Author Topic: load for african game?  (Read 2110 times)

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Offline Phoneman

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load for african game?
« on: August 14, 2005, 04:09:16 AM »
What would be the best load for african game I could put through my h&r? I don't mind recoil, But I am also a firm believer in shot placement. So the single shot doesn't bother me. I would like something that is relatively flat out to 200 yards. I have heard the 450 marlin and the 45-70 loaded a little hot would get the job done. But alot of people use the 375 H&H. Going to africa is just a dream right now. But I Would be one step closer If I had the gun for it. I could also use my 50 cal muzzleloader. I'm very confident in that gun. 150 gr. pyrodex 295 gr. powerbelt. I can hold very nice groups out to 300 yards. I wouldn't be going after lions or water buffalo. more like kudu and smaller plains animals. you guys are very knowledgeable and any input would be appreciated.

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2005, 06:18:54 AM »
I'm gonna defer this to those in the know.....The .375 H&H is a minimum required for a lot of game in Africa, but I know that other game is taken with less gun, too. The Africa Hunting forum down the page would be a good place to peruse for a start. Using a single shot may be considered less than practical by many, but it has been done in the past by many, too!

speaking of single shots, check this 4 page story out...

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/bully_041805/

It's part of the reason I had a 38-55 Target rebored and rechambered to 405 Winchester. I also had a 25-06 rebored to .338-06, another caliber commonly used in Africa....

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline handirifle

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load for african game?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2005, 06:31:16 AM »
My brother is doing most of the legwork, but those he has talked to over there say the 30-06 is the most common caliber brought over for plains type, non-dangerous game.

But the two rounds Quick has mentioned, both, have more power.

A 200gr Nosler Partition or Fail Safe from an '06 should do pretty well.
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2005, 06:43:03 AM »
I have always daydreamed of going over there one day to hunt...and have thought about using my Handis when I go...I can see the post on my return..."A Handi in Africa"...that would be cool....There are a few calibers that come to mind.The 45-70...or the 450 Marlin would work.....mine and Quicks 338-06's would work rather nicely too...where they meet the minimum caliber restriction...if you could have some headstamped brass made up...(I hear your brass has to match the gun)...a 375-06 would provide for you...but...the one which looks most promising to me so-far...is the 9..3 x 62mm Mauser...the 338-06,375-06,and the 9.3x63mm are all rebores...and this will certainly add additional expenses but they should work great.The Frank Barnes Cartridges of the World 10th edition..says that at one time it was the9.3x62mm was the most widely used medium bore in Africa...and when most of the countries were adopting restrictive laws specifying minimum calibers...almost universally the 9.3x62mm was exempted from the ban in most countries..

Mac
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Offline Phoneman

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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2005, 07:17:19 AM »
been reading alot of ballistic charts. I don't reload. mostly because of time. so far the 375 H&H looks the best on paper for what I want. pretty flat out to 200 yards and still has some knockdown power. Since H&R doesn't make one what caliber should I have fitted to the gun so I could have it rechambered? Right now I have a 223 ultra.
   The 375 has almost 1400 ft lbs. more energy in a 270 gr. bullet at 200 yards. and about 300 fps faster than the 30-06.  I think I would rather be safe than sorry. I owe it to the animal to make a perfectly clean kill. I would feel under gunned with a 30-06.

Offline Phoneman

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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2005, 07:25:30 AM »
Most important part. Could the frame handle the recoil of a 375 H&H.

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2005, 07:49:47 AM »
I think the .375H&H would be asking a little too much of the Handi frame for very many shots, the .375-06 would be tops from what I know. Even though the pressure of the .375H&H is well within the range of other Handi calibers, the case head size is considerably bigger on the H&H which changes the viability of that cartridge in a Handi.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

Tim



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Offline R.W.Dale

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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2005, 07:55:26 AM »
Quick is correct, mabye we need a sticky on the top of the handi page clearly stating that other than .450 marlin if it has a belt it has no place being mentioned here.

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2005, 07:59:08 AM »
Even the beltless magnums like the WSMs are pretty much out of the question for the Handi's frame design.....unfortunetly. :cry:
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2005, 08:06:22 AM »
I don't believe the Handi can handle the 375H&H...it's strong..but not strong enough..if you want a single shot 375H&H...then there are other single shots which would be more appropriate...if you want one of the other calibers mentioned...a 26" 25-06 Barrel is a good choice...the extra 2" over a 24" barrel would work in your favour for gaining some velocity...or a 24" 223 barrel could be used...same as a 30-06 Ultra-Comp barrel...which might be a-lot easier to shoot the real heavy loads in...I've given some serious thoughts to reboring one to 375-06..

