.223 for deer

[222]

I have done it and won't do it again. Use a deer cal. .243 or more deer and reserve the .223s for varmints.
222

[Arier Blut]

Anybody have any experience with the 60gr Nosler Partition in a .223 for deer. Looks like it still has about 1000 ft/lbs of energy @ 100 yds and would do the job if you didn't try to stretch it too far. My wife wants to try deer hunting this year, she shoots well but is very recoil sensitive. I thought this might be a viable alternative since she doesn't handle the recoil of even a .243 too well.

Would be better for her to sit it out then. Not being mean, but how do you think she is going to feel if it runs away injured and has to suffer. Plenty of recoil reducing devices out there. Shooters shield, magnaport, mercury rod and limbsaver butt pad come to mind. Used in conjunction a 300 mag would most likely be under a .223. No reason to have her go out and wound a deer. A light power deer caliber like a 7-30 waters with a few of the above and some amplified hearing protection will set her up for success instead of failure.

[rickt300]

Anybody have any experience with the 60gr Nosler Partition in a .223 for deer. Looks like it still has about 1000 ft/lbs of energy @ 100 yds and would do the job if you didn't try to stretch it too far. My wife wants to try deer hunting this year, she shoots well but is very recoil sensitive. I thought this might be a viable alternative since she doesn't handle the recoil of even a .243 too well.

Would be better for her to sit it out then. Not being mean, but how do you think she is going to feel if it runs away injured and has to suffer. Plenty of recoil reducing devices out there. Shooters shield, magnaport, mercury rod and limbsaver butt pad come to mind. Used in conjunction a 300 mag would most likely be under a .223. No reason to have her go out and wound a deer. A light power deer caliber like a 7-30 waters with a few of the above and some amplified hearing protection will set her up for success instead of failure.



This is pretty outrageous.  I have seen so many deer taken effectivley with the 223 you could easily fill a tractor trailor with them. In fact the 223 has become pretty common as a deer gun in Texas, you see about as many of them here as you do 243's. A good hit is a good hit, those who think a bigger gun will make up for a bad hit are the ones wounding game.

[Arier Blut]

Anybody have any experience with the 60gr Nosler Partition in a .223 for deer. Looks like it still has about 1000 ft/lbs of energy @ 100 yds and would do the job if you didn't try to stretch it too far. My wife wants to try deer hunting this year, she shoots well but is very recoil sensitive. I thought this might be a viable alternative since she doesn't handle the recoil of even a .243 too well.

Would be better for her to sit it out then. Not being mean, but how do you think she is going to feel if it runs away injured and has to suffer. Plenty of recoil reducing devices out there. Shooters shield, magnaport, mercury rod and limbsaver butt pad come to mind. Used in conjunction a 300 mag would most likely be under a .223. No reason to have her go out and wound a deer. A light power deer caliber like a 7-30 waters with a few of the above and some amplified hearing protection will set her up for success instead of failure.



This is pretty outrageous.  I have seen so many deer taken effectivley with the 223 you could easily fill a tractor trailor with them. In fact the 223 has become pretty common as a deer gun in Texas, you see about as many of them here as you do 243's. A good hit is a good hit, those who think a bigger gun will make up for a bad hit are the ones wounding game.

Rick this was a thread about a new shooter.

[anweis]

Use a proper bullet like the Nosler Partitian or the Speer 70 gr.  and dead is dead.  

I would not hesitate to use a .223, loaded with 62 grain Barnes TSX or some other heavy hunting bullet on our small deer. Problem is, i often hear people talking about firearms and ammunition and hunting, and they don't know squat. The other day i heard a fellow talking about hunting with his AR 15 in .223 with "boat tail bullets, because they are better for hunting".
My hesitation to approve the .223 is not because this cartridge is impotent in the hands of people who know what they are doing, but because of the thousands who will purchase FMJ ammo for $6.99 at Walmart and go hunting. Good hunting ammo in .223 is not commonly available in stores. So, no. I would not vote in favor of it.

[Mohawk]

  I've seen the .223 and .222 used quite effectively on whitetail. Behind the shoulder broad side and they fell within 50yds. A standard Remington 50-55gr soft point should do it. Hogs, NO. Whitetails, YES.

