Author Topic: Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow  (Read 8290 times)

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Offline jh45gun

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Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2005, 06:10:30 PM »
Quote from: dukkillr
Well I'm sold now.  If only I'd known of that book sooner all of this discussion and logic could have been avoided.


Junior when you get the grey in your beard that I have and have shot a bow for over 40 years come and talk to me until then respect your elders! Wether you agree with them or not!  :roll:
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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2005, 06:45:36 PM »
It was the "elders" who put Galileo in jail.  Sometimes they are wrong.  Sometimes those same "elders" believe that their age makes them right.  Sometimes they'd rather be wrong than admit someone else is right.

I do respect those older than myself, including you, to a point.  I don't believe that makes you right.  Your comment that I was responding to had biting sarcasm in it.  I simply followed suit.

Offline jhm

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« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2005, 04:43:51 AM »
Lets see I believe we can all agree a muzzle loader is a RIFLE, then why is there a seperate season for them in most states different from the rifle season? :?   Just some salt for the debate :-D    JIM

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2005, 08:43:59 AM »
Quote from: jhm
Lets see I believe we can all agree a muzzle loader is a RIFLE, then why is there a seperate season for them in most states different from the rifle season? :?   Just some salt for the debate :-D    JIM

Yea and there are just as many that hunt with one during the regular season as a gun of choice! My self included. I have not shot a deer with a muzzle loader yet so I have carried it during several WI T zone seasons. Might again this year too with the 54 cal underhammer I built.
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Offline jh45gun

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Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2005, 08:52:00 AM »
Sarcastic me?

I was pointing out however that since a lot of archery books have xbows in them they are considered a part of archery no matter what you and jsteele think.  I have shot mine enough hunting to realize that it acts like a bow not a gun when it comes to shooting one in a hunting situation.
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Offline jhm

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« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2005, 08:54:10 AM »
Cant you hunt with a bow during the rifle season also?  Or would that be considered out of step?   JIM

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2005, 09:04:35 AM »
No us elders are not always right no one is, but I bet when you were 15 you thought your dad was full of it too then when you grew older you found out the old man was right at least a lot of the time.  I still have 25 years of living and expirience on you that has shown me a lot. Do you think I am responding to these post to wear my fingers out and get a bunch of crap for it. Some folks here do that just to get a rise out of folks or see how far they can push them. I am not doing that I believe in what I have been saying here and I have shot a bow and xbow enough that I know  of what I am saying. You do not believe me fine your privlige I do not always believe every one either but I am posting these post as I see them and I feel I have the expirience to back up what I have been saying.
One thing that you will realize when you get older and I do not know how old Jsteele is but not every thing how it looks on paper turns out that way in the real world. That has been proven time and time again even though the brainiacs consider it gospel because it looked good on paper.


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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2005, 09:15:56 AM »
Quote from: jhm
Cant you hunt with a bow during the rifle season also?  Or would that be considered out of step?   JIM



IN WI you can hunt with a bow during the early and late  T zone anterless hunts  and the Muzzle loading hunts in all units . The regular rifle season is closed to archery.

I thought this looked odd in the regulations as I know I bow hunted a few years ago in Metro area 1 as there were more deer there than where I normally rifle hunt due to some over harvesting. ( DNR thought there were more deer than there were) anyway Eyesore just posted this so yea in some areas you can archery hunt during rifle seasons in WI I do not know about other states.

The 2005 Wisconsin Deer Hunting Regulations pamphlet contained some incorrect information pertaining to the archery deer hunting season in Metro deer management units and the Chronic Wasting Disease deer management units.

Metro Units
The archery season in Metro Deer Management Units 1M, 59M, 60M, 64M, and 77M is incorrectly listed. In units 59M, 60M, 64M and 77M the correct either sex season dates for these units are: Sept. 17 through Oct. 26, Oct. 31 through Nov. 17, Nov. 19 through Dec. 7, and Dec. 12 through Jan. 31, 2006. In these units, only antlerless deer may be harvested from Oct. 27 through Oct. 30 and Dec. 8 through 11. In unit 1M the correct either sex archery season dates are: Sept. 17 through Oct. 26, Oct. 31 through Nov. 17, and Nov. 19 through Jan. 31. In unit 1M, only antlerless deer may be harvested from Oct. 27 through Oct. 30.