Taking up reloading isn't all that bad...and can help you when dealing with expensive ammo...or those strange calibers ...not to mention being able to fine tune your rifle for the ammo selection and increasing your accuracy...

Mac
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2005, 08:19:02 AM »
If you want an over the counter Handi in a good as it gets caliber for the Handi, look for a 35 Whelen RMEF commemorative Ultra, it has a 26" barrel and would be fine for just about anything it's legal for in Africa. Unfortunetly, there were only a little over 400 of them built. :(

Tim

http://graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=40371&sid=19f4323ef88ba7ff39d45f0f186936a3
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Offline poncaguy

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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2005, 08:43:30 AM »
I would think the 500 S&W and 460 S&W in a Handi would do well, just don't know about the range or ballistics in a 22" Handi barrel.Haven't seen any for a 22' or longer barrel...........I would think the 45-70 would do well too.......Bell and his 7X57 Mauser did well. :grin:

Offline Phoneman

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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2005, 10:21:41 AM »
35 whelen sounds pretty good. who manufactures ammo for it though? or would I have to reload?

Quick is correct, mabye we need a sticky on the top of the handi page clearly stating that other than .450 marlin if it has a belt it has no place being mentioned here.

I suppose that if I had known the 375 H&H wouldn't work with the handi I wouldn't have asked the question.

Offline quickdtoo

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Offline Fred M

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load for african game?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2005, 05:52:08 PM »
Four years ago I hunted in Africa with two professional hunters "PH" they call them. Two down to earth no nonsense guys.

Here is what I learned. The most used rifles are the 30-06 , the 7x64 and the 223. This ammo is made in Africa and is readily available. One other rifle is the 6mm-303 a standard caliber. They call it the 6mm Musgrave.

They also told me when some one shows up with magnum rifle they say O' O'. Here comes another one that can't shoot.

I got a bit of a dubious reception when I showed up with a 7mm-08AI, and was right away taken out to a range to find out what I could do with this rifle, only to find out that I outshot both of them, not by much.

They brought out their 375 H&H and had me shoot it at 100yards at a 4 inch steel hanging plate, just in case my wee gun was not up yo the job. I said If I hit the gong, do I have to shoot more than one shot with this brute. They said no one is enough if you hit it.

Well I was off the hook, simply no contest. I toke all my plains game with one shot each except one, the Kudu toke two, all with 139gr bullets and on 175gr Round nose on an Impala. And we shot a whole lot of other small stuff like a type of burrowing rabbit and a Warthog.

Also had a tremendous dove shoot in a big Sunflower field. We had a bunch of kids running on all four doing the retrieving, they never lost a bird. It was scary to have all these kids runnining around in front of your gun. They loved it  for they kept all the birds.

Anybody with an 06 or 280 (7x64) is well off.  280Rem ammo was not available so you should bring it with you. There were two simple wildcats these two guys liked. A 7.62x 65 and a 7x65. Made from 270 brass. The forward part is 308 Win or 7mm-08 with an 06 body blown out. The dies are either 308 ore 7mm08 with an  extension. Spells cheap with a local reamer.

Performance is like a 300H&H or the 7mm mag. fitting a standard long Mauser or the local Musgrave action with no modification. Brass and bullets are mostly all local.

One local gov. hunter used a 223 to cull Buffalo with armor piercing bullets. One shot game over. These guys really know how to shoot.

The big killer was the malaria medicine, god did it make me sick.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline handirifle

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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2005, 08:32:53 PM »
Nice post Fred, I still need to read your article.
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Offline cowkiller

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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2005, 12:42:38 AM »
Fred that was enjoyable thank-you.
has anyone reamed a 38-55 out to a 375-06? will it work? is the barrel twist right? is the diameter correct or is it .377? thanks as I am considering building one of these called a 375 scovill or hawk. I was considering a b...b...bolt gun but looked at a 38-55bh yesterday at sportsman's warehouse that would be perfect for what I have planned

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2005, 05:08:19 AM »
The 38-55's bore is too large for a .375 anything along with the rim of the 38-55 being .506". A .25-06 Ultra is the most likely donor for a .338-06 or .375-06 rebore with its 26" barrel. The Target makes a dandy 405 Winchester, though!!! If you haven't checked into the cost of a rebore/rechamber, it would be $375 for the rechamber/rebore and the die sets are $125 for the .375 Hawk.

http://www.z-hat.com/HawkCartridges.htm
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Offline Badnews Bob

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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2005, 10:10:54 AM »
I read an articale about a guy hunting cape buffalo with a marlin guide gun .45-70.  He shot a large bull buff and dropped him with one shot he didn't move niether did the cow he dropped that was standing behind the bull! To buff one shot, Not to bad for the ole .45-70. 8)
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2005, 10:13:16 AM »
Check out Vince Lupo's african experiences with a 45-70 levergun....

