Arrow Physics - crossbow vs bow

[jsteele]

jh -

Actually, it was your "crossbow is here to stay" thread that drew me in to the forum, bashing bowhunters and beating on dukkillr.

I've been busy responding to your lies, untruths, half truths, and misrepresentations ever since.

I hope to get to some other other forums, but you have been keeping me busy here with your refusal to accept physical law.

I'm fine with compounds in general, although I hope there will be some technology limits, because they are the modern evolution of a bow.  Your crossbow is ... the modern evolution of a crossbow.

I started hunting late in life, when I was 20 or so, all on my own.  No father or grandfather to guide me, I learned about hunting in field and stream and the school of hard knocks.  When I was 25 or so, I thought I'd try bowhunting.  Went to Kmart to buy a bow and I bought a compound.  They didn't have anything else, and I didn't know any better.  A compound was a bow.

I learned to shoot, learned about form and technique, tuning a bow, and broadhead flight.  I loved to shoot my bow.  In the woods, I learned, usually the hard way, about bowhunting.  Where to stand, when to draw, when to shoot, nervous deer, jumping strings, camoflauge, playing the wind, and much, much more.  It was tough, real tough, but I fell in love with bowhunting.  I still gun hunted when the season turned, mind you, but I lived for bowhunting.

3 years later, when I was 28, I killed my first buck with a bow.

Its been many years and many deer since.  I still love bowhunting and have learned to love the simplicity and challenge of a recurve.

But I know, contrary to what you have stated, that killing a deer with a compound is not like falling off a log.  I understand that the largest part of bowhunting is having to maneuver for a shot when that buck is in close, and execute without thinking, with skills honed through 100's of arrows of practice, when it is all on the line and he is 15 yds away.  Hunting skills are important, or you wouldn't be in position for the shot.  Bow skills are important, or you wouldn't make the shot.

Both are equally important - when you are BOWhunting.

[jh45gun]

How easy is killing a deer with a bow well pretty easy if you practice and know where your arrow is going and keep it in the distance you know how to shoot at. Last year was the first year I did not kill a deer with a bow in about 15 years. Does that bother me hell no as for that 15 years I shot a average of 2 a season with a high one year of 5 so do not tell me bow hunting is so tough it is as tough as you want to make it. Some were bucks and some were does and do not tell me that does are easy as they can be smarter than bucks are. But They both can be danged stupid at times too. The only reason I did not kill one last year was because I did not hunt where I normally hunt do to the price of gas. This year may be tough too. I shot a 5 point and a doe last year with a pistol though so I still had Venison. You tell me about practicing I used to shoot striped gophers in a field with a bow from 15 to 30 some yards with a recurve and no sight shooting instictively so I know all about recurve hunting my first buck  ( A Fork) with a bow was with a Ben Person Recurve 42#.  I know  lots of guys that are friends of mine that kill several deer a year with a bow so I know it can be done easy if the situation is right. Yea we still get a charge out of shooting one with bow too or a xbow as the challenges are the same no matter what you say about the xbow. Any deer shot with a bow or xbow is a trophy too in my book but there is no magic to it. Just get close and know how to shoot and if you do that you have venison in the freezer.  What I can say with a bow or xbow no shot is a given. A branch you did not see or some grass or a small shrub or tree all can make your arrow deflect and miss even though the shot may have looked good. Thats what still keeps it exciting. I shoot from the ground I do not care for hunting out of trees and I still shoot all the deer I want normally. You may think just because I stick up for xbows I do not know what I am talking about but I do you never stated your age but if you are 40 or under I shot my first deer that forkhorn with a bow when you were in diapers or a gleam in your daddys eye so do not insinuate I know nothing about bow hunting or recurves or compounds I have used them all.  Now I use a xbow which I can legally.

[Leverdude]

Somebody must have an emoticon with a guy beating a dead horse.  

[jh45gun]

[jh45gun]

Speaking of Horses.  

