is an example of pro crossbow "misstatement" or "blatant untruth."

And that makes you, my friend, one of the "ignorant and uninformed."


I'm giving you a chance to see the truth.  Yet you close your eyes and whisper to yourself "I do believe in fairies."

Whatever.

What other etched in stone statements of the crossbow advocate can we help shatter today?

I aint closing my eyes & whispering nothing. I havent read 10 points website & dont know what he has to say or who he is.
I was just relating my own experiences.
I also dont much care what PETA thinks but I do feel its in our best interest as hunters not to get divided over things like this.

I didn't mean for my post to be a blistering anything & apologize if it came across like that. To each his own.  

[jsteele]

[quote="Leverdude
I didn't mean for my post to be a blistering anything & apologize if it came across like that. To each his own.  [/quote]

Leverdude -

Sorry, there.  You walked into a post I had intended for jh45gun.  I tried to edit when I saw yours in between the two, but it wouldn't let me.

I added the next post hoping you wouldn't feel like I was clobbering you, specifically, with the first.

Again sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Leverdude]

No sweat.    I was thinking after the fact that you might not be talking to me anyhow.

Its a touchy thing the xbow debate. I'm a fence sitter on it myself. I cant justify not calling it archery & if they allowed it I'd likely do it.
When I see the guys clamoring over the xbows at the shop tho they make me nervous. Alot of these guys cant or dont own guns & they think you just buy one & go hunting, kinda like a fishing pole, & my fear is they might give us a bad name. Lotta people here in CT & an accidental discharge from an xbow is real likely to get noticed. Wounded deer also get noticed.
I dont feel right calling a whole group of people unethical because theyre not. There will tho, at least for the first year or two be an influx of buy & shoot guys but they wont last. Bowhunting isn't for the lazy.
My opinion here is they oughtta let us use them during the gun season in bow only areas for a year or 2 & if it works out well slip it into archery.

[jsteele]

A common misconception is that all bowhunters are totally opposed to crossbows.  I don't think that's true - I'm not and it sounds like you're not either.

I am opposed to crossbows in bowseason.

I subscribe to the lesser weapon theory - lesser weapons should be allowed in any existing season,

That means crossbows would be allowed in gun and MZ seasons.

I also think they should get their own season.

But I do not think they belong in bowseason.  Crossbows are superior weapons to bows - even high tech compounds.

[Mike357mag]

A separate season great idea:

I think we take the first two weeks of archery season and make it for traditional bows only.  No compounds or crossbows. Then the next two weeks can be for Crossbows and traditional equipment only. Whats left of the archery season can be for everybody.

Mike H

[jh45gun]

A common misconception is that all bowhunters are totally opposed to crossbows.  I don't think that's true - I'm not and it sounds like you're not either.

I am opposed to crossbows in bowseason.

I subscribe to the lesser weapon theory - lesser weapons should be allowed in any existing season,

That means crossbows would be allowed in gun and MZ seasons.

I also think they should get their own season.

But I do not think they belong in bowseason.  Crossbows are superior weapons to bows - even high tech compounds.

Back to the ME syndrome I am not against it as long as it does not affect ME. What BS! Of couse you call for the lesser weapon theroy that way you would not have to contend with xbows in a bow season when a xbow is a bow. You have already heard from me and lever dude and I bet others will say too that the xbow bolts drop faster what does it take? Back to the bumble bee thats physics too in the real world where it does not add up on paper does it!!!
Argue all you want if it shoot a arrow either vertical or horizontal it is archery equipment and should be allowed in achery season. You are telling me I am narrow minded on the subject because I do not listen to your charts yet any thing I say you dismiss too. You still have not answered the chart situation as the xbow chart starts out with a 20 yard zero and the arrow chart starts out with a 0 start out to a 100 yards with no zero info. In the perfect world      we do not start out at 0 yards.

[jh45gun]

A common misconception is that all bowhunters are totally opposed to crossbows.  I don't think that's true - I'm not and it sounds like you're not either.

