Indiana Bans Canned Hunts!

[dukkillr]

I disagree with your comparison but I like your point.  We've agreed you can't shoot animals out of moving vehicles haven't we?  What about after dark?  Why'd we make those decisions?  Because it isn't "sporting".  Neither is a canned hunt.  

Each and every question should be evaluated on it's own, rather than simply saying, "Oh well if you want to stop anything remotely considered hunting you're with the anti's!"

[big medicine]

I hear people saying..

"I am against bans of any kind"

Using this kind of logic society could not ban murder or any other kind of dangerous and undesireable activity.

The fact that certain hunting related things must be banned should not automatically be considered harmful.

    javascript:emoticon(':grin:')
Very Happy

It sure could be considered harmful. What if someone doesent approve or doesnt consider what you do "hunting" For example, someone could say that hunting out of tree stands should be banned. It is only for the lazy. It is not hunting to sit in a tree stand and ambush a deer as it walks by. There is no challange in that. Real hunters stock their prey and belly crawl over open ground and kill their deer with a spear. that is the mark of a real hunter, that is the only kind of hunting that should be allowed.

Where does it end? It has been the same debate over semi-autos, inline muzzleloaders ect, if someone doesnt like it or approve of it, then it must be banned. I dont call it hunting, I consider it shooting an animal, and it should be between the owner of the animal and who ever wants to pay for it.

And it is one thing to draft laws that affect wild game. Such as spotlighting, shooting from a vehicle, how they can be hunted ect. Laws are passed for the purpose of game management ect. But an animal that is farm raised for a purpose is quite another issue, rather it be a cow, pig, chicken, elk, or deer. What should it matter if it is taken to the locker and killed or someone is allowed to shoot it for them self?

[NONYA]

Here inMt one of the reasons it passed was to protect the wild game,from diseases caused by importing game animals and keeping them confined in large numbers,thats how CWD started.

[big medicine]

Here inMt one of the reasons it passed was to protect the wild game,from diseases caused by importing game animals and keeping them confined in large numbers,thats how CWD started.

Actually that is not true. Here is some good info on CWD

http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.overview

History of Chronic Wasting Disease
Chronic wasting disease (CWD) has been known as a clinical syndrome of mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) for more than 30 years; modeling suggests the disease may have been present in free-ranging populations of mule deer for more than 40 years.

The origin of CWD is not known and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose. Though of academic interest, determining the origin is probably not very important from a management perspective; nonetheless, speculation continues. Scrapie, a TSE of domestic sheep, has been recognized in the United States since 1947, and it is possible that CWD was derived from scrapie. Arguments can be made both for and against this hypothesis. It is possible, though never proven, that deer came into contact with scrapie agent either on shared pastures or in captivity somewhere along the front range of the Rocky Mountains, where high levels of sheep grazing occurred in the early 1900s. In addition, in vitro models suggest there is less of a species barrier to interspecies TSE transmission between deer, elk, and sheep than between these cervids and either cattle or humans. However, CWD has never been identified in other areas of North America or other parts of the world where cervids and domestic sheep with scrapie must have co-mingled. Strain typing experiments determined that CWD is not like known scrapie strains, though direct comparisons with North American scrapie strains has not been conducted. Experimental transmission of CWD to a domestic goat by intracerebral inoculation had a prolonged incubation; shorter incubation would be expected with scrapie strains in goats. Experimental scrapie in cattle and lesions of CWD in cattle are quite different.

It may be possible that CWD is a spontaneous TSE that arose in deer in the wild or in captivity and has biological features promoting transmission to other deer and elk. The majority of human CJD cases are thought to be spontaneous and associated with conformational change in a normal cellular protein (PrPC) to the abnormal disease associated protease resistant protein (PrPres) considered by many to be infectious agents of the TSEs. Occurrence of spontaneous CJD is approximately 1 per 1 million population per year. Spontaneous CWD may have happened in deer though it is difficult to see how this could be proven.