The Lone Ranger and Tonto walked into a bar and sat  down to drink a beer.
 
 After a few minutes, a big tall cowboy walked in and said "Who owns the big white horse outside?"
 
 The Lone Ranger stood up, hitched his gun belt, and said, "I do, why?"
 
 The cowboy looked at the Lone Ranger and said, "I  just thought you'd like to know that your horse is  about dead out there!"
 
 The Lone Ranger and Tonto rushed outside, and sure enough, Silver was ready to die from heat exhaustion. The Lone Ranger got  water for the horse, and soon Silver was starting to feel a little better.
 
The Lone Ranger turned to Tonto and said, "Tonto, I want you to run around Silver,and see if you can create enough of a breeze to make him start to feel better."
 
 Tonto said, "Sure, Kemosabe", and took off running circles around Silver.
 
 Not able to do anything else but wait, the Lone Ranger returned to the bar to finish his drink. A few minutes later,  another cowboy struts into the  bar and asks, "Who owns that big white horse outside?" The Lone Ranger stands again, and claims,  "I do, what's wrong with him this time?"
 
 The cowboy looks him in the eye and says . . .
 
 
 "Nothin', but you left your Injun running".

[jh45gun]

Unfortunately due to the ignorance of some or not being properly informed or afraid they are going to have competition in their deer woods it was voted down.

Bash those bowhunters, boy....

That's it, its ignorance plain and simple....

But it could be that they genuinely feel a crossbow isn't a bow doesn't belong in bow season....  :idea2:  :idea2:

No, they don't agree with you, so it must be ignorance. :roll:

[jsteele]

Somebody must have an emoticon with a guy beating a dead horse.  

Don't like it?  Don't read it.  :roll:

[jsteele]

JH -

I didn't mean to insinuate that you know bothing about bows...I think you know plenty about bows.  That's why, when you say stuff like the following, I believe you are misrepresenting the truth to further your own crossbow agenda (which I personally find just as distasteful as out and out lies):

How easy is killing a deer with a bow well pretty easy if you practice and know where your arrow is going and keep it in the distance you know how to shoot at.

 Just get close and know how to shoot and if you do that you have venison in the freezer

"Knowing where your arrow is going" and "Knowing how to shoot" is exactly what makes bowhunting difficult, and is the entire crux of the crossbow vs bow debate.  But, since you know bows, you know that.

Perhaps you would like to tell the ~90% who take to the field each year unsuccesfully with a bow how "easy" it is.

You are proving to be an artful dodger of the whole truth.

[jh45gun]

Why are they unsuccessful? 90% eh I think that is pretty inflated.  If so why do they pass up deer for bucks only? Or Huge racks if so then thats their problem not mine. I can only tell you I and my friends usually get a deer some times two or more a season and have for the past 15 years or so ever since WI deer herd exploded with the nice winters ect and they keep giving out liberal tags. So ya from our stand point it is easy but then we are hunting to get venison not the biggest rack in the woods. SO I suppose that makes a major difference.  In fact in some of the areas and hunts  we have you can only shoot does. I can shoot 4 does this year or 2 bucks and two does depending on how I use my licenses so ya it is fairly easy here to kill a deer with a bow or xbow if you put the time in.  We also put a lot of time in for those deer and spent maybe more time hunting than your 90 % IF you ever spend any time hunting with a xbow you would realize the arrow acts the same as far as short distance and easy to miss if you misjudge the range or deflect the arrow because of brush or grass, small trees ect. This is more prevelent when hunting from the ground and when you take your shots as you get them with out cut lanes for shooting ect so misses are possible but even so I still get several deer a year and have for a while now except for last year.  I may not get any this year too as I know with the price of gas I will hardly be able to drive to where I normally hunt. I could hunt in the city urban hunts but they have been doing some controlled hunts that have done a good job on killing the deer in the woodlots of the city so I doubt if  I will bother hunting the two places in town I normally hunted.  So this year is a tossup, but I know if I could put the time in I normally do I would kill a deer with a arrow. Still might as luck still has a hand in these things. By me saying it has been easy to kill a deer by no means, that I take it lightly like  I said every deer is a trophy to me even the does I shoot. Like I said if you can get close and put the arrow where you want it that should equal venison it has for me so I do not know what else to tell you. Maybe I should not call success easy but it has seemed that way to me. Yea there is work in it and time spent in the field I do not mean it is like those hunts you see on TV where the guy gets up in a tree and 5 min later he has a deer or bear or elk or what ever he is hunting. No I spend more time than that but I really have been successfull or lucky or it is easy what ever you want to call it. I put time in every year to practice too so I do know where my arrows are going at least if I have a clear shot. I know lots of guys that shoot a half a dozen arrows at a target if that even to see if their pins are on and figure good enough and then wonder why they miss. Maybe that is part of your 90%  :roll: Jim

