Charging a black powder cartridge

[Old Sparky]

Howdy all I am getting my equiptment together to load some 45-70 I have no experiance. From the things I read some are of the openion charge weight is not critical. Loading smokless rifle I have always weighed every powder charge I throw from a powder measure. I am confused how to charge a black powder cartridge do I dip and weigh a charge, or do I buy a black powder measure and how is it set if not by checking the charge weight with a scale just by going with the graduations. I am going out today to try to find some equiptment and books but would welcome any replys.
thanks, Sparky

[nohorse]

I weigh each charge to the nearest grain.

[Lone Star]

Also, make certain that the charge is compressed either by the bullet or by wads and bullet together.  Otherwise, ignition and burning will not be optimum....    

[sharps4590]

First you'll need to determine how much powder capacity you have and that will be determined by the length of the bullet you use and your rifles throat plus approximately 1/8 in. compression as stated by Lone Star.   Once that is known you'll have your charge weight.  I have always thrown a slightly less charge with the powder measure then trickled powder in to come up to the exact weight, just as is done in smokeless.  I don't believe it's necessary to be that exact with black powder but old habits die hard.....and it's difficult to argue with the results.  Basically what nohorse said.

Vic

[Old Sparky]

Well. I don't find any black powder componets around town. So I ordered a 457132 lyman mold, some rcbs dies, brass, a montana compression die and a lyman 55 measure. Now I have to wait tell it all gets here. And read all I can.
thanks, Sparky

[Cottonwood]

Also, make certain that the charge is compressed either by the bullet or by wads and bullet together.  Otherwise, ignition and burning will not be optimum....    

Ah WRONG

You do NOT compress your BP loads with the bullet.  If you do this you can distort the form of the bullet.

If you want to learn a step by step procedure on loading for black powder cartridge Introduction to Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Loading or get a copy of SPG Black Powder Reloading Primer

I would highly recommend getting a powder compression die from Buffalo Arms

The key to good loads is consistency and with a powder compression die this is the only way to do it, so your bullet is seated correctly each and every time.  On my web-site I have many links to assist you if need be.

But please do not compress your powder loads with your bullets, you will find more frustration than shots fired, from cartridges that will not chamber all the way etc.  Read documented published data, and all that you can instead of taking someone elses word on these forum boards.

JMHO... your milage may vary  

[Old Sparky]

Thanks for the advice Montanan. I have been reading published loading data and asking all the questions I can. I also ordered a compression die when I ordered my loading die and bullet mold. I have been wanting to try this stuff out for a long while now I just finally got the nerve to spend the money to order a 1885 Browning bpcr. I plan to go watch a bpcr match tomorrow and ask all the questions I can. I am like a kid waiting for Christmas. I am wondering about a punch for wads. I have a 7/16 punch for leather work it comes out to .4375 is that close enough to bullet dia. for a wad or should I spring for a punch.
thanks, Sparky

[Cottonwood]

I don't punch my own wads any more... I just order the .060" vegi fiber wads by the 1,000  These can be ordered thru Buffalo Arms, but if you want to punch your own... go for it  :lol:

Again, I like consistancy and wads are no differant, unless your material wether it be poly or some fiber wad is ALL the same.  Work with the same bullet in all your loadings so that your consistant in getting your loads down.

If you do try differant bullets that have differant lengths of driving bands, is to take and cut a wooden dowl that just fits the inside of the case.  Mark it and then cut so it is the same exact depth as the inside of your case.  Then line it up with the driving bands of your bullet.....

Now you may have to find out where your bullet needs to be seated out to before you score the dowling.  Once you find where your bullet needs to be, place a veg wad under your bullet, then score the dowling and cut.

Now set your cut dowling into your case, place your case in your case holder of your RCBS press.  Set your compression die into the die and leave loose until you run your case up into the die.  Now you can adjust your compression depth for your powder.

Since I use several differant bullets with my 45-90 I have different powder compression settings, and this works for me.  The most important thing is that your getting consistant compression with your loadings.

You have purchased a very fine rifle there for BPCR, they are great accurate shooters right out of the box.  I once picked up a new Browning BPCR in 45-90 for a freind, and it was like wow, very nice and accurate.

Another thing you will learn is that differant black powders work differantly on compression... Goex loves to be compressed others don't like alot of compression.  If you desire to purchase BP in bulk or by the can and need a good source Powder Inc are by far cheaper than anyone around for BP purchases.

Other BP forum boards are:

MSN BPCR Board
Shiloh Rifle Forum
Goex Black Powder Forum

You will get some good scoop stuff on these boards.  You don't have to be a Shiloh Sharps owner to post on Shiloh Forum either.  Good experienced BPCR shooters love the questions from someone just beginning, and will not steer you wrong.

I can only add Welcome to the wonderful world of BPCR it is very addicting and there is no cure for it, other than to do more shooting and reloading.

The grin factor just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

[Ray Newman]

Ol’ Sparky: I did some looking & found a load for the .45-2.1” over on the GOEX board..

