Author Topic: Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow (Read 8291 times)

Stalker · « **Reply #120 on:** September 06, 2005, 01:27:10 PM »

In other words......

"you know..... he's right.... I really don't understand.... so I'll just keep regurgitating what I have said before and hope no one notices..... and then I'll play the old "I know you are but what am I shtick...."

dude, you should read the posts again.... and if that's all you keep coming up with I can't help you..... oh and I'm sure that you are an expert at cruising the archery boards but it would appear that your experience and knowledge ends there.......

jh45gun · « **Reply #121 on:** September 06, 2005, 01:38:46 PM »

Quote from: jsteele

Quote from: Stalker

in addition you're right I don't pull a 200# recurve actually mine pulls 80# @ 28" but since I have a 30" draw it's a bit more.... and a friend of mine pulls a custom made compound set at 110#'s but I digress.....

Who cares what your friend pulls ....

Pull the 200# or shut up, wimp!

YOU are the one who said there's no difference ... Put up or shut up.

Hunt with a 200# recurve or be branded a big fat liar.

Further more, who gives a flying turd about 150# crossbows? Look in Bass Pro.... average crossbow is 320 fps. Average bow is less than 300 IBO, and nobody hunts IBO.

The head designer of Newberry bows states that he will design a 450+ fps crossbow this year....Still don't care? I do. Its not bowhunting.

Spoken like a true troll you are stuck so now you attack. If you knew anything about xbows at all you would know they loose energy faster so that is why they need that speed and the poundage to equal a 60 to 70 pound vertical bow. Go away little troll and go play where the other trolls play and leave us here that know of what we speak.

Leverdude · « **Reply #122 on:** September 06, 2005, 02:25:58 PM »

Jim,

How do you decock it? Mines second hand & didn't have all the literature or the manual. I'v done it just to see if I can, but dont know the right way so to speak.

Stalker · « **Reply #123 on:** September 06, 2005, 02:35:59 PM »

Leverdude..... just my personal opinion but I decock the x-bow by firing an old arrow into the ground or a small portable target.... they can be unloaded by pulling back on the string until the pressure is taken off of the sear and then hitting the trigger with your thumb..... make sure you really have a good hold on that string though.... then ease the string down.....

anyways guy's I'm off to set up some stands and brush out some lanes..... just in case you are going hunting before I get back..... be safe and good luck...

jh45gun · « **Reply #124 on:** September 06, 2005, 03:07:13 PM »

Quote from: Leverdude

Jim,

How do you decock it? Mines second hand & didn't have all the literature or the manual. I'v done it just to see if I can, but dont know the right way so to speak.

Best way is like Stalker said shoot a old bolt/arrow to uncock it that is the easiest way and easier on you. I use a bolt that has a judo point on it so I do not loose the bolt or I some times carry a target ( I got the dense foam one) that is set up and shoot which gives me more practice every time I go out I just use a bolt with a field tip. If is getting two dark to shoot then I use the bolt with the Judo point and shoot at a clump of grass or what ever to uncock it at close range 8 to 10 feet. If it is light enough out I set up the target quick and shoot at 20 yards. That way I can always make sure my sight is on all the time too.

jh45gun · « **Reply #125 on:** September 06, 2005, 03:09:09 PM »

Hunting here stalker does not start until the 17th. Good luck hunting your self! :grin:

jh45gun · « **Reply #126 on:** September 06, 2005, 03:18:08 PM »

Leverdude what brand and model did you get? The biggest thing about xbows is making sure you have a good string on it when the server starts to wear bad it is time to replace the string or get the server redone if the string is still in good shape I just replace the string. Just make sure you keep the rail lubed about every 15 shots and keep the string waxed well this will keep the string in better shape longer. If your not sure about the string you may want to have the local archery shop check it out for you. Considering the poundage I let the local bow shop use their press to change my strings. I practice quite a bit so I go through a string a season. They only cost between 8 and 12 bucks for mine so that is not a expensive situation. If it is a compound xbow keeping all the parts tight and lubed is a good maintenence. Along with the rail and string lubrication. If a recurve keep every thing tight and keep the rail and string lubed. What ever brand it is most of them you can download a manual on their websites at least you can for Barnett xbows and I would think the other brands you can too.