[Leverdude]

Somebody must have an emoticon with a guy beating a dead horse.  

Don't like it?  Don't read it.  :roll:

Never said I didn't like it. I find it really amusing. Notice the little laughing green smiley face.
 Please excuse me for trying to bring a little levity to your rant. :grin:

[Mike357mag]

Jsteele  Wrote this :

"Knowing where your arrow is going" and "Knowing how to shoot" is exactly what makes bowhunting difficult, and is the entire crux of the crossbow vs bow debate. But, since you know bows, you know that

Wow you mean with a crossbow you don't have to know how to shoot or know where your arrow is going.  Man I got to get a better crossbow where can I get the one you are talking about it must have heat seeking arrows or something.  Be careful they don't make a Bull@#$% seeker or somebody might get hit by accident.

Mike H

[jsteele]

Knowing how to shoot a bow, and knowing how to shoot a crossbow are two different things.

 Just point and shoot, Mike, point and shoot.

You know, like we do with a gun, that other tool we use that requires zero archery skills to operate.

Point....then shoot.

[Mike357mag]

If all you do is shoot and point you need a lot of help. You can "point and shoot" just "point and shoot"  all you want.  You obviously "must be upset",  "must be upset",  "must be upset".  Face it if there is a crossbow season during "your archery" "your archery" Jsteele then you do not have to use one, but why should your opinion be forced onto others?

Mike H

[jh45gun]

Face it Mike he is a  crossbow troll. Any one who claims you can just point and shoot a xbow for hunting has never shot one or saw how the arrow performs. Its a whole lot of different shooting a xbow hunting then it is at a target  with no obstructions just as the same applies for a bow.

Crossbow troll.

[jsteele]

 Face it if there is a crossbow season during "your archery" "your archery" Jsteele then you do not have to use one, but why should your opinion be forced onto others?

Mike H

Why should your opinion be forced on me?  Why should crossbows be forced into bow season?

I'm not suggesting banning crossbows where they are already legal ... I'm opposing adding them where they are not!

In other words, I/m opposed to FORCING others to accept what is currently an ILLEGAL weapon.

Why do you want to force me to allow an illegal weapon into bow season?

[Mike357mag]

Simple my choice/opinion still allows you do want you want.  It does not force you to not use something. A CROSSBOW IS NOT AN ILLEGAL WEAPON.  YOU STILL WILL NOT ANSWER WHY YOU CARE WHAT A FELLOW HUNTER IS USING AS LONG AS IT IS LEGAL.  WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER THESE SIMPLE QUESTIONS:  

IF CROSSBOWS ARE LEGAL WHY SHOULD YOU CARE WHAT ANOTHER FELLOW HUNTER IS USING AS LONG AS YOU CAN USE WHAT YOU WANT TO USE?  WHY DOES IT MATTER WHAT ANOTHER FELLOW HUNTER USES TO KILL A DEER AS LONG AS IT IS LEGAL? DO NOT EVEN START THAT challenge BS SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT A CHALLENGE(thats why they use modern bow equipment) THEY SIMPLY WANT variety OR VENISON IN THE FREEZER.  IF THEY WANTED A CHALLENGE IT WOULD BE TO USE A TRADITIONAL BOW NOT A COMPOUND BOW.  