This is from the Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance.

[powderman]

Hanoi john kerry said that he loved to crawl through the forest on his belly cradling his trusty dbl bbl 12 ga while deer hunting. Now that's hunting.  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D . POWDERMAN.  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

[379 Peterbilt]

Not long ago, I was reading a book that had a chapter dedicated to the history of hunting hundreds of years ago. It mentioned something about how the hunters made fences from wood and tree limbs. These fences stretched out quite a long ways in narrow funnel areas of terrain. They would then chase or otherwise drive the game into these areas. Then of course they killed the game ( with spears I think ) for food.

This chapter also speaks of them hunting at night with a torch for light.

Source: The ecology and management of the north American moose.

My bet is that if they had access to a crossbow or a gun, they would have employed its use.

[Graybeard]

I'm still waiting for some of you folks who are so vocal and so violently opposed to "canned hunts" to define what constitutes "canned hunt". I'm waiting with baited breath. Personally I do not know what a "canned hunt" is. Sure wish someone would enlighten me.

[379 Peterbilt]

Good question Graybeard. In the meantime, I decided to google "canned hunt". Not surprising, the first hit that came up was from the HSUS website. Here is their definition of a canned hunt.

Canned hunting is the killing of an animal in an enclosure to obtain a trophy. The animals are sometimes tame exotic mammals; some, in fact, may have been hand-raised by the canned hunting operation or a breeder. These animals do not run from humans. Many groups that support hunting scorn canned hunting for its unsportsmanlike practice, because patrons are often guaranteed a kill.

From Maine to Arkansas, canned hunting operations are sprouting up all over. The HSUS estimates that there are more than 1,000 canned hunt operations in at least 28 states. They are most common in Texas, but they are found throughout the continental United States and Hawaii. Safari Club International has done its part to promote canned hunting by creating a hunting achievement award, the "Introduced Trophy Game Animals of North America," which may support the operation of canned hunts.

Most states allow canned hunting of native and exotic mammals. At this time, no federal law governs canned hunting. The Animal Welfare Act does not regulate game preserves, hunting preserves, or canned hunts. Although the Endangered Species Act protects species of animals listed as endangered or threatened, it does not prohibit private ownership of endangered animals and may even allow the hunting of captive-bred, endangered exotics.

 Canned Hunts
 
 


 
 HSUS
Canned hunting is the killing of an animal in an enclosure to obtain a trophy. The animals are sometimes tame exotic mammals; some, in fact, may have been hand-raised by the canned hunting operation or a breeder. These animals do not run from humans. Many groups that support hunting scorn canned hunting for its unsportsmanlike practice, because patrons are often guaranteed a kill.
Spreading Like a Disease

From Maine to Arkansas, canned hunting operations are sprouting up all over. The HSUS estimates that there are more than 1,000 canned hunt operations in at least 28 states. They are most common in Texas, but they are found throughout the continental United States and Hawaii. Safari Club International has done its part to promote canned hunting by creating a hunting achievement award, the "Introduced Trophy Game Animals of North America," which may support the operation of canned hunts.

Big Business

The sale of exotic mammals to canned hunts is big business for private breeders, animal dealers, and disreputable game parks and zoos. The overbreeding of captive exotic animals exacerbates the problem. Indiscriminate breeding produces surplus animals, which are then sold, traded, or otherwise disposed of to exhibitors, circuses, animal dealers, game ranches, or individuals. Hunt operators purchase animals directly from such sources, or at auctions.

The Victims

Clients pay large sums of money to participate in canned hunts, which take place in confined areas from which animals cannot escape. The victims may be exotic (non-indigenous); or native animals, including several varieties of goats and sheep; numerous species of Asian and African antelope; deer, cattle, swine, and zebra.