[rickt300]

I would say fully 90% of the use of the 223 on deer that I have witnessed was by very young hunters, many on their first hunt. And beyond that I'd say 90% used the standard 55 grain soft points from the big three.  Seeing a few rounds of Winchesters 64 grain load lately though.

[R.W.Dale]

SUCCESS!

Colt  603 upper, Retro A1 AR15

223rem 55grn sierra gameking SPBT loaded over a max charge of H-335

range was no more than 30yds, two shots were fired my placement on the first shot for whatever reason wasn't too great striking high and farther forward than I would have liked. After being hit this deer jumped what had to be 10 feet straight up and got about half a stride away before I shot him again (one of the benefits to the AR) my second shot was apparently a CNS hit to the neck because his next and last move was to make a rather spectacular face plant into the creek (splash!)

even though my first shot was kinda poor it's placement did a great job of showing what this bullet can do. It went through one leg, shoulder, ribcage on both sides and ended up somewhere greater than the depth of 3/4 of my index finger but less than exiting into the off shoulder. The neck shot was through and through with a good ragged dime sized exit.



pic shows the bullet hole going INTO the ribcage after passing through the leg and shoulder.

deer on its back, looking down towards the spine

[JASmith]

The common thread among the ".223 for deer" proponents is proper shot placement — I couldn't agree more.

The dilemma is that we don't always succeed in placing the shot "just so" and we wound game without knowing.  I've seen it happen.

Further -- how many readers (but not contributors) read these discussions but don't have the self-discipline to wait until the presentation is just perfect and within 150-200 yards so the bullet will hit precisely plus both expand and penetrate deeply enough?

The larger calibers have earned their reputation through a huge amount of experience.

Let's not make a game of "proving" that a small caliber will do the job.  They can -- as amply proven by folks using .22 rimfires, hornets, and pistols.  The point is the folks doing this have the patience or the luxury of large numbers of game animals to choose good shots with. 

Most of us have neither the luxury, patience or skills to reliably take game with calibers smaller that .25 or 6 mm.

[Skunk]

SUCCESS!
223rem 55grn sierra gameking SPBT loaded over a max charge of H-335

Nice going Krochus! I used to be one of those who said "never use a .223 for Whitetail," that is, until I gained a little experience with one and realized what it could do if used properly.

Just curious, are you using small rifle magnum primers with the H335?

[R.W.Dale]

SUCCESS!
223rem 55grn sierra gameking SPBT loaded over a max charge of H-335

Nice going Krochus! I used to be one of those who said "never use a .223 for Whitetail," that is, until I gained a little experience with one and realized what it could do if used properly.

Just curious, are you using small rifle magnum primers with the H335?

Sorta, I use a cci #41 which is supposed to be a harder equivalent to their magnum SR primer

[basshawg37]

I think the 22-250 is a better caliber for deer and just purchased one for my little boy. It is a weatherby vanjgaurd in youth model because he is very small. We sited the rifle in with 55 grain nosler partition bullets and got a half inch group at 100 yards. My little boy shoots it with only one hand and also shoots bullseye and says he dont feel the kick.     

[R.W.Dale]

The common thread among the ".223 for deer" proponents is proper shot placement — I couldn't agree more.

The dilemma is that we don't always succeed in placing the shot "just so" and we wound game without knowing.  I've seen it happen.

Further -- how many readers (but not contributors) read these discussions but don't have the self-discipline to wait until the presentation is just perfect and within 150-200 yards so the bullet will hit precisely plus both expand and penetrate deeply enough?

The larger calibers have earned their reputation through a huge amount of experience.

Let's not make a game of "proving" that a small caliber will do the job.  They can -- as amply proven by folks using .22 rimfires, hornets, and pistols.  The point is the folks doing this have the patience or the luxury of large numbers of game animals to choose good shots with.  

Most of us have neither the luxury, patience or skills to reliably take game with calibers smaller that .25 or 6 mm.

You know as Ive gotten more experienced I've come to the conclusion that caliber does NOT make up for bad shot placement in the slightest. I've wasted more time looking for more unrecoverable deer shot with a darn 30-06 than all other cartridges combined. Just because you use a cartridge starting with at least the number 6 in the metric system does not mean you're any better equipped to shoot deer however they may less than ideally present themselves. Please if the shot isn't good DON'T SHOOT

Saturday I was blind hunting with my 30 HRT upper. This cartridge shoots 125g prohunters at 2625 FPS. I let 4 deer walk because where they were I'd have had to either shot at their head or shot through sagegrass several dozen yds between me and them to hit em. That wasn't a luxury, it was simply the right thing to do.