I am opposed to crossbows in bowseason.

I subscribe to the lesser weapon theory - lesser weapons should be allowed in any existing season,

That means crossbows would be allowed in gun and MZ seasons.

I also think they should get their own season.

But I do not think they belong in bowseason.  Crossbows are superior weapons to bows - even high tech compounds.

If you ever hunted with a xbow you would soon find out it is not superior to a bow. but that BS statement seems to be used by bowhunters against xbows. I do not understand the big issue of every one saying drawing the bow is more movement than bringing up the xbow to the shoulder. You should be able to draw while your bringing up the bow for a shot.

[jsteele]

A separate season great idea:

I think we take the first two weeks of archery season and make it for traditional bows only.  No compounds or crossbows. Then the next two weeks can be for Crossbows and traditional equipment only. Whats left of the archery season can be for everybody.

Mike H

Typical.

You take your season and leave nothing for the compounder?  Yea, that's fair.

You are proving to be very good at making enemies ... I wonder how you'll do when the time comes to make allies?

[jsteele]

[quote="jh45gun You still have not answered the chart situation as the xbow chart starts out with a 20 yard zero and the arrow chart starts out with a 0 start out to a 100 yards with no zero info. In the perfect world      we do not start out at 0 yards.[/quote]

Actually, in a perfect world, we do start out at 0 yds.  An arrow starts to fall the instant it leaves the rest due to gravity.

I'm growing a bit weary of your absolute refusal to deal with physical law in regards to arrow flight.  

If your xbow truly does launch a bolt at 225 fps, then you are right - it drops more than many bows.  You should get a new crossbow, because yours is an absolute dog.

Look in the Cabela's catalog.  Average xbow is 320 fps.  The arrow chart that Digger sent out shows Excalibur Exomag shooting 352 fps!  You are an ostrich with your head in the sand refusing to see the truth that is all around you.  If you cannot grasp reality, there is no point discussing it further.  Realize this, however - you are wrong.

If you do not understand the difference between drawing a bow in the presence of game and shouldering a weapon, you have never bowhunted or you are a liar.

Shouldering your xbow is no different than shouldering my slug gun, which I do every year.  That is much, much simpler than drawing my bow in front of a buck.

You may convince those who have never done either, but you will NEVER convince a bowhunter.

More misrepresentations and blatant untruths from the crossbow camp.

(here, let me add the icons you seem to enjoy so much....           )

[Mike357mag]

jsteele whats the enemy/allies crap is this an elementary school or something.  Tell me why does it matter who is first.  I have no problem with all three being used in the same season but if people want a different season I see nothing wrong with shaving a few weeks out of archery season.  Whats typical is some whiners trying to mess up a good thing,  the more choices a person has the more freedom a person has.  Why are you so concerned what another hunter is using to kill a deer with as long as it is legal.  Funny nobody can answer the big question:  why do you care if somebody is using a crossbow during archery season?  You are still allowed to use your compound if you want to.  

My whole idea of a separate seasons line up was to get people to feel upset at the idea somebody wants to limit their options, just as some people here would like to do to others.  Obviously answering "typical" my point got across.

Mike H

[jh45gun]

He is so tied up into the me syndrome Mike he will not listen anyway. I would love a better xbow Jsteele you want to buy it for me? Being on SS disability I am lucky I could afford the one I have. At a 150 pound pull it works and kills deer.  Speed is not always the answer and folks have been killing deer and other animals with no frills equip for years. it sounds to me that you have to have the best of every thing and do not want any other folks in the woods either so you can kill YOUR deer. Bah its folks like you who give archery a bad name not the xbow hunters or other hunters who do not care who is hunting in the archery season just as long as they hunt. You already stated you do not care if folks use xbows as long as they do not hunt in your season so do not try to weasel out of it. You sound like a elitist to me.

[Leverdude]

A common misconception is that all bowhunters are totally opposed to crossbows.  I don't think that's true - I'm not and it sounds like you're not either.