Tame Targets

The killing of a confined or restrained wild animal is slaughter for the sake of amusement. Unlike situations in which animals can use their natural and instinctual abilities to escape predation, a canned hunt affords animals no such opportunity. In fact, animals may be hand-reared, fed at regular times, and moved regularly among a system of corrals and paddocks. These practices lessen the natural fear and flight response elicited by human beings, and ensure the hunters an easy target. Animals may be set up for a kill as they gather at a regular feeding area or as they move toward a familiar vehicle or person. Once a pattern is established, even the most wary antelope can be manipulated effectively, guaranteeing a kill.

Legislation

Most states allow canned hunting of native and exotic mammals. At this time, no federal law governs canned hunting. The Animal Welfare Act does not regulate game preserves, hunting preserves, or canned hunts. Although the Endangered Species Act protects species of animals listed as endangered or threatened, it does not prohibit private ownership of endangered animals and may even allow the hunting of captive-bred, endangered exotics.

Summary of The HSUS's Objections to Canned Hunts

Canned hunts are cruel and brutal activities.

Canned hunts occur in a confined area from which the animal has absolutely no chance of escape.

Not only are animal used in canned hunts physically controlled by barriers or fences, they have also been psychologically conditioned to behave as a target by life in captivity.

Canned hunts provide private breeders, animal dealers, and disreputable zoos with a dumping ground for surplus animals and a financial justification for breeding. They exacerbate the problem of overbreeding of captive exotic animals.

Thats their take. Likely somewhat vauge so to include whoever they want, yet precisely specific on the percieved intentions of those involved. I also suspect that they purposely refrained from including acrage size and fence dimensions.

The picture they paint of such an operation is probably true somewhere. legal killing it is, "hunting" likely it is not. But sadly they cast any and all "canned" "hunts" in the same light.

 Blanket statements like that are the sure sign of an extreemist organization.

( HSUS hyperlink purposley omited. )

[NONYA]

First of all I am not opposed to sombody else doing this type of "hunt" if they want to do it elsewhere,I dont want these pens of elk and deer in my state endagering the welfare and health of the animals we hunt every year and I dont know why anyone would.Each state would have to develope a Department of thier F&G to keep an eye on the opperations and test thier animals for various diseases (you have to kill the animal to test for CWD),this would never work,and whos gonna pay for it?Tax payers?The ranch owners?Right.....Our state cant afford to hire the gamewardens we need now.Are we gonna raise tag prices so these guys can get rich selling hunts?Raise taxes?Never happen in my state.There have been states that have had to wipe out an entire areas deer population because they contracted CWD,and CWD starts from game animals being confined in small areas.Now what do I consider a canned hunt?Any hunt where there is a high fence and there is no chance of escape for the animal,any hunt where the animals show up to a feeder or water tank that is usually set to dispense at a certian time.I have been on one of these big 100,000 thousand acre game ranchs in Mountian Home Texas and they are segmented into smaller sections with these high fences so they can control and seperate different species,its not one big pen as they would have you believe.All the game showed up at the feeders as scheduled and none of the game showed any fear of humans.As I said Im not against the "hunt" Im against the risk of having these ranchs in  my state,keep em in Texas 3/4 of the state is behind a high fence anyhow.

[big medicine]

There is a lot of misinformation about CWD, and putting the blame on captive herds has so far not proven to be true. There is CWD in areas where there are no captive herds. And as far as testing on captive herds it IS required. I have a friend that raises elk, he has had to test his herd. When an elk gets butchered he has to have it tested. They couldnt shoot them in the head because they needed the brains to test for the CWD. So captive herds do get tested.

[NONYA]

From what i have read and heard from Hunting Organizations it is an accepted fact that CWD made its appearance after captive herds in a Colorado College program made it out into the wild and spread it,they were kept confined in the same pens as other game animals and sheep and this was the beginning of CWD in the US.It is a brain disease that is common in sheep but not as deadly for them,in deer and elk it is always fatal and it spreads quickly.When herds of these animals are kept confined it speeds the spread of the disease.