[Skunk]

Just curious, are you using small rifle magnum primers with the H335?

Sorta, I use a cci #41 which is supposed to be a harder equivalent to their magnum SR primer

Got ya Krochus, thanks, and again nice score with the .223.

[JASmith]

Most of us have neither the luxury, patience or skills to reliably take game with calibers smaller that .25 or 6 mm.

You know as Ive gotten more experienced I've come to the conclusion that caliber does NOT make up for bad shot placement in the slightest. I've wasted more time looking for more unrecoverable deer shot with a darn 30-06 than all other cartridges combined. Just because you use a cartridge starting with at least the number 6 in the metric system does not mean you're any better equipped to shoot deer however they may less than ideally present themselves. Please if the shot isn't good DON'T SHOOT

Saturday I was blind hunting with my 30 HRT upper. This cartridge shoots 125g prohunters at 2625 FPS. I let 4 deer walk because where they were I'd have had to either shot at their head or shot through sagegrass several dozen yds between me and them to hit em. That wasn't a luxury, it was simply the right thing to do.

I agree wholeheartedly with your admonition: "Please if the shot isn't good DON'T SHOOT" and concur that in the right hands and if the shot is right, a .22 longrifle will do the job. 

I do however, stand by my conclusion that none of us should advocate small calibers as the first, or even primary, deer hunting rifle.  There is just too much history suggesting that the deeper penetration and slightly larger wound channel available in the bigger calibers give a valuable extra margin.

Some of the comments in this thread indicate that deer fatally wounded by a well-placed .223 shot frequently don't give an indication of being hit until they topple over after walking 40 or more yards.  (This has been a frequent complaint of 5.56 hits in Afghanistan.)  Combine this shortcoming with the tiny or no blood trail and you have a recipe for wounded and lost animals, particularly withi less experienced hunters.  This is not fun --

[rem700-3]

I say again, I have killed alot of deer with a 223 and 22-250 even more hogs up to 300+ pounds. Know your abilities,know your rifle ,put the bullet in the right spot and its dead. Its so easy that my 8 yo has been doing it since he was 5, hogs and deer combined 27 times, not 1 ever lost or tracked over 60 yards. We shoot 55 gr Hornady sxsp's and put them where they need to go.  I have tracked a lot of deer shot by friends that were shot with mag cannons and never found. How many of you nay screamers bowhunt, now howmany of you bow hunters lie and say that you have never lost a deer? A 223 is a hell of a lot more effetive than a bow, If you dont believe that invite a competent friend to shoot at you at say....125 yards with one and then you return fire with your bow.....There are no degrees of dead...Nothing that breaths air to live will survive a lung shot Or a head shot from a 223 and travel very far, I would not want to try to stop a charging pissed off cape buffalo with a 223, but 100 yards broad side standing still, You better have a sharp knife.

[rem700-3]

Most of us have neither the luxury, patience or skills to reliably take game with calibers smaller that .25 or 6 mm.

You know as Ive gotten more experienced I've come to the conclusion that caliber does NOT make up for bad shot placement in the slightest. I've wasted more time looking for more unrecoverable deer shot with a darn 30-06 than all other cartridges combined. Just because you use a cartridge starting with at least the number 6 in the metric system does not mean you're any better equipped to shoot deer however they may less than ideally present themselves. Please if the shot isn't good DON'T SHOOT

Saturday I was blind hunting with my 30 HRT upper. This cartridge shoots 125g prohunters at 2625 FPS. I let 4 deer walk because where they were I'd have had to either shot at their head or shot through sagegrass several dozen yds between me and them to hit em. That wasn't a luxury, it was simply the right thing to do.

I agree wholeheartedly with your admonition: "Please if the shot isn't good DON'T SHOOT" and concur that in the right hands and if the shot is right, a .22 longrifle will do the job. 

I do however, stand by my conclusion that none of us should advocate small calibers as the first, or even primary, deer hunting rifle.  There is just too much history suggesting that the deeper penetration and slightly larger wound channel available in the bigger calibers give a valuable extra margin.