Leverdude · « **Reply #127 on:** September 06, 2005, 03:47:51 PM »

Its a Barnett recurve, Wildcat I believe it says & 150#. I decocked it using both your methods & like shooting it better than letting it down. I thought maybe they had a tool for it or something.

It came with 2 extra strings & I'm bout to put the last one on pretty soon. What do you lube the rail with? I put string wax on it but aint sure thats right.

jh45gun · « **Reply #128 on:** September 06, 2005, 04:50:42 PM »

Several Different Companies make a rail Lube Horton makes one of them. it is expensive though and this subject was brought up at the excaliber site I will post what they all use.

Barnett's US web site http://www.barnettcrossbows.com/recurves.htm

Has the Panzer listed which is a newer version of th Wildcat. The English site http://www.barnettcrossbows-uk.com/recurve.htm Has the Wild cat listed it may be a newer version of yours but the manual should be close enough. Both these links will provide manuals and info you can download.

Well I could not find the thread for rail lubes but different companies make them others may use string wax though I would think that that would not be as fast. A grease mixed with bees wax would work I bet or a thick silicon based oil. Bottom line is to keep it slick so the string does not drag and wear.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #129 on:** September 07, 2005, 08:46:18 PM »

Here's an interesting link for all of you...I hope it may clear up some misinformation concerning historical facts...http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/history.htm

It's interesting to note...when one uses a crossbow...he is known as a crossbowman...not an archer.....and what is fired from them is refered to as " Bolts"...gee...do you think they changed terminology just to get around the truth and to make it more palitable for the genneral public to see them in a more favorable light...hmmmmmmm?

Since everyone else has had a go at this...I might as well put my $.02 worth in the hat.

The name of the thread is what... Arrow physics..crossbow vs bow...which is rather misleading...since it's mainly a continuation of a very tired old argument from around the country.This has been hashed as many...if not more than " Which is better...the 270 or 30-06...or...pistol vs autoloader 9mm vs 45 acp...ect...ect...ect..." and it is clearly a lose-lose situation for anyone entering into it...namely because those that oppose crossbows...won't truely accept them...and those that are adament about them...think they are superior to anything else on the market...both sides are wrong...they aren't superior...and they are here to stay...at least for now...

Let's face facts..the advantage of using a CB over any other type of bow is that it is shoulder fired and you can use hunting rest for it in the field,it lends itself to telescopic sites easier,and it can remain at full draw without holding it.It is no wonder that those who use them find them so much easier than any other type...does this mean they are more advanced...nope...does this mean they are better....nope...does it give those who use them an advantage over non-CB's..yep...it sure does..but...let's go the other way for a minute...Are compound bows that difficult to master...no not really..just more time intinsive...are they at a technological dis-advantage...not in the least...ask Hoyt,Pearson,Mathews,Bear,Browning how much they spend on reasearch for them...can't scopes be used on them...sure...they are just not seen as much...isn't there devices that hold the string at full draw for wheel bows...sure...but they are bulky, expensive and not the quickest to use...so.....seems like those arguments are really a wash...but what about arrow speed...after all...we all want those 500fps screamers don't we...well...not all of us at least not me...but why...well...it's like this...some of us mind you...know that we will never get the shock effect on the deer like what is gotten from a rifle,pistol,shotgun...and unlike a good bullet...wind drift will keep us still limited in yardages...and...while we are shooting " Dogs"...our bows will last for years and years...and still kill deer cleanly and be a-lot quiter in the process...my 237fps recurve is quite...light...and a real pleasure to hike all over any woods mountains or hills...I can't really say that about any CB or wheel bow...do I think it a dog...hardly...but I got a chuckle out of the gent that thought someones elses bow was that...just because it wasn't as fast as his...childish...very childish....I could say a-lot more...but that would only start another argument...so...I'll end it here...enjoy the link...and click on the additional link on that site in the article...a most interesting read for those really interested in accurate historical facts and timelines...