CWD Units
The CWD table (pages 60-64 of the regulations pamphlet) indicates that there is a one day break in the archery deer season on the Friday before Thanksgiving, which is Nov. 18. However, there is no break in the archery deer season in the CWD Zones. The season is open for archery deer hunting on Friday Nov. 18 in both the CWD Herd Reduction and the Eradication Zones. The season is Earn-A-Buck in both CWD Zones on this date and hunting hours for Zone A are from 6:19 a.m. to 4:49 p.m. See page 69 of the 2005 Wisconsin Deer Hunting Regulations to calculate the exact hunting hours for the are you intend to hunt.

The archery deer season in the rest of the state (outside of the CWD zones) is closed on Friday, Nov. 18 . The non-CWD zone archery deer seasons are correct in the tables (pages. 26-50 of the pamphlet).
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Offline jh45gun

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Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2005, 09:43:29 AM »
YOUR GUIDE TO THE CROSSBOW

Class now in session for new weapon Education and buying process has begun as hunters prepare


BY LEE GRAVES
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER Aug 7, 2005


The woods aren't legal turf yet, but crossbow season already has started in stores and classrooms and on ranges.

Retailers in particular have seen interest spike since crossbows were approved for general use, including special archery seasons.

"We're selling quite a few already. It's very popular," said Glen Harper, archery manager at Green Top Sporting Goods in Hanover County.

Hunter education instructors also have had special sessions with various manufacturing representatives to learn and practice crossbow skills.

Capt. Bobby Mawyer, coordinator of hunting education programs for the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, said classes include crossbows in the spectrum of weapons available to hunters.

"It's up to the students to pursue the things that excite them the most," Mawyer said. "I would anticipate [crossbows] being very popular."

That popularity does not extend to some traditional bow hunters who oppose crossbow use in special archery seasons. In public meetings, through e-mails and letters and in comments to VDGIF officials, they said crossbows are different animals -- more powerful and less demanding of hunters' skills than vertical bows.

But the VDGIF board's decision in June establishing seasons and a special license shifts the focus from debate to practicalities. Crossbows are now in the quiver of every hunter's options, so being informed about choices, from picking the right arrow to selecting the right shot, becomes the responsibility of everyone who exercises the privilege.

A good starting point for curious consumers is the Virginia Outdoor Sportsman Show this coming weekend at The Showplace on Mechanicsville Turnpike.

Green Top plans special crossbow demonstrations on Saturday, and other sporting goods retailers are geared for hunters' interests.

Harper's experience at Green Top is that the price tag is driving many decisions.

"Most people that come here are really considering price range more than anything else," Harper said. "I sell more bows in the $500 to $600 range than anything else."

Similarly priced bows can vary significantly, however, in design, safety mechanisms, trigger systems and other features.

One of the biggest factors to keep in mind is that draw weights of crossbows are about double the poundage of vertical bows, so don't be surprised when a salesman or catalog talks about a 150-pound draw weight. Crossbow strings travel less than half the distance of vertical bow strings.

"You need that poundage to have performance equal to a compound bow," said Johnny Grace, national sales manager with Parker Compound Bows in Mint Springs.

According to "Today's Crossbow," a booklet published by the National Bowhunter Education Foundation, "Ballistic tests show that there is very little, if any, difference in the impact of broadhead-tipped arrows shot from a crossbow and a compound bow."

Members of the American Crossbow Federation helped write that book, a source of pride for Dan Hendricks, chief executive officer.

"We want to train people to be good crossbow hunters, ethical crossbow hunters," he said.

That includes dispelling misconceptions about crossbows' range and power. For whitetail, a shot of about 40 yards is max. An arrow has to have the velocity to deliver a deadly wound, and that can mean piercing bone, Hendricks said.

Even in competitions on ranges, crossbow archers get a zero score if they take a shot beyond 40 yards, he said.