I got a suggestion lets only use traditional bows during archery season.  Then we can use compounds and crossbows during gun season.  Then in 5 years there will be no large bow hunters association.  Then we can make the traditional bow hunters mad by invading their bow season with crossbows, UH WAIT A MINUTE ALL THE COMPOUND BOW HUNTERS ALL READY DID THAT TO THEM FIRST.

TROLL ALL YOU WANT, another one bites the dust and the ignore list just grew.

Mike H

[jsteele]

that's mature.

Crossbows are NOT legal weapons in my state.

[jh45gun]

that's mature.

Crossbows are NOT legal weapons in my state.

GIVE IT TIME THEY WILL BE WETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. They are quickly gaining popularity.

[dukkillr]

Welcome to the "Ignore List".  I found myself there after making good points that Mike couldn't handle.  I'm so glad I don't feel the need to mute those I disagree with.

[jh45gun]

Well like a buddy once said you kick a donkey in the @$$ at least it says heehaw. I guess he figured that maybe you and JS do not even contribute that much to the conversation. The ignore list is to keep things orderly here and I do not use it but if some do I sure am not going to fault them for it as it is their  choice. Their goes that choice word again.

[dukkillr]

To each their own, certainly.  You can choose to believe the world is flat or that Elivs lives in my basement.  That doesn't make it right, actually it makes you ignorant.  Just because you have the right to choose something doesn't mean others can't judge you based on the decisions you make.

You have the right to choose and abortion.  Gays can choose to marry in some states.  Eric Roudolph choose to kill people.  

There's that word "choose" again.

I would suspect that rather than ignoring us because we don't add "anything", we got ignored because we added something he didn't like.

[jh45gun]

You got Elvis in your basement??? No wonder I have not seen any Elvis sightings reported in the papers lately.      

[jsteele]

that's mature.

Crossbows are NOT legal weapons in my state.

GIVE IT TIME THEY WILL BE WETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. They are quickly gaining popularity.

We'll see.

You (and others like you) have convinced me to get and stay involved in the legislative process.  I write to my state representatives 2-3 times a year about hunting issues.  I'll continue to make sure and let them know how I, and most hunters, feel about crossbows.

Thanks for the motivation. :toast:

[dukkillr]

I feel the same way jsteel.

[jh45gun]

Go ahead more power to you but most DNR will look at the xbow as a tool for harvesting exploading deer populations and those against them will probably not have that much effect as a lot of folks will care less one way or the other and then their will be folks who will push for the xbow so I feel it will happen sooner or later. Jim

[jh45gun]

Another hunters perspective I found.