“As for a load, HEED the advice from the Rdnck:
“.45-2.1’ (AKA .45-70) BP load:

“This is EXACTLY the way I load my match ammo, no BS. It shoots in every 45-70 I own--3 Shilohs, 2 Pedersolis, and an old roller with a 1-22 twist barrel.

“Remington cases, flash holes drilled to 3/32 inch. Cases are weighed and segregated into light, medium, and heavy lots. They are full length sized and neck expanded after every firing and are primed with standard, not magnum Winchester Large Rifle primers. I use standard Lyman dies. The expander plug sizes the inside of the case mouth to .456.

“Powder is weighed on a RCBS 1010 scale. 70 grains of Goex 2f by weight, dropped through a 24 inch drop tube. The powder settles about .230 or so from the top of the case mouth. It is then compressed with a compression die so that it measures .600 from the top of the powder to the top of the case mouth. The amount of compression on the powder runs somewhere around .370 to .380. After the powder is compressed, a wad cut from ordinary wax paper is placed in the case mouth and pushed down on top of the powder with a wooden dowel on top of the powder.

“When the cases are neck expanded, they have enough flare at the mouth so that the bullet will go into the case the depth of the first driving band. It is very important to not shave lead from the bullet when it is seated.

“The bullet is a 457132 Lyman Postell, cast 30-1, sized to .458 and lubed with Black Magic lube. It is seated so that the top of the case mouth comes to the bottom of the top driving band, covering all the grease grooves. The seating die is adjusted so that all the flare is removed from the mouth of the case, but there is no crimp. The outside diameter of the loaded cartridge case at the case mouth is .478. This is necessary to insure that they will chamber freely in the Shilohs.

“Bullets are weighed to +or - two tenths of a grain, and are ladle poured at 820 degrees out of a pot that holds 60 pounds of lead. A Wal-Mart fish cooker is the heat source.

“I might add that clean cases , especially the necks are important to achieving low extreme spreads and sd numbers. We use a Thumbler's Tumbler and ceramic media you can get from Harlan Sage at Sagebrush products. You won't believe how well one of these things works. Hope this helps. Shoot straight, rdnck. “

Rdnck’s wife just won the ladies Creedmoor match @ Rayton, so he does know what he’s talking about. He  also does load development & testing for GOEX,

http://goexpowder.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=492

Compression + powder charge + cartridge OAL are variables that a Shooters needs to adjust in order to obtain gilt-edge accuracy form his/her rifle. The rifle will soon tell the Shooter if he is on the right road by the size of the groups.

Also log on @:

reloading manual”

http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.pdf

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/

Read the info found under “ammunition”, ‘tips, strategies”, etc.

Casting manual:

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm

(I believe I posted the above links when you asked about bullet moulds.)

Some other useful BPCR boards are:

Shilo-Sharps:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php

(The Shiloh board has had numerous threads for helping out new BOCR Shooters w/ loading & casting.)

GOEX powder:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php

http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/messages.msnw

[Old Sparky]

Wow, thanks for the links to look at I have looked at them briefly and will look at them with detail.  I have another question I am pondering. I have a star sizer and I shoot a bunch of cowboy stuff and intend on continuing. I figured I would pan lube the 457132 bullets with SPG lube that is what I have ordered. My question is it sure would be easy to lube using the star sizer has anyone tried these softer black powder lubes using smokeless powder at around 850 fps in pistol calibers.
thanks, Sparky

[Ray Newman]

I 'dunno' 'bout them Star lubrisizers.

But if you plan to pan lube your bullets w/ SPG, be sure to use a double boiler. Otherwise, you'll heat the lube to quickly & ruin its properties.

[cooper]

Sparky - a couple of comments.

Regarding powder compression, you can compress with the bullet in one situation:  if you're only compressing about 1/8" or less.  With that little compression, you won't distort the bullet, especially with a hard alloy, 1:20 or 1:25 or so.    

Usually, you'll want to compress Goex more than 1/8", so you will need a compression die.  But for Swiss, which usually likes very little compression, compressing with the bullet works fine for me, and it saves one reloading step.

Second, I would advise NOT drilling out your primer flash holes to 3/32".  At least not at first.  I don't believe it helps anything.

And finally, if you are going to punch out your own wads (I do) don't use that hammer-style punch.   It's noisy, and a real PITA if you're making a lot of wads.  Put out the $50 and get a good press-mounted punch from.....I forget the name of the guy who makes it, but Buffalo Arms carries it.

[sharps4590]

Hey Sparky..

In response to your question regarding using SPG in cowboy calibers at your stated velocity, yes, I have.  Accuracy has been more than acceptable and I've experienced little or no leading.   I can't recommend driving the bullets any faster than around the 850 mark you mentioned.  I did get leading in a 44 Spl. at about 1000 fps using SPG.  

As another remedy for sizing bullets I watched at gun shows and picked up an old Lyman sizer for $30