Competitive archery is one direction Hendricks, Grace and others see the sport expanding. Other growth markets include products specifically geared to women and young people.

The biggest need, however, is spreading accurate information.

"Education, education, education is the most important thing we can do now," Hendricks said.
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Offline Leverdude

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Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2005, 01:03:53 PM »
In CT we can bowhunt right thru the rifle season. Sept 15 till Jan 31.

I'm still undecided on the xbow thing but its not because I think its a better tool, Its because so many others do that I stop short of saying its fine.
Its only easier in that you dont need to draw in the presence of the animal.
An important difference sure but it doesn't make it not archery.
Personally I'd rather see it accepted than see the season cut up.
So I'm guilty of the "ME" thing too. I like having 4 1/2 mos to bowhunt & would rather share it than give it away.

Jim,
What Xbow do you have? Mines an old Barnett Wildcat I think its called. 150 lbs & about 240 fps. I cant hunt with it but its sure fun to shoot.
I put a little lazer sight on it & once sighted in, out to 20 yards I put the dot on what I want to hit & its got a hole in it.  :grin:  25 its down a few inches & 30 around a foot. If they were to open it here I'd sure use it. It wouldn't extend my range but it would add an exciting difference.  :D
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2005, 03:31:16 PM »
Too bad you cannot hunt with it you will have to get pushing on a rule change.  :grin: Got two a Barnett Ranger 150# about 225 fps and a Chinese copy of a wildcat that is supposed to be 150 and 240 fps.  I have not shot the chinese copy yet just put a new string on it.  Yea these are not the speed demons that the newer bows are but they are accurate and will kill a deer with in the range they were designed for. The interesting thing is most all the xbow companies including Barnett do not reccomend shooting over 40 yards which is good advice.  I see you noticed too  they drop quite a bit between 20 and 30 yards and at 40 it would be about 28 inches or so.  You know I still say they drop more than a bow but for the sake of arguement say they would be the same ( Which they are not) That still blows the arguement out of the water of folks that think they shoot farther than a bow does it is just not so. A bow shoots farther and you can shoot a arrow faster for a second shot so I really cannot see why the bow hunters feel so threatened. In fact you could shoot a 3 or 4  arrows by the time you got  the xbow ready for a second shot.  
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2005, 03:33:36 PM »
I think that most xbow shooters would rather share the season than see it cut up that would just make a tough for every one. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2005, 04:05:48 PM »
It'll happen sooner or later. One problem here is alot of guys poach with them, that dont help much.  :?  Tho I frown on punishing everybody because of a few idiots. All breaks down to politics & public opinion.

I'm not sure what my crossbow shoots speed wise just what it said on the box. If thats right then it shoots 5 fps faster than my compound.
I shoot 2219's from my bow & they weigh over 550 grains. Again the xbow I dont know the arrow weight but since I just cut down my 2219's for it I'd say they are lighter.
Zero'd at 20 the compound only loses 8" at 30 yards with my set up.
Like I said the xbows a foot or so low. I dont believe it defies physics, I just dont think its as cut & dry as weight & velocity. I think the arrow length matters. But I dont know why. Or care either really. Either one is effective to at least 30 yards & thats more than ten yards further than 90% of my bow kills.

For me, letting the animals get that close is the essence of bowhunting. Getting to watch how deer act, sometimes for hours just out of range & learn how they behave is what I'm trying to do. Rifle hunting I try & do the same thing but still often blast one as soon as I see it because I can.