Dave Hawk

You all know by now I am a croossbow hunter. 4 major surgerys on my shoulders and the left will need replacement in the future, sooner if I keep playing with you guys at the range. Plus I crushed 4,5 &6 dics in my lower back. at 24. Now Crossbows have made some major changes over the 23 years I have been hunting with them. They are seriously accurate and getting harder to pull back, as the manufactures are making them higher in poundage every year trying to out due the other guy, but it still can be done by hand if one is tought the correct way to do it.
.It still shoots and arrow that can hit a limb, deer can still jump the string at ranges closer than one would think and you still need to get in position for the shot.
.I had to learn to think and hunt like a bow hunter, just because the bow is sitting in my lap or hanging on a limb dosn't mean I can be ready for what ever deer comes in. It's true that if I see the deer 1st I can 99.9% of the time be ready for the deer. But the deer that comes in behind me or along side me and sometimes from the thickets right in front of me It can be tricky to manover the bow into position. I've learned the signs deer give to allow me to move and get in positions to make a clean kill. Holding the bow up for a period of time is not uncommon either. Waiting for the perfact shot. At times I have been busted by many doe's and bucks while holding.
.2nd shots can be made, but quess what, I have to recock my bow to do so. I have made many kills with deer standing insight with a 2nd shot either for a 2nd deer kill or a missed shot and reloaded to take a 2nd.
.The major difference I have found between Crossbow shooters and virticals shooters in stand placement, guys always ask me. "Are you putting me in one of your CB stands?" My stands are usualy in think cover and this is where the difference comes in, Sence I don't need to draw back I usualy will be tucked in between limbs or low over hanging branches.
.If I was shooting a "Bow Gun" that shot a "BULLET" I can asure you I would have a dozen or more major size bucks that would be in the record books. My arrows are just that an arrow and thus subject to the same surcomstances ever bow hunter faces in the field.

[jsteele]

That's boring - just another opinion.

We already blew up one myth about crossbows, that they are somehow ballistically inferior to a compound.  Let's tackle another, shall we?

I read this on Archery Talk today.  It involves the widespread myth that crossbows will increase the number of hunters ....

Twogun,

You are guilty of what we in the scientific world call "Cherry Picking", using only the data that supports your position or hypothesis.

Shame on you. Let's hope you did it out of ignorance of the larger statistical population, and were not purposefully trying to mislead anyone. Serious loss of credibility, in either case.

Thanks to Marvin and BigBird for shining the light of truth on the matter with a more complete set of data.

Let's look at it more closely, then compare to the original hypothesis:

1997 2003
NY 709054 641572
OH 528703 425992

First, let's get this straight. NO one is or should be celebrating a net loss of hunters. But facts are facts, and the fact is that the Crossbow Darling, OH, lost 19.4% of her hunters since 1997 while the Crossbow Antichrist, NY, lost only 9.5%

In case you suck at percentages, and believe that is a trick somehow .... OH, with its crossbows, lost 36000 more hunters than NY during this period even though NY had a lot more to lose.

Back to the Twogun (and crossbow proponents in general) hypothesis:

Crossbow legalization will boost hunter numbers. The data resoundingly rejects the hypothesis.

In fact, I could use this data to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that crossbow legalization decreases hunter numbers!

I won't though, that would be cheating. We'll leave that to the crossbow guys. This should end the bogus arguement taht xbows will add new blood.

[jh45gun]

I am not that stupid Jsteele is has been proven time and time again ANY set of numbers can be manipulated to show the veiw of the manipulator. Just as in Math you can make numbers do any thing you want. My Brother  had a good point if you say that crossbows are so efficient and better than a compound and should not be allowed during archery seasons  than you are hunting with a inefficient hunting system and it  should be outlawed.      

[dukkillr]

if you're not stupid you can see the logical extent of that line of thought, that being that we would outlaw anything that's not "the most efficient".  that's not a "good point" and i'd bet you know it.

crossbows are more efficient, that's not debatable.  Your best argument is that there are too many deer and bowhunters aren't killing enough.  That's true, fair, and supports your claim.  Claiming that xbows aren't more deadly than handbows is false, and unfair.

[jh45gun]

See I knew it if I twisted this like my brother said you guys would cry foul yet in earlier post you guys kept hinting that the xbow was so more efficent and when the tables are turned. Even if I go along with what you two have said that the arrows have the same balistics wether it comes from a xbow or bow, than it kills the same too so your statement:

 Claiming that xbows aren't more deadly than handbows is false, and unfair.

Has you running around in circles. Which way is it you cannot have it both ways?      :roll:
\
One question are you and Jsteele joined at the hip? Neither one of you has been here for several days then Jsteele posted I replyed and bang your here? Seems quite odd. I am here every day as I am a moderator but for you two to show up the same time all the time seems quite odd.