[jh45gun]

Lee and Dukkkillr you both know what I meant by I am against bans of anykind I meant that for hunting or gun ownership. To stretch it out of context is foolish. Then I have seen that happen a lot here lately.

[Lee]

Hello Mr jh45gun

Yes,  I agree my previous example could be considered out of context but the reasoning still applies.

But here is  another example that will be closer to the context.

Should hunters be be allowed to hunt bunnies with RPG's just because banning anything related to hunting is a bad thing?

I dont believe it is sensible to say nothing related to hunting should ever be banned.   Liberty has its limitations.

[FWiedner]

... Liberty has its limitations

Anyone recognize an oxymoron when it's head pops up?

Hmmm..., smells like New York...

 

[Lee]

Mr  FWiedner

Liberty can not be unrestrained because there are
those who would abuse it.

Oxymoron, yes, but you seem critical and doubtful.

Now if you dont believe liberty  should  be
limited try this,  punch someone in the nose in
the presence of a police officer.

You may do this in any state,  feel free to make
N York your first test case and see if you like
the smell of a New York jail.

[FWiedner]

Mr. Lee;

You, like many people who doubt their own ability to control themselves when unsupervised by a big brother, have confused Liberty with stupidity.

It is well known that any Liberty comes with the responsibility to respect the equal Liberty of your fellow man.

 :-)

[Lee]

Mr FWiedner,

This whole discussion began within the framework of the state of Indiana and the  context of the rule of law.

Now you want to switch to a dictionary description of liberty in an apparantly lawless context akin to the wild west.    

Ok, I am confused.

[FWiedner]

Lee;

You provided an example of what you regard as personal Liberty gone wild in the context of canned hunts, i.e., hunting bunnies with an RPG.

I found your statement "Liberty has its limitations" to be both curious and self-contradictory.  I said so, and speculated that such an outlook might be the result of exposure to an environment known to cultivate such negative liberal/socialist opinions.

By my reading, you feel that government imposed regulation of personal Liberties is the solution to preventing some perceived or anti-social misbehavior.

You went on to suggest that blatantly breaking the law by executing an unprovoked assault against another person in the presence of a police officer might be a suitable method to demonstrate the reasonable limits of said personal Liberty.

I explained that I believe that such would not be so much an exercise in Liberty, as in stupidity.

Try as they might, no government has been able to outlaw stupidity.

That being said, we obviously have different ideas on where the boundaries of personal Liberty might be, which brings me back to the topic discussion.

Why shouldn't a fellow be able to hunt bunnies with an RPG as long as no one else gets hurt and no property is unlawfully destroyed or damaged in the process?

 :-)

[NONYA]

We all know that an rpg is illegal for us to own but used in a context to show an extreme it is quite proper.It is perfectly legal for me to hunt a bunny with a .50 bmg here in Montana,or any game animal for that matter,but who would want to?Would you consider shooting an elk a mile away with a .50 on a tripod hunting?I wouldnt,but I dont care if someone else does as long as it does not effect my hunting.I can promise you that if this style of hunting became popular there would be an uproar from the liberals and would soon be illegal,I dont want to see any restriction on caliber for hunting so I would prefer if people didnt,but I wouldnt tell them they shouldnt.There are many methods of hunting that are popular around the US that draw attention and give the antis all the fuel they need to draw attention to thier cause,hunting with dogs,baiting,canned hunts,trapping,ect,ect.I hate to see these bastards making progress due to these methods of hunting but Im not about to condem them as a method just because they are used against us by the antis.I love hunting lions with hounds and it is the only way to hunt them with any certianty here in MT,the antis say it is horrible,do they relize how many deer,elk,ect we save every time we take a lion out of the foodchain?Do they care?I often think that the hunters I know are way more concerned about the welfare of the animals in thier area than any of the antis are,they just want to take away somthing from someone they dispise,us.The people I know that are connected to running a game ranch see nothing but dollar signs when they look at the animals they own,they dont give a s*** about the rights of the average hunter who hunts the traditional method(low fences).I have met many of them at Safari Club conventions and they are concerned about who has the best genetics in thier whitetail and keeping thier prices competative,not the fact that thier animals can infect the wild animals across thier fence with diseases like CWD.Safari Club isthe only organization that allows animals killed behind a fence to be entered into thier books and they promote this style of hunting every chance they get.Why?because a large majority of thier board own game ranches and thier organization is all about money.Lets face it,if there wasnt money to be made of these fenced in animals nobody would be hunting this way. :wink:

[Savage .250]

Thursday the state legislaters voted to ban canned hunts in the state of Indiana. In the first place I don't see how a sportsman could call this hunting. The Department of Conservation said they wouldn't start enforcement until 2006.

 I`ll  TAKE IT ONE STEP FURTHER, HOW CAN ONE CALL HIMSELF/HERSELF A HUNTER??
   I guess different strokes for different folks applies here.
 
  " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[big medicine]

Why shouldn't a fellow be able to hunt bunnies with an RPG as long as no one else gets hurt and no property is unlawfully destroyed or damaged in the process?

exactly! Where does the line get drawn? A 12ga will do just about as much damage to a bunny and people use them every year. Or does it come do to "I think it is only sporting to use a 22, so no one else should be able to use any thing but a 22. Because we dont want the antis to get the wrong idea."

I could care less what the antis think. Nothing we do is going to make them think it is ok. We have become a country that worries too much what someone else thinks. We dont want to do something if it might offend someone else. If someone else is offended because we hunt bunnies with an "RPG", well they dont have to watch or partake, as long as they dont get hurt what business is it of theirs. For the antis it boils down to the fact they dont like the act of hunting one bit, it is not the method or the weapon used it is the fact that we do it at all. But they use that excuse to divide hunters, shooters, sportsman ect. If someone is that worried that it might upset the antis, maby they should just quit hunting all together. Because the act of killing an animal does offend the antis.

I`ll TAKE IT ONE STEP FURTHER, HOW CAN ONE CALL HIMSELF/HERSELF A HUNTER??

What if they have never hunted before and this is the first chance they have ever had? What if it is some old guy who can barely get around and is about all he can handle anymore? Somebody who lives in the city and doesnt have anywhere else to go?

What is a real hunter? How far does a real hunter take a shot at game? What kind of weapon does a real hunter use? Does a real hunter stalk their prey or ambush it as it walks by? Who gets to set the standards and judge?

not the fact that thier animals can infect the wild animals across thier fence with diseases like CWD

This keeps comming up. We do not have deer farms here in NEBR it is against the law to have a captive deer heard. We have CWD so where did it come from?? Maby the guy with a captive herd should be blaming the wild herd for the disease. Again you might read some good info on CWD but here are a few quotes.

The mission of the CWD Alliance is to promote responsible and accurate communications regarding CWD, and to support strategies that effectively control CWD to minimize its impact on wild, free-ranging deer and elk populations.

The origin of CWD is not known and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose. Though of academic interest, determining the origin is probably not very important from a management perspective; nonetheless, speculation continues.

The first positive farmed elk herd in the United States was detected in 1997 in South Dakota.

In the mid-1980s, CWD was detected in free-ranging deer and elk in contiguous portions of northeastern Colorado and southeastern Wyoming.

It may be possible that CWD is a spontaneous TSE that arose in deer in the wild or in captivity and has biological features promoting transmission to other deer and elk

The fact is where have no idea where CWD came from or why. At least be factual about it, and not place blame where it may not lay. Here are some sites with info on CWD. You can do a search and come up with a lot more.

http://www.cwd-info.org/

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/nahps/cwd/

Find a credible source that says that CWD is because of a captive herd.