Have a Great 1

jh45gun · « **Reply #130 on:** September 07, 2005, 09:57:32 PM »

Thanks Mac good post and one that says it from a other angle. Jim

jh45gun · « **Reply #131 on:** September 07, 2005, 10:03:07 PM »

Oops forgot Mac thanks for the interesting link. :grin:

jsteele · « **Reply #132 on:** September 09, 2005, 01:02:30 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700

It's interesting to note...when one uses a crossbow...he is known as a crossbowman...not an archer.....and what is fired from them is refered to as " Bolts"...gee...do you think they changed terminology just to get around the truth and to make it more palitable for the genneral public to see them in a more favorable light...hmmmmmmm?

Yup. I figure that's why they suddenly determined that a crossbow shoots "arrows", too.

I know our "crossbowmen" will beg to differ, though....

jh45gun · « **Reply #133 on:** September 09, 2005, 04:13:07 PM »

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ARROW AND A BOLT IS THE NOCK USED. A BOLT IS A ARROW PERIOD. SAME SHAFT SAME FEATHERS AND SAME BROADHEADS OR TARGET POINTS. In fact some crossbows use regular arrow nocks instead of the flat nocks or half moon nocks. So your post again is based on your ignorance of the xbow. No denying that the xbow was considered evil but for the only reason as it could defeat armor over what a bow could do. So the Church and the knights considered evil as it could kill them where a bow could not. Now before we get into the arguement again of arrow power and speed those xbows were a lot more powerfull than what we are talking about as a hunting xbow.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #134 on:** September 09, 2005, 07:09:38 PM »

jh45gun:

Quote

So your post again is based on your ignorance of the xbow. No denying that the xbow was considered evil but for the only reason as it could defeat armor over what a bow could do. So the Church and the knights considered evil as it could kill them where a bow could not. Now before we get into the arguement again of arrow power and speed those xbows were a lot more powerfull than what we are talking about as a hunting xbow.

Actually it was my post about the differences...and truthfully...the major difference between a " bolt" and an arrow..was their diameter and head composition...They weren't just arrows Bro...they were similar but totally a different concept with a bronze footed shaft and nock cap...at one time they even tried complete metal with ribbing for vanes...but the accuracy wasn't good for over 100 yards..It wasn't till the early 1950's that they started incorporating shorter heavier metal arrows... with the advent of the better aluminum arrows has come a rash of different developments as well with both type weapons...One of the main newer developments was the addition of a overdraw shelf for the compounds..one just needs to look at the " Overdraw " to see the direction of compound bows are headed..along with the 80-90% let off's..sheeeeese.. :roll:

For what it's worth...I could care less for either type of weapon...as compared to what's hanging on my wall...both types are noisy and heavy and cumbersome...sure...they both my be faster but they aren't as accurate or as versatile...see.... I'm one of those Traditionalist...who know's how to be stealthy and sneak up within 20 yards or closer to my deer...and my weapon has to be quite, light and mobile...neither a crossbow...or a compound fits my needs...I may have to crawl and shoot from a upsidedown position from under a log...this is something neither a crossbow...or compound can do....if I want to break it down and carry it in my backquiver...I can do so...neither of the others can do this...I don't have to worry about anything moving,getting knocked out of alignment,string twisting to move the peepsite,rails becoming clogged with debris and messing up my shot...and neither of them can be made quite...period...it may be made quieter...but not quite.This is the price of speed guys...and it cannot be changed...and even speed isn't all it's cracked up to be...I've seen a deer completely drop turn and be gone before a carbon arrow from a 325fps bow got to it at 20yards...

I used to use a compound..and honestly in the end.. it was more trouble to me than it was worth...and I just plain got tired of the rat race with them...plus with all the mechanical do-dads...it just wasn't archery to me anymore.I also never had much use for any crossbows..sure..for some the appeal is there...and others who have a physical handicap it's a necessity...but if I wanted to go to the trouble of using a shoulder fired weapon...a rifle was more appropriate to me.

I see the debate here of both camps..and think it's rather amusing...not too long ago...the same division was evident between tradisionalist and compounds...for me...I would prefere both types stays out of my neck of the woods...they just make too much noise for my liking...