Some of the comments in this thread indicate that deer fatally wounded by a well-placed .223 shot frequently don't give an indication of being hit until they topple over after walking 40 or more yards.  (This has been a frequent complaint of 5.56 hits in Afghanistan.)  Combine this shortcoming with the tiny or no blood trail and you have a recipe for wounded and lost animals, particularly withi less experienced hunters.  This is not fun --

They are shooting FMJ Bullets in Afganistan, not a reasonable comparison, I have been forced as many to carry that non-sense into combat as well and in case no one explained it to you That bullet is used in the military to wound intentionally and not to kill .. Kill a man in combat you take one man out, wound him you usually take 3 men out..

[JASmith]

They are shooting FMJ Bullets in Afganistan, not a reasonable comparison, I have been forced as many to carry that non-sense into combat as well and in case no one explained it to you That bullet is used in the military to wound intentionally and not to kill .. Kill a man in combat you take one man out, wound him you usually take 3 men out..

I've spent many years in the weapons R&D business and agree that the designers of the 5.56 and other antipersonnel weapons used effectiveness criteria based on how long it takes to cause an individual to stop being able to perform a particular function.  There is, however, a significant correlation between the rapidity of stoppage with killing capacity.

The 5.56 military round is an effective stopper when the impact velocity is high enough to cause the bullet to tumble and break up.  (see, e. g., http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session9/minisi.ppt — File Size 68 Mb!).  This paper makes the important point that the M855 round drops below 2500 feet per second at about 120 meters from the muzzle when fired from the 14.5” barreled M4. This velocity threshold is significant because it is the lowest velocity that causes the bullet to tumble and break up in the wound cavity. Therefore, in many engagements at the longer ranges, the M4 with M855 ammunition very likely created wound ballistics not much beyond those caused by 22 long-rifle ammunition.

We have analagous challenges with hunting -- many of us with service time know that the lowest common denominator in performance usually determines policy and tactics. 

My argument is that most of us should stay away from calibers that require special vigilance to be sure the animal is positioned just right, is within proper range, and that the shot is taken with skill and precision.  The .243 Winchester is the minimum caliber new hunters should use -- nor should a new hunter feel pressured to go larger than the .270 Winchester.   This range of cartridge gives a good combination of low recoil & flat trajectory (hence better chances of shot placement) combined with bullets that have substantial reputations as game stoppers.

The folks who are able to legitimately claim a high success rate with the .223 by and large reflect this guidance in their discussions -- regardless of their age and whether they realize it or not..

[Brithunter]

Hmmm well here in the UK they have just made shooting of the Indian Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer legal with .22 Centre fires, in Scotland it's been legal to hunt Roe with a .22 centre fire using a Min 50 grain bullet at a min velocity of 2450 fps producing at least 1100 ft lbs muzzle energy.

Now I am considering taken a .222 Rem up to Scotland in the new year after Roe Does. Ethical?  should be as a Roe Doe will weight about 45 lbs on the hoof. For our larger deer like the Fallow, Sika and Red Deer I would not consider the .222 Rem although it would likely get it done  not only is it not legal here but let's face it a bigger heavier suitably constructed bullet is better for beasts of 60lbs and upwards. Fallow Bucks get up to around 150 lbs and Sika about the same but Reds then can easily top 300 lbs.

[JASmith]

Hmmm well here in the UK they have just made shooting of the Indian Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer legal with .22 Centre fires, in Scotland it's been legal to hunt Roe with a .22 centre fire using a Min 50 grain bullet at a min velocity of 2450 fps producing at least 1100 ft lbs muzzle energy.

Now I am considering taken a .222 Rem up to Scotland in the new year after Roe Does. Ethical?  should be as a Roe Doe will weight about 45 lbs on the hoof. For our larger deer like the Fallow, Sika and Red Deer I would not consider the .222 Rem although it would likely get it done  not only is it not legal here but let's face it a bigger heavier suitably constructed bullet is better for beasts of 60lbs and upwards. Fallow Bucks get up to around 150 lbs and Sika about the same but Reds then can easily top 300 lbs.