I am opposed to crossbows in bowseason.

I subscribe to the lesser weapon theory - lesser weapons should be allowed in any existing season,

That means crossbows would be allowed in gun and MZ seasons.

I also think they should get their own season.

But I do not think they belong in bowseason.  Crossbows are superior weapons to bows - even high tech compounds.

Its not so much that I wouldn't welcome xbows to the archery season.
I think they are archery equiptment & theyre not long range weapons anymore than compounds are. They may be easier to become proficient with but that doesn't matter either. That they can cleanly kill deer is what matters IMO. If it gets more folks into hunting thats a good thing too.
I tend to resist change & in this case I may be wrong for it.
Hunters get a bad rap where I live frequently & the xbow debate brings hunting into the spotlight in a way that doesnt often make us look good.
I mostly dont much care how other people hunt & dont understand the big deal. We can bowhunt right thru all the other seasons in CT & I do. I dont think xbows would hurt anything after the initial bad press & gung ho yahoo's run their course.
I look at it like gun season, I can shoot a whizbang superflat magnum with a 24 power scope, or I can use a 357 lever action. My choice.  :grin:
Same with muzzleloaders, you can shoot a smooth bore flint lock with round ball or an inline with pyrodex pellets shooting a saboted bullet with a scope. My choice.  :grin:
I guess I'd like to be able to hunt with a crossbow as well as a compound too. My choice.  :grin:

IMO they are definately an easier tool to kill a deer with but its still definately archery.

[jh45gun]

Lever Dude you have hit the nail on the head it all boils down to choice I could care less if Jsteele had a bow in each hand and one stuck some where thats fine with me but he should not tell me or others on what or what we cannot use or when we can use it as long as there is a season for it and it is legal which it is getting to be more popular all the time. Jsteele I do not know how old you are but I am 53 and have been hunting with a bow since I have been 12. Shooting a bow before that so that is over 40 + years of archery use. I have killed lots of deer with a bow and even Canadian geese along with grouse.  Unless you are as old as me and have as many years with a bow you cannot convince me you know it all either.  I am not claiming to know it all but I have been around the block enough with a bow in my hand that I am no rookie either though you seem to think I am. You make it sound like it is a great mystery to kill a deer with a bow and that if you move you will never kill a deer. That is not always true some deer are so curious they just look at you to see what the heck you are doing both bucks and does.  I think you are a elitist that is dead set against xbows period but you have to say you do not mind if old guys or handicapped guys use them just so you do not appear like a ass. And that is with the exclusion that they do not hunt during your season.  I have enough years under my belt hunting that I know of what I speak from my past expiriences I do not have to have some one that thinks they know it all tell me I am wrong. I am comfortable knowing what I have said is true and honest to the best of what I have expirienced in life and that is good enough for me. One more thing get used to xbows as they will not be going away any time soon they are more popular now then they ever have been.

[jh45gun]

Speed also is not every thing I know a lot of folks are shooting lighter arrows to get that speed but a lot of guys still rely on heavy arrows too for more punch at a longer distance.  You cannot go by what the catalogs say about speed either as a lot of them use the lightest arrow possible to show that speed yet a hunter may use a heavier arrow that would slow that speed down considerable. That goes for bows and xbows. You picked out one of the fastest xbows on the market so yea that is flatter shooting as would be a faster bow but not all of us can afford such equipment I know I cannot. SO what do you do you practice until you know where your arrow is going with your equipment at ranges you can hit at. When you start to miss you have reached your limit and even then staying under 40 yards is about it for most archers and with my xbow the manufacter says to stay under 40 yards. I would prefer to stay under 35 considering the power of my xbow and that is still powerfull enough to get a pass through no problem. First deer I ever killed with a bow was a fork horn buck shooting a Ben Pearson Recurve 42# Why 42# because that is what I could hold comfortable yet it killed deer just fine and it did not have to have the blazing speed that folks depend on today. I got a bow on the wall that belonged to my dead hunting partner. It is a Ben Pearson compound that he hunted with until he died. You could watch the arrow all the way to the target it was so slow yet he killed more deer with that bow than most folks ever will. So until I get a better xbow if I ever do it does not have to be a speed demon to get the job done at 225FPS   150 # that is still fast enough  and powerful to do the job at normal hunting distances.