I know guys that kill deer 40 & 50 yards away with a compound all the time. Crossbows only real advantage is not drawing like I said before & IMO thats over ridden by the slowness of a second shot as you mentioned.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2005, 04:14:52 PM »
Thanks for posting your results and at 40 yards the difference would even be greater. That 40 yard figure is for more arguement than any thing else as you said most shots are under 30. I use the 40 yard figure as you do get a lot more drop and 40 yards is what the xbow folks use a max range even though some may try to shoot farther but then they do with a bow too so I guess that irrevelent.  I think most folks who poach use a gun for quick on the spot in the head ect kills.  I know some may use a bow or xbow for the noise factor but I really do not think many poachers want to chase a blood trail looking for a deer. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2005, 12:02:15 PM »
Its the sound thing Jim. Theres too many deer here & if you tried, by fall you can have the deer close enuff to whack them with a hammer. I cant say for a fact thats what theyre doing but you cant hunt with them here & they sell a bunch of them. I'v heard things I believe but never saw anywrong doings myself tho.  Round here gunshots bring the law pretty quick tho so they certainly wouldnt be a good first choice.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2005, 02:31:30 PM »
If you got that many deer you would think folks would not have to poach I know in WI most that poach these days do it for the rack ect it sure cannot be  for the meat as we can get as many tags as we want these days. Even the wardens say that they wonder why anyone would poach with all the tags you can get unless it is for the horns. I guess some folks though just to it to see if they can do it I guess.  Jim
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2005, 05:03:35 PM »
Some folks are just too lazy to sit thru the course & get a license.   :shock:
Once you buy your license,$30 I think, you get 2 either sex & 2 antlerless tags. In my county theres unlimited replacement antlerless tags & this year every third replacement tag they're giving you another either sex tag.

Theres alot of suburban type deer here & if its your thing you can shoot a bunch of tame deer as acces is pretty easy to get now.

I like hunting like a hunter better & mostly stay in woods but do have a blind I put in a flower bed on one property. Its amazing how they change once theyre in a yard where people belong. I hunt a wooded lot about 1/2 mile away & I know theyre the same deer but in the woods they act normal.
Their cautious & wary, they pay attention to scent & if they think somethings up its over.
 These same deer last Jan in the ladies yard, were hanging out eating her bushes one morning last year when I got there. It was maybe an hour before daylight but there was snow on the ground so I could see them & more important they could see me. They were maybe 40 yards away at the very edge of her yard looking right at me.
Now, earlier in the year the same thing happened more than once & I left rather than educate them about my blind. But seeing as it was Jan & the season almost over I threw caution to the wind & climbed in right in front of them. There were 6 in all, 2 adult does I'd say 3 year olds & 4 not quite yearlings. At daybreak they were all 6 spread out 15 yards in front of me.
I watched them for 20 minutes or so when I heard a ruckus behind me off to the right. The woman seen the deer & not knowing I was there started yelling at them & banging on a bucket trying to get them away.  :)  :-D  It was all I could do to keep from busting a gut watching them ignore her, chewing away all the while.  :)
After she gave up I decided to take one. So I picked out a doe & when she turned broadside let one fly. I seen a clump of fur come off her as they all ran off. So now I light a cigarette to wait for her to die & as I'm sitting there I see something coming from where they ran. They came back, well 5 anyway  :P  I put out my butt & waited & they fed right back in front of me again.   :shock:  I belong to a local Italian club & they were having a game dinner in a week & I had promised them a deer so, with very little trepidation I decided I'd try for a double & whacked the biggest young one. I dont know why but I didn't want to shoot the other doe.

Anyway, my point was theres no reason at all to poach here but sheer laziness or just for the thrill.
I'm fairly certain that if I tried I coulda took 20 last year. Its not the same as outwitting them where they live tho so I only got 7.  :-)
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2005, 05:27:23 PM »
Deer can be one of the smartest critters or one of the dumbest. Just depends on where they are at and what their mood is I guess. I shot one once that its head was behind some brush and the rest of it was wide open. It thought it was hidden since its head was covered.  :)
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Offline jsteele

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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2005, 12:53:38 PM »
Quote from: jh45gun
I think that most xbow shooters would rather share the season than see it cut up that would just make a tough for every one. Jim


Yea - its all about what the xbow shooters want now, right?

Whatever.

I've had enough.  Every crossbow advocate I've ever talked to online is a flaming activist.  They are obnoxious and unreasonable, and never give an inch.

Realize this...I think that physically challenged individuals who hunt with a crossbow are an inspiration and role models as bowhunters who are truly passionate about bowhunting and will do anything to keep bowhunting.