Brithunter, you've broken the code!  Weight of the animal is a major factor.  My arguments above apply to the much larger deer that people seem to lump together with all deer when they claim the .223 is a good deer cartridge.  Your comments are also consistent with recommendations within the Hornady H.I.T.S. calculator (http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator and for explanations see http://www.hornady.com/hits). 

I can agree with you without contradicting my earlier arguments that new deer hunters should use at least a .243 Win or 6mm Rem through the .270 Win class of cartridges.

[rem700-3]

I dont hunt with an M-4, I dont hunt with a 14 inch barrel, I also use expanding bullets. I know what I and my weapon are capable of. There is no point to this argument, if you really think that any animal can function after being shot with a 22 caliber centerfire bullet in a vital organ, you are very wrong. Reading books are great,real life is sometimes much different than the classroom fairy tales.  I use several different calibers to hunt deer depending on the situation and enviroment that I will be hunting. If you are not competent with the firearm you hunt with, practice. A bad shot with a 300 win mag is no better than a bad shot with a 223, its a bad shot. As a hunter you owe it to the animal you hunt to be willing to wait for the shot that will be most effective and be able to preform well enough to pull it off.

I meet a half dozen people every year that are hunting with a rifle that in my opinion is way to much gun, they always say the same thing " I bought this.. because I got tired of shooting deer with a 270,30-06,308,30-30, you pick the caliber, and watching them run of and never finding them".  It aint the gun friends it the shooter......

"My argument is that most of us should stay away from calibers that require special vigilance to be sure the animal is positioned just right, is within proper range, and that the shot is taken with skill and precision."

I would argue that this should apply to every shot no matter the caliber and that is why most of the people that I have met in my life that carry one of the ever popular belted mags cant perform any better with it than they can a 22lr, usually worse. Be proficient with the weapon you choose, be reasonable in the shots you take. I would be scared to guess the number of hogs that I have killed with a 22-250 and 223,it would be in the hundreds in the last couple years alone, from 25 to almost 400 pounds no deer is as tough to bring down as a hog and these two calibers have performed flawlessly.  Proper bullet placement within known limits.  Again I would say that no animal can continue to function with its brain scrambled or its heart or lungs burst IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

[Brithunter]

I dont hunt with an M-4, I dont hunt with a 14 inch barrel, I also use expanding bullets. I know what I and my weapon are capable of. There is no point to this argument, if you really think that any animal can function after being shot with a 22 caliber centerfire bullet in a vital organ, you are very wrong. Reading books are great,real life is sometimes much different than the classroom fairy tales.  I use several different calibers to hunt deer depending on the situation and enviroment that I will be hunting. If you are not competent with the firearm you hunt with, practice. A bad shot with a 300 win mag is no better than a bad shot with a 223, its a bad shot. As a hunter you owe it to the animal you hunt to be willing to wait for the shot that will be most effective and be able to preform well enough to pull it off.

"My argument is that most of us should stay away from calibers that require special vigilance to be sure the animal is positioned just right, is within proper range, and that the shot is taken with skill and precision."

I would argue that this should apply to every shot no matter the caliber and that is why most of the people that I have met in my life that carry one of the ever popular belted mags cant perform any better with it than they can a 22lr, usually worse. Be proficient with the weapon you choose, be reasonable in the shots you take. I would be scared to guess the number of hogs that I have killed with a 22-250 and 223,it would be in the hundreds in the last couple years alone, from 25 to almost 400 pounds no deer is as tough to bring down as a hog and these two calibers have performed flawlessly.  Proper bullet placement within known limits.  Again I would say that no animal can continue to function with its brain scrambled or its heart or lungs burst IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Sorry but it's not cut and dried like you think:-

There is no point to this argument, if you really think that any animal can function after being shot with a 22 caliber centerfire bullet in a vital organ, you are very wrong.

Let me relate a little experieince that my old friend the gamekeeper had a couple of years ago. On his patch he noticed a lone Roe Doe who was staying way out in the fields and not the margins and woods like normal. Cliff watched it through the binos for a few hours trying to get closer to get a better view but the doe just pushed out further into the fields. It was obvious she was not doing well and in fairly poor conditon and finally he made the decison that she needing putting down, that was easier said than done as that meant a long chancy shot through the crop with the chances that entailed of deflection. He finally managed to get a reasonable clear shot and dropped her with his .243 Mannlicher and on examination he found another almost healed over bullet hole less than 2" from his entrance wound, the old wound had a corrisponding healed over wound on the other side  . So on cleaning the carcase which smelled bad he found that someone, we presume a poacher, had poked a bullet through her puncturing both lungs which had then healed to the ribs. If she had not gotten fly blown she might had fully recovered however she was being eaten alive by maggots.