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
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Offline Zeke Menuar

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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2005, 10:16:02 AM »
I started a thread here http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=69323 about turning a Handi into a 9.3 x 62.  Everything discussed is in the realm of the theoretical but such a conversion seems to be possible.  

If I choose not to turn my M1917 Enfield into a 9.3 x 62, I may see if I can find a way to turn a Handi into a 9.3.

ZM
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Offline Cottonwood

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Re: load for african game?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2005, 11:36:27 AM »
Quote from: Phoneman
What would be the best load for african game I could put through my h&r? I don't mind recoil, But I am also a firm believer in shot placement. So the single shot doesn't bother me. I would like something that is relatively flat out to 200 yards. I have heard the 450 marlin and the 45-70 loaded a little hot would get the job done. But alot of people use the 375 H&H. Going to africa is just a dream right now. But I Would be one step closer If I had the gun for it. I could also use my 50 cal muzzleloader. I'm very confident in that gun. 150 gr. pyrodex 295 gr. powerbelt. I can hold very nice groups out to 300 yards. I wouldn't be going after lions or water buffalo. more like kudu and smaller plains animals. you guys are very knowledgeable and any input would be appreciated.


I know that Garrett Cartridges has a 500-GRAIN SPEER TUNGSTEN SOLID AT 1530-FPS that is rated for Elephant, Rhino and Hippo.  $180 / 20 CTGS


I have a super hard cast 510-gr Elk Buster bullet that will do the same thing too, some call them the Thor's Hammer but these work very well on difficult game.  These that I have will go thru both shoulders of a bison or elk and even moose  :shock:

540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS $50 / 20 CTGS


Here is a pic of a Hippo take with Garret's 540-gr super hard cast


Here is a Rhino taken with a 540-gr super hard cast


Here is an Elephant taken with a 540-gr super hard cast


It is no problem IF you load your own to duplicate Garrett cartridges and what they can do.. if you don't, use the link and order your own... but they are spendy  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2005, 11:43:41 AM »
The Speer African Grand Slams are on sale at Midway....get em while they're hot for $19 off at only $57 a box.......of 25!!!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=528023

The one on the left is an AGS loaded in a 45-120....
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2005, 12:33:42 PM »
For the 375 Hawk/Scovil, they actually recommended the 280 rem barrel over the 25-06.  The Hawk will clean up the chamber.  The 375-06 or RCBS improved will not clean up the 280 chamber, but the 25-06 will work if going to just the 375-06 or 375 Whelen.

I'm sure these pack a lot of power, but I'n never use them on dangerous game, not even here in North America (grizzly?)  I'd want a repeater, but that is me.
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2005, 12:47:31 PM »
Handi, did you ask them if they'd rechamber/bore a Handi to a Hawk? Seems to me I read somewhere on their web site that they would only do bolt rifles, but I can't find that now, it's been a while!!! :oops:
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Cottonwood

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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2005, 01:09:50 PM »
Tim

Here is a pic of my heaviest hitter in .458-550-gr Super Hard Cast, I have probably 1,000 or more of these on hand.  This one is loaded for my 45-90  8)  This one is loaded with 35.0 gr of Accurate Arms MP 5744 and shoots very accurately in my Remington Rolling Block with its 32" barrel.


Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2005, 01:19:29 PM »
Those AGS bullets are just for fun, Mac sent me 5 of em just to see how well they worked. My favorite right now is the 525gr Beartooth Pile-driver which actually weighs 539grs in a .459" and shoots excellent out of the 45-120 at 1700fps w/44.5gr of 5744....just kicks a lot!!

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/details.php?id=117

Quote
For MAXIMUM penetration here's your bullet for .45-70's! Longest, Widest nose possible and still feed through the magazine and action of a Marlin 1895 and Winchester 1886. An amazing bullet! Very accurate. The absolute last word in EXTREME penetration for the .45-70 Gov't., Beartooth Bullets Pile-Driver bullet!


"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline handirifle

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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2005, 02:26:29 PM »
Quick
Yes he will.  When I get home I can post his reply, prices included.  He IS pricey though and the dies alone were $125.

I THINK it was either $275 or $375 for the rechamber, re-bore.  Like I said, pricey and long turn around time,  But he does have the market cornered on THAT version and has load data for them too.  I think I read he has safely pushed the 270gr to 2700fps from a 24" barrel.
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2005, 02:32:35 PM »
It would be interesting to know that a Handi can take that pressure!! I know you posted the cost at $375 for the rebore/chamber and the die set was $125.....then ya gotta buy the load data from em too!!

http://www.z-hat.com/HawkCartridges.htm

Thx!!
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2005, 02:38:50 PM »
Yea, I think he intends to recoup the cost of his research. :shock:
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