But, when crossbows are legalized for everyone, that will change.  I will view anyone who carries a crossbow as a short cutting shirker, an opportunist who took the easy way out.

You have choosen to throw your lot in with the crossbow hunters, and abandon the bowhunters.  So be it.

If and when crossbows are legalized in my state, I will never consider someone who shoots a crossthing a bowhunter.

Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2005, 01:22:29 PM »
wow. i dont see where all the passion and bitterness comes from here. we all want to hunt, so lets do that.

i am not competing with anyone else, i hunt the way i want to, competingwith myself to feel good. if you dont want to call me a bowhunter if i use a crossbow, a legal weapon with the same range as your bow, then dont call me one.

i dont think any of us are worried about what label you might give us.

and its hard to consider someone with a crossBOW a GUN hunter so what are you going to call us?

you suppose there is someone out there who thinks YOU are cheating or unorthodox because you use a compound, an arrow rest, or scent cover?

since when do individuals get to assign worth to us and tell us whats right and wrong and who is and who is not a "Real" hunter? talking about someone who is a flaming activist. lol

cmon. the rest of us are over here, away from the playground.

-Matt
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2005, 01:59:23 PM »
I reckon theres oposition to any change like this. Was before my hunting but I hear alot of guys wigged out over compounds once. They have a muzzleloader season here & there was n uproar over scopes awhile back & then the inlines shooting rifle bullets & so on & so on.
If they change it it'll be big news for a year & then be forgotten.
I dont know that I'd care what someone thought of me using a cross bow as long as its a legal weapon myself.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2005, 02:03:23 PM »
Good Post Matt and the playground comment fits.

 All xbow users want to do it to hunt and be accepted nothing wrong with that yet when they defend their sport they are labeled a activist mostly by some one who is a activist for the other side. I am handicapped so I can use a xbow but I also feel that no bow hunter or bowhunter group should be able to use their influence to limit the hunting styles of others. Expecially by giving out false information and scare tactics. I find it interesting Jsteel, that the only threads you have responded to are the xbow issue here  and you just joined so who sent you to us as a activist???? You have not responded to any other post yet there are lots of different areas to check out. You have not even checked out the Archery sites yet your an archer???? I think something is pretty fishy here.  :x  38 post and they are all on the crossbow issue against them even though you say you are for handicapped folks using them. I think that is a cover up for your real adjenda to spread falsehoods about the xbow here for what ever reason that is on your adjenda.
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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2005, 03:05:45 PM »
Quote
All xbow users want to do it to hunt and be accepted


You keep saying that, and it keeps not being true.  What you want is to be accepted during bow season.  That's a big distinction.  

Rules are set by the collective morals of those with the power to vote or decide on them.  For instance it was determined years ago that in some places you couldn't hunt the day you fly.  Some states have minimum caliber limitations.  Some places have banned motion wing decoys for waterfowl hunting (I think this is a good comparison).  There are literally thousands or regulations.  That xbows don't belong in bow season is just one of them.  The collective opinion of those with the power to decide (be it voters in Wisconsin or a committee here in KS) doesn't buy what you're selling.  Maybe someday they will.  There are always those who seek change, and there are always those who feel the line has to be drawn.

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2005, 04:32:06 PM »
The WI DNR will pass a Crossbow hunt for every one during bow season it is just a matter of time and takeing some of the claws out of the WI bow hunters ass. If not for then the WI DNR would have already passed it. Unfortunately due to the ignorance of some or not being properly informed or afraid they are going to have competition in their deer woods it was voted down but like the compound hunters from some years ago who kept fighting for change so will the xbow hunters until it is accepted. The WI DNR will be all for it as a way to get maybe more folks out hunting to harvest the herd. The WI bow hunters ass. went all out this spring to not get it passed but it will. Eventually the DNR see what is happening and pass some regs on the subject anyway.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2005, 04:40:01 PM »
and there are always those who feel the line has to be drawn.