Now either it was a FMJ or a bad bullet and as Cliff controls the shooting on the etsate and had not had a client shoot and not recover a deer someone else must have shot it. There have been reports of strange vehicles and shots at night but no one has been caught doing so. Due to the infection and the maggots it was impossible to say what calibre the injury was likely to have caused by.

[R.W.Dale]

Posted by: rem700-3

There is no point to this argument, if you really think that any animal can function after being shot with a 22 caliber centerfire bullet in a vital organ, you are very wrong.

I agree with you completely except for this statement which I feel is incorrect and doesn't serve our side of this discussion. Look at the above picture of the bullet hole going into my buck's ribcage. Note it's a heck of a lot larger than 22 cal. In the past 15yrs bullet development has transformed the 22centerfire into something it never could have been previously. Bullets like the TBBC and TSX are expanding as large as .40" and are penetrating 17"+ of ballistics gel. To put that in perspective that's about what 30-30 can do in ballistics gel

what I would say would be

There is no point to this argument, if you really think that any animal can function after being shot with an expanded to over .30cal 22 caliber centerfire bullet that's churned up and shredded a vital organ, you are very wrong.

Let me relate a little experieince that my old friend the gamekeeper had a couple of years ago. ............Now either it was a FMJ or a bad bullet...............Due to the infection and the maggots it was impossible to say what calibre the injury was likely to have caused by.

Without having any evidence to tie you anecdote to this discussion it's presentation is only so much pontification. How do you know the deer in question wasn't shot with any other centerfire at long range or even a rimfire? A 50ish grain .224" controlled expansion bullet going through a lung at well north of 2500fps "doesn't put a hole" in the organ. but rather it shreds it and darn near turns it inside out.


Ive said this once and I'll say this again the whole anti .224" argument can be summed up with this one talking point/idea.

You should shoot something bigger so you can get away with more of a gutshot and have better luck with your potshots

[JASmith]

None of us dispute the fact that the .233 can and will take deer -- especially in the hands of an experienced and careful hunter.  Brithunter is correct in pointing out that the larger calibers, in moderation, make a huge difference in margin when the shots aren't perfect.  I also do not advocate intentionally taking marginal quartering shots, much less gut shots but they do happen in spite of best intentions.

I will also say again that the folks extolling the virtues of the .223 for deer  are either in the experienced or careful category and forgetting that not everyone is experienced and careful, or they don't know what they're talking about. 

[R.W.Dale]

I will also say again that the folks extolling the virtues of the .223 for deer  are either in the experienced or careful category and forgetting that not everyone is experienced and careful, or they don't know what they're talking about.

that's fine but this shoe indeed fits on both sides of this discussion

that folks deriding the use if .223 on appropriately sized whitetail  either have no direct experience with its use on this animal or if they do have experience is was coupled with poor shot placment and or bullet selection skills.

[JASmith]

Fair enough!

Let's use this discussion to help educate folks on how, when, and with what to take shots at animals of specified sizes.  This will help the  sport (as opposed subsistence meat hunting) in many ways.

[John R.]

My daughter killed her first deer with a 223. She made a good shot and the deer only went 50 yds. Does that mean she will forever hunt with a 223, not hardly. As she gets bigger she will move up in caliber. The 223 will kill deer, no doubt about it, but it's definitly not my first choice in a deer rifle. It seems there is one crowd that wants to see how small a caliber they can get away with, and one crowd that thinks you need a super ultra magnum to kill deer. I would venture to say that most people would be best served, somewhere in the middle. JMTCW.

[rem700-3]

This doe thought a 223 was a great choice, dropped in her tracks 118 yards. And by the way the very experianced 3yo ( at the time 4 now) did this

[rem700-3]

This pig was very impressed with the 55 gr sxsp of the evening at 135 yards

[rem700-3]

this young buck also dropped in his tracks 75 yards quartering away rib shot, as you can see not many posters on here are mature enough to match his skill and experiance!