[NONYA]

NO we do know where it came from,a state sponsored program at a college in CO.Captive herds kept in the same pens that sheep were kept in and then released into the wild after the study program was finished.Thats fact not speculation.I dont know why you refuse to accept the facts? Spontanious?LOL right and maybe they were infected by aliens!!We know where it came from,do some research that is independent,not from the people who dont want to lay blame.

[Leverdude]

Probly he was crawling under the fence.  

[NONYA]

Where is CWD found

CWD was first identified in Colorado deer belonging to several research facilities in 1967, and was diagnosed later in captive and wild deer and elk in northern Colorado and southern Wyoming. In the 1970s, CWD occurred at a zoo in Canada in mule deer that had been imported from a zoological park in Colorado. Recently, CWD has also been found in farmed elk in several areas of the United States and in the province of Saskatchewan. Since 1996, CWD has been diagnosed on game ranches in Saskatchewan. Measures designed to prevent the spread of CWD have been taken in all cases. There are approximately 386 farms and 28,000 farmed elk in Saskatchewan. On April 3, 2001, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) confirmed that a wild mule deer in Saskatchewan had tested positive for CWD. This is the first case of CWD in the wild animal population in Canada.


The CFIA routinely monitors for CWD. In 1988, a Farmed Cervid Program was created to monitor the health status of game-farmed deer and elk as there was evidence that cervids posed a potential health risk for the spread of tuberculosis and brucellosis to Canadian cattle. Each farmed cervid herd is tested every three years for tuberculosis and, at that time, CFIA inspectors examine each animal for signs of neurological disease. In addition, deer and elk carcasses sent to provincial laboratories for post mortem examinations are screened for CWD as part of an ongoing surveillance program. Since 1990, the CFIA has monitored the movement of these farmed cervid species by requiring the issuance of movement permits for these animals.


this info came from the canadian govts animal healthcare site,it could be a conspiracy but these are the facts... this is how CWD got to Canada,from Colorado and the same programs i posted about above.

[NONYA]

here is a link to a pdf page with the facts,Dl and read it,it gives you the facts not the theroys.
www.huntingandfishingjournal.org/ archives/issues/cwd-ia-lead-story.pdf

[big medicine]

NO we do know where it came from,a state sponsored program at a college in CO.Captive herds kept in the same pens that sheep were kept in and then released into the wild after the study program was finished.Thats fact not speculation.I dont know why you refuse to accept the facts? Spontanious?LOL right and maybe they were infected by aliens!!We know where it came from,do some research that is independent,not from the people who dont want to lay blame.

Again show me the source of your information. Since it is such a well known fact you should be able to at least produce the source to back up what you say. Here is the paragraph in full from the Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance, which is a joint project of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Boone and Crockett Club, and Mule Deer Foundation.

The origin of CWD is not known and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose. Though of academic interest, determining the origin is probably not very important from a management perspective; nonetheless, speculation continues. Scrapie, a TSE of domestic sheep, has been recognized in the United States since 1947, and it is possible that CWD was derived from scrapie. Arguments can be made both for and against this hypothesis. It is possible, though never proven, that deer came into contact with scrapie agent either on shared pastures or in captivity somewhere along the front range of the Rocky Mountains, where high levels of sheep grazing occurred in the early 1900s. In addition, in vitro models suggest there is less of a species barrier to interspecies TSE transmission between deer, elk, and sheep than between these cervids and either cattle or humans. However, CWD has never been identified in other areas of North America or other parts of the world where cervids and domestic sheep with scrapie must have co-mingled. Strain typing experiments determined that CWD is not like known scrapie strains, though direct comparisons with North American scrapie strains has not been conducted. Experimental transmission of CWD to a domestic goat by intracerebral inoculation had a prolonged incubation; shorter incubation would be expected with scrapie strains in goats. Experimental scrapie in cattle and lesions of CWD in cattle are quite different.