And for the most part after a while folks see through for what that is like the compound over the traditional bow issue and the inline against the sidelock or flinter,  Or handgun use for hunting ect. Game management usually will pass laws that allow more folks to use the resource instead of trying to limit it like some hunters try to do. Expeccially if they see that some have a interest in it.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2005, 04:51:22 PM »
be it voters in Wisconsin It has never been brought up to the voters in WI ( in a general election) and probably never will as that normally is what the DNR spring hearings are for and only a small segment of the population goes to them even amoungst the hunters and fisherman.  I think future Spring Conservation hearings will have a different impact as more xbow users go to them after seeing what happened this spring. This spring two groups showed up in force besides the normal folks that go to the meetings and that were the animal rights groups in a snit about the proposed feral cat issue and members of the WI bow hunters ass who were there in full force to defeat the xbow vote. They did this all over the state so the vote was a stacked deck but I think in the future as more xbow hunters go to the meetings this will change when the DNR sees the interest in it. The allowing of older hunters over 65 will have a huge impact on that as their numbers will be a lot more than the handicapped users.
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Offline jsteele

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Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2005, 10:28:56 AM »
Quote from: mjbgalt
wow. i dont see where all the passion and bitterness comes from here.


I don't know about bitterness (frustration perhaps), but the passion comes from being a bowhunter...


and its hard to consider someone with a crossBOW a GUN hunter so what are you going to call us?

I'm going to call you what you are ... a hunter, a crossbow hunter, both of which are fine by me .... but it stops there.  You aren't a bowhunter.

you suppose there is someone out there who thinks YOU are cheating or unorthodox because you use a compound, an arrow rest, or scent cover?
-Matt


They may say I cheat, but they will call me a bowhunter if I am using a bow.  

See, that's the thing.  If that is NOT important to you, well, what are you doing trying to get into BOW season.

Its crossbow hunting.  Its not bad or evil or wrong.  But its not bowhunting.

(PS - i shoot a recurve, so you can save all those compound sermons)

Offline jsteele

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Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2005, 10:36:32 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
Unfortunately due to the ignorance of some or not being properly informed or afraid they are going to have competition in their deer woods it was voted down.


Bash those bowhunters, boy....

That's it, its ignorance plain and simple....

But it could be that they genuinely feel a crossbow isn't a bow doesn't belong in bow season....  :idea2:  :idea2:

No, they don't agree with you, so it must be ignorance. :roll:

Offline dukkillr

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Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2005, 10:48:45 AM »
It seems difficult for the pro-xbow crowd to have this discussion without throwing insults to entire groups of people.  It really does seem to me that they believe if they keep using the "you're selfish and don't want to share your deer" line and the "uninformed" description it'll help their argument.  I'll make two offers if we can end these insults.  First, send me a PM and I'll set up a time for you to visit where I bowhunt.  Afterwards you will realize other hunters have little or no impact on me.  Second, we'll go visit the fellow KS bowhunter (now disabled) who introduced me to xbows.  While we're on the trip I guess we could go by a proshop and test the arrow drop to see if it does indeed defy the law of gravity.

Please don't use other people's bad behavior to justify your own.  I don't care if bowhunters have called you names.  As adults I think we've all learned that you shouldn't lower yourself to someone else's level.

Offline jh45gun

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Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2005, 11:28:01 AM »
Dukkillr your a riot I am sure I am going to drive to KS to make a point. Yea right boy is that a safe bet.  :)  Every thing I have said is true as I see it and I saw and heard a lot at the spring hearings in WI you were not there so you did not hear and see what I did but if you could have been you would understand where I am coming from.
I hve based most of my arguements on that Hearing and used some of the internet info for back up but the spring hearing issue is what I am basing most of my arguements on.

Jsteele you are dodgeing the issue Where did you come from and why if your such a bow hunter you have never checked the archery sites out here and have only posted on the crossbow issue here? Sounds like a activeist to me who sent you? So you shoot a recurve wonderfull I bet you rail against the compound shooters too eh as that is not a real bow according to you traditionalist if that is what you are. Could be some one just stirring the pot considering you have only posted on this subject so what is your answer to that. Anyone who whould be a traditional bow hunter I would think would post at the traditioal bow sight here which you have not done. Like I said something fishy about you.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.