Mac

jh45gun · « **Reply #135 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:35:36 AM »

Mac I was adressing Jsteele's comment: Yup. I figure that's why they suddenly determined that a crossbow shoots "arrows", too.

I know our "crossbowmen" will beg to differ, though....

And I was basically talking about modern arrows/bolts though I did ramble why the xbow was considered evil in ancient times. I agree using a recurve or straight bow is archery hunting in its purest form. Still lots of guys still use compounds and with all the gadets yet are against xbows which is goofy considering no matter what a arrow is shot out of recurve, compound or xbow you still only have a limited range. For some folks that cannot pull back a recurve well then a compound with lots of let off or xbow is the answer to keep them hunting. To be honest we should be argueing not what you use but how well you use it. A poorly shot deer is not a good thing yet I have heard more than one bow hunter exclaim well I hit one but did not get it so I will keep trying.THis really grates on me and I also think a lot of deer get hit and the guys shooting them no crap about tracking a wounded deer. They go from a few yards to maybe 50 and if they do not find blood or the arrow they figure they missed. :x Leaving a deer to die if it is hit good or in the guts. Another thing that bugs me is these deer shows on TV where the guy admits he made a bad shot but still gets the deer. I think this prompts guys to take shots they should not take. These guys on TV should stress that you wait for a good shot or do not take it. More than once in fact this morning a guy on TV made the comment well I hit it high and I think too far back so I will wait to see if I got it and yea he did, or did he? With film editing who knows. I have seen them comment on a miss but never a wounded deer and I would bet it happens to them too as you show me a guy who says he never wounded a deer I will show you a liar it happens to all of us one time or the other. Stil we have to make our best shot to make sure that occurance is rare.

jh45gun · « **Reply #136 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:53:03 AM »

Comment on the above post. My success ratio for deer killed is good I normally get what I shoot at but I have had a couple that I did not get and I have lost a couple with a rifle too. No matter how good the shot looks sometimes you do not get the deer. I think that probably most guys who are interested enough to use these forums hunt responsible enough to make every effort to get what they shoot but not always. I got in a arguement with a other guy on a other site that made the comment " . that there are worst things than a wounded deer" Yea I know there are but to a hunter it leaves a feeling in your gut you screwed up and did not do your job. I hope that anyone has that opinion on wounded deer reconsider.

jsteele · « **Reply #137 on:** September 10, 2005, 02:33:05 AM »

Jh45gun -

On that we can agree.

There are very few things in hunting worse than wounding. Some are much too cavalier about it, and I feel that shows a lack of respect for our quarry. Its true that most every hunter will lose one sooner or later, but we can increase the probability of a clean kill by using good judgement.

No matter what weapon you use, I join you in encouraging all hunters to stay well within their lethal range and use exceptional judgement when making shot selections.

jsteele · « **Reply #138 on:** September 10, 2005, 02:35:34 AM »

Quote from: jh45gun

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ARROW AND A BOLT IS THE NOCK USED. A BOLT IS A ARROW PERIOD. SAME SHAFT SAME FEATHERS AND SAME BROADHEADS OR TARGET POINTS.

Then, bringing this whole thread back on topic, you should agree that there is nothing magical about the physics of a bolt that would make it underperform and defy the physical sciences, right?

Touche'

jh45gun · « **Reply #139 on:** September 10, 2005, 02:58:26 AM »

On the wounding yea we agree :grin: about the arrows you would have to shoot one to see. I would suppose it all depends on equip but a lot of folks I have talked to that shoot both agree with me that the shorter arrow looses velocity better than a longer one does. I suppose you could test this if you had a over draw bow and shot a short arrow and a longer one out of it and see where the impact was. I will state this and it does not make sense at first but I know what I see. Most all the arrows I shoot are 2117's or 2216's which are reccomended by Barnett for my xbow and I had sighted in for 20 yards. This year I will be useing a stacked 3 dot sight so I will be setting the middle dot at 25 yards. If you look on a arrow chart the spline rate for these are identical or darn close to it and both shoot to poa. Now they also say you can shoot 2219's if you want which is a heavier arrow and these out of my xbow at 20 yards will shoot considerably higher. Higher to the point that I have shot over the target. Just as a heavier bullet will shoot higher in a pistol so it seems the heavier arrow will too meaning it is holding its energy better. Now this does not really sound right as you would think the heavier arrow would drop faster but it does not. It may be slower but it holds its energy better same as conical shoots farther with more energy than a round ball does out of a muzzle loader. Lots of variables here in play that may always not apply on paper.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #140 on:** September 10, 2005, 07:37:50 AM »

jh45gun:

When you go from a lighter weight arrow to a heavier weight arrow the reason it is shooting high with your current set up is because the sites are adjusted down for the flatter trajectory and spine of the lighter weight arrow. Lighter weight shafts with less spine flex more than heavier weight ones..Due to the spine difference..the arrow rate of deflection is less thus causing it to be launched at at higher angle...you really need to look at some of the high speed films showing arrow flights and what they are actually doing.A lighter arrow with a lighter spine rate will not stabilize as quickly as a heavier weighted arrow..

jsteele:

The argument of long skinny shafts holding a better trajectory than short fat ones is a moot point at the ranges involved for many reasons,the argument isn't at rifle ranges...the argument is at 50 yards or less correct? Since there are 2 totally different types of equipment flinging the shaft down range..there is not valid way of comparing the two.One can only say for certain which preforms the best off his equipment...the deflection of the arrow off a set of rails on a crossbow...will be different to that of a compund's tiny bearing surface used...good grief...you still have a string that is imparting flex and torque onto the arrow.....the only way this argument can be resolved is to look at the compressed air guns that are shooting arrows...and this has absolutly nothing in common with any bow.. simply which arrow will give the best response to that set up...

Mac.

jh45gun · « **Reply #141 on:** September 10, 2005, 10:06:18 AM »

Thanks for the explanation Mac.

jsteele · « **Reply #142 on:** September 10, 2005, 10:46:11 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700

jsteele:

The argument of long skinny shafts holding a better trajectory than short fat ones is a moot point at the ranges involved for many reasons,the argument isn't at rifle ranges...the argument is at 50 yards or less correct? Since there are 2 totally different types of equipment flinging the shaft down range..there is not valid way of comparing the two.One can only say for certain which preforms the best off his equipment...the deflection of the arrow off a set of rails on a crossbow...will be different to that of a compund's tiny bearing surface used...good grief...you still have a string that is imparting flex and torque onto the arrow.....the only way this argument can be resolved is to look at the compressed air guns that are shooting arrows...and this has absolutly nothing in common with any bow.. simply which arrow will give the best response to that set up...

Mac.

Simply not true.

Physical law can calculate, define, and predict the trajectory of arrows more accurately than you can shoot them.

Launch velocity dominates the calculations. Typical crossbows launch similar weight arrows faster than typical compounds.

Therefore, compounds do not outperform crossbows. In fact, the opposite is true.

Stalker · « **Reply #143 on:** September 10, 2005, 11:39:57 AM »

[/quote]Physical law can calculate, define, and predict the trajectory of arrows more accurately than you can shoot them.

Launch velocity dominates the calculations. Typical crossbows launch similar weight arrows faster than typical compounds.

Quote

As far as your arguments go jsteele I have to agree with the above statement....which is different..... :-)

I even agree with the word "typical" because x-bows shoot a consistant weight regardless of the shooter and the large number of bowhunters (we are also including women in the count)... shoot lighter weight bows.......

I would have to disgree with you about the statement...

Therefore, compounds do not outperform crossbows. In fact, the opposite is true.

Quote

My target bow is a Darton Maverick, 30" draw set @ 56lbs and shoots a 350 grain arrow 286 ft/sec....... an Excalibur Exomag (200 lbs) with a 16.5" draw length will shoot the same arrow weight 330 ft/sec...... (these numbers are from the same shop and through the same chrono)... on the surface your statement would appear correct and if your statement is made purely on the given criteria I will agree with you..... but.... if we take the standard of a 2 ft/sec increase in arrow speed for each pound of increased draw weight it would take an increase to 78 lbs to get the same arrow speed from the compound..... I think you will agree that there are a large number of hunters using bows in this weight range..... which makes the superior weapon argument moot...... but it's fairly easy to see that from an "efficiency" perspective the compound wins "hands down" in that it takes 78 lbs of force acting over 30" and the x-bow requires 200 lbs over 16.5" to acheive the same ratings.......