I have done reasearch on it, that is why I'm asking you to show me the source of your claim. There is a difference between hypothesis and fact. The fact is we still dont know a lot about CWD. Such as what causes it. How it is transmitted ect.The most supported theory is that it is caused by prions, the key word being theory. The mechanism of transmission is unclear. Again theory suggest it is transmitted from animal to animal. But the route that the agent is shed from infected animals is unknown. Fact, we have no idea what the route of infection is. What is interesting is that feeding practices in farmed deer and elk herds has not been associated with the transmission of CWD. But feeding wild herds concentrates the animals and may contribute to the spread of the disease, we dont know.

If you can explain all this to me please feel free to do so, but show me some credible sources.

[NONYA]

I just shared 2 sources with you,im not trying to prove anything to a person who already has thier mind made up,you think th Colorado F&G is gonna take credit for starting and spreading a disease that threatens the entire deer herds of NA?The CO F&G sponsors the assoc. you quoted your info from,go beyond what you read on your websites,read some INDEPENDENT reports,like the one from Canada.NAHC did an investigation of thier own and reported these facts in an issue of thier mag from last fall or winter,Im sure you can locate them in a library archive if you are willing to make an effort to find it.I know where and why,what matters is keeping it out of my state and if that means no game ranch's then Im glad we outlawed them here and I hope it stays that way.Anyone who is concerned about thier native herds should also be concerned about having these captive herds in thier states.

[big medicine]

So since CWD was FIRST observed at the CO facility that is where it all started. Here are a couple things to ponder. It is entirely possible that the disease has been present for much longer than we have known it to exist, and it was only first observed in the study herd at the research facility in CO. Look at deer and elk populations now compared to 40 or 50 years ago. The populations have increased tremendously which means deer and elk have been concentrated in greater numbers then they have been in the past, making it easer for disease to spread. Animals could have died from CWD and were never observed until the herd at the research facility. Here in NEBR the deer population in 1900 was estimated at around 100 deer. People never saw deer, so if a few of them died no one would have seen them either. We now have areas with bonus tags ans extra tags with bonus tags on them. Deer are more concentrated now than they have ever been in history.

I have read the NAHC article last year, and you might go back and read it and the link you posted from Montana. I spent the better part of a college semester doing research about CWD so I have read a few articles on it. You made the comment

im not trying to prove anything to a person who already has thier mind made up

I dont have my mind made up. I agree 100% that is a possibility that the disease started in CO, but there are other places where sheep concentrations have been high like the  Sierra Nevadas and deer have not been observed to have CWD so the theory doesnt always prove out. It is also possible that research herd had nothing to do with CWD. It is possible that disease started with a mutaion of a prion and spread from there. Look at HIV for an expmple. It mutates and changes making it difficult to treat, the flu virus is another example it changes making using the same vaccine ineffective. Bacteria mutates and becomes resistant to anitbiotics. Is it a conspiracy or did the aliens do that also? The easy to way to not come up with a cure for something is to see only one possibility for it and follow that road, ignoring other possible explainations along the way. Who knows, science could change tomorrow and could find out that prions have nothing to do with CWD, they could just be markers for a yet unkown disese causing agent.

[Savage .250]

big medicine:
    When i said,".......different strokes for different folks" i  left the door open to cover your follow-up.  
   My thoughts were for the hunter (or so called) not the week-end warrior,
   wheel chair bound,  over weight, short on time/money or Attorney who wants a trophy without the work, or anybody else who thinks "hunting"
  is shooting an animal inside a fence and then posing for a picture. Sad.
  AS like you, these are just my thoughts and not ment to create any
   hostility.  
 
   " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[big medicine]

Savage,
I have to agree with you, for me it wouldnt be hunting. It is just shooting an animal, not much different than going our behind the barn and shooting a hog or cow. I'm sorry if it sounded hostile, it was not ment to be that way.