[jsteele]

My whole idea of a separate seasons line up was to get people to feel upset at the idea somebody wants to limit their options, just as some people here would like to do to others.  Obviously answering "typical" my point got across.

Mike H

In case you didn't notice, your "separate season" schedule did not include compounds.  You had exclusive seasons for traditional and crossbow.

You did exactly what those big bad bowhunters are worried that you are going to do - you stole their bowseason!

Not to mention the hypocrisy of being "exclusionary".... a word I hear way too often these days.


You said "Whats typical is some whiners trying to mess up a good thing"

Funny .... that's exactly what I've been thinking.

[jsteele]

 I would love a better xbow Jsteele you want to buy it for me? Being on SS disability I am lucky I could afford the one I have. At a 150 pound pull it works and kills deer.  Speed is not always the answer and folks have been killing deer and other animals with no frills equip for years.

That's very true.  Kinda like the recurve I shoot, huh?

But don't try to characterize ALL crossbows by insinuating that yours is typical.  Its not.

Most crossbows spank your crossbow in terms of performance, and the average crossbow will spank the average bow.  You need to play fair or lose all credibility.

[jsteele]

 You already stated you do not care if folks use xbows as long as they do not hunt in your season so do not try to weasel out of it. You sound like a elitist to me.

Why would I weasel?  That is exactly my position.  

There is nothing evil or wrong about a crossbow.  The people who own them should have a right to hunt with them, same as bows, handguns, MZ, and rifles.

It is wrong that many states do not allow them, period.  I think forcing crossbows in rifle season is unfair too, although I believe they should be allowed to hunt their if they choose to.

BUT .... It is my opinion that they do not belong in bow season.

I realize that a separate crossbow season means that it has to come from somewhere, and I would have no problem giving away some of bowseason to xbows.  I also think a late season for crossbows makes a lot of sense, too...a lot of northern bowhunters would probably buy one in that case, since it gets so cold that its hard to draw a bow.

You guys are the one's getting tense and atigated and calling names, here.  I'm trying to discuss these things rationally and point by point try to strip away some of the "misinformation and blatant untruths" that are coming from both sides.

You say I'm an elitist for not wanting crossbows in bow season - so be it.  If it makes you feel better, I don't want Muzzleloaders in bow season either (and fought a serious battle to keep them out this last winter and spring.)  I don't want handguns, slug guns, or rifles in bowseason as well.

Bow season is for bowhunting.  If folks want to hunt in bowseason, then they know what to do - get a bow and join me.

[Mike357mag]

The everybody else would include all archery equipment that includes compounds I just intentionally made that last and shared with the other archers.

Mike H

I'm done with this I no longer care to listen to people whine about crossbows when they never can answer why it matters what somebody else is using, its their option.  If you are suffering from the my deer syndrome please go mark your deer with paint or something so everybody will know its yours.  A 3 inch bullseye, oops I meant circle would do nicely.

Mike H

[jh45gun]

Bow season is for bowhunting. If folks want to hunt in bowseason, then they know what to do - get a bow and join me.

 I understand why you want to protect your season but most states call it archery season and guess what a xbow is included in archery. Yea I would not want muzzle loaders in bow season either and in WI we do have our own season for them though it is in Dec we have a late archery season too and I will tell you when it gets 20 below I do not care to hunt with any weapon too darn cold for me since I have bad circulation so if they made a xbow season in Dec it would not be worth a crap for folks like me. When you have archery season and rifle season and muzzle loader season that pretty much takes all fall and into early winter so where would you put a xbow season that is separate not much choices there and for xbows to compete against rifles and muzzle loaders as you suggest is more of a disadvantage than the xbow/ bow debate we  have been having.  I suppose there are no easy answers here for folks that are against xbows in archery season but in the states that allow it for every oen they have not had any problems nor has the xbow decimated the deer heard at all. These arguements are about as silly as the anti gun folks saying Concealed Carry will make the streets like the old west. Will not happen and did not happen.Same with xbows in archery season it will not make a huge impact on the deer herd.