Mac11700 is right that this debate is a quagmire.....

Stalker · « **Reply #144 on:** September 10, 2005, 11:46:32 AM »

my bad on the screwed up post.... made some changes and didn't check the quotes...... :oops:

jsteele · « **Reply #145 on:** September 10, 2005, 11:55:24 AM »

I do not disagree that compounds are more efficient due to the longer power stroke. And I do not disagree with your calculations (except you will void any warranty on your bow shooting those arrows at 78# - that would be below IBO weight and dangerously close to dry firing).

Remember, what JH45gun claimed was that crossbows are ballistically inferior to compounds.

That's just not true. There is not a high percentage of bowhunters who draw 78# (or more than 65, I'd venture to guess), which skews your math back towards crossbow superiority.

Most bowhunters don't come close to IBO on their setup. I notice you don't either. You shoot 6.25 gr/lb, which is a lot more typical than 5 gr/lb in hunting setups. This further biases the data towards crossbow superiority.

Regardless. The point is that crossbows are not inferior to compounds, when typical setups are used for comparison.

Thanks for helping me prove my point. :-)

Stalker · « **Reply #146 on:** September 10, 2005, 12:06:47 PM »

so does that mean that you would accept x-bows in archery season with a weight limitation

..... that is the case in some of the states that allow x-bows..... I think the weight limitation is 200#.... but that could just as easily be 150# to 175#.... that would put them in the same general performance bracket as average hunting v-bows we are discussing....... (even 200# would be if you legislate the arrow weight)......

Stalker · « **Reply #147 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:59:36 PM »

Quote

Remember, what JH45gun claimed was that crossbows are ballistically inferior to compounds.

I would say they are ballistically the same.... the increased draw weight of a x-bow makes up for the shorter draw length...... jh45gun is correct that a shorter shaft is less efficient than a longer shaft (ballistic co-efficient and cross sectional density)... but as Mac11700 said.... at 50 yds and closer the point is moot.....

Quote

Most bowhunters don't come close to IBO on their setup.

hey.... don't sell me short yet...... 286 ft/sec @ 56lbs (350 grain arrow).....
that leaves me 14 lbs to get to IBO so..... 14 x 2 = 28 + 286 = 314 ft/sec
....... that puts me pretty close ......

so... in the old english vernacular.... "do we have an accord

".... x-bows should be allowed in archery season and limit the draw weight to 200#.... :-)

jsteele · « **Reply #148 on:** September 10, 2005, 02:35:25 PM »

[quote="Stalkerso... in the old english vernacular.... "do we have an accord

".... x-bows should be allowed in archery season and limit the draw weight to 200#.... :-)[/quote]

Not even close to an accord.

All we're discussing currently is whether crossbows are inferior to compounds.

Now that we have determined they are not, and in fact are superior, we can move on to the other issues....

Stalker · « **Reply #149 on:** September 10, 2005, 03:32:31 PM »

I'm not sure how we got back to x-bows being superior but this debate is going nowhere.... so to each his own..... I still think they are the same.... easier to use for the average person but no more or no less superior to v-bows....

I think I'll leave this discussion alone for a while.... one thing that I didn't answer was that there was a question back a few pages about deer that could have been shot with a crossbow but were not taken with a v-bow.... just to be clear I've had deer that I could of taken with a v-bow that couldn't be taken with a x-bow.... I had a bad shoulder and didn't want to give up hunting so I used a x-bow out of a treestand..... vertical trees and horizontal limbs don't mix..... if the deer comes out in front of you... no problem.... but as we all know things don't work out like that most of the time.... I had three different bucks come from behind or beside the tree I was in that week and I couldn't get enough clearance for the limbs to take a shot but I would have had enough with a v-bow..... just pointing out that there are drawbacks and limitations to both.... and that it's not a slam dunk like some people think.......