[jsteele]

[quote="Mike357magI'm done with this I no longer care to listen to people whine about crossbows when they never can answer why it matters what somebody else is using, its their option.  
Mike H[/quote]

Why does it matter what someone else is using?

Its BOW season - use a BOW.  If you want to use something other than a bow, then find a different season.

It seems pretty simple to me.  It also seems that YOU are the one that's whining about adding crossbows to bowseason.

[jsteele]

Bow season is for bowhunting. If folks want to hunt in bowseason, then they know what to do - get a bow and join me.

 I understand why you want to protect your season but most states call it archery season and guess what a xbow is included in archery.

Well, now, that would be the crux of our debate, wouldn't it?

I'm telling you...most bowhunters would be OK with a split season with crossbows (and many would even buy one), but sharing the whole season means that bowhunters are agreeing that a crossbow is a bow.

Its NOT...so they won't agree to that.

I see that your main reason for opposing crossbows for the late archery season is that it would inconvenience YOU - how ironic.

[jh45gun]

Do not know where you live but northern WI in Dec is no fun to hunt for anyone if it gets real cold. I like to hunt so I can enjoy my self and yea I have hunted in Dec but after rifle season and muzzle loader season it takes a good couple of weeks to get the deer settled down and by then it can be darn cold and near the end of the season so yea it is a inconvenience to me and I would not care for it. On that I will be more than honest some folks may like the cold and the hunt but I know few that do. Some hunt it if they have tags left and a last ditch attempt to get a deer.

I'm telling you...most bowhunters would be OK with a split season with crossbows (and many would even buy one), but sharing the whole season means that bowhunters are agreeing that a crossbow is a bow.

Its NOT...so they won't agree to that.

Reminds me of that old saying if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it must be a duck

Well it has limbs and a string and shoots arrows. Sounds like a bow to me.  I am sure the deer that gets killed by a arrow gives a rats ass if it came from a xbow or bow it is still dead by an arrow.

 I talked to the guy who owns the local archery shop today he said it all boils down to the power stroke the longer the power stroke the more effiecient and bows have a longer power stroke because of the longer arrows kinda what I have been trying to say all along. Now you going to disagree with him too? I mean he only owns the archery shop and makes his living at it so he knows nothing right?  :roll:  Yea my xbow could be more efficient to a point as it has a shorter power stroke than some of the others but at a shorter range it is right with the others it is only at longer distances it begins to suffer so what does that mean. It means shorter shots and if they are longer how to compensate so your arrow still hits the place you want it to. That all comes with practice so it handicaps me some but not that much. For my red dot that has 3 stacked dots  that I just bought from a friend I called the Co. and  for folks with 300 fps xbows they said to sight it in at 30 with the middle dot and then it would be good for 20/30/ 40. For my xbow they told me to sight the middle dot in at 25 for  15/25/35 so I am losing 5 yards I can live with that. So you may think it is weak tit but 5 yards is no big deal in performance anything over 35 yards is a pretty long shot anyway for most folks. Or that is what most claim to shoot at anyway.

[jh45gun]

Just looking through my outdoor books and found a book called Bow and Arrow by Larry Wise a World Champion Archer. The first chapter is called:

Choosing a Bow
Long Bows 3
Recurve Bows 9
Compound Bows 17
CROSSBOWS 37
The Stored Enery of Bows 44

Imagine that.

 

THe interesting thing is I have checked out other bow related books and they have crossbows in them too. Who would have thunk it.  :roll:

[dukkillr]

Well I'm sold now.  If only I'd known of that book sooner all of this discussion and logic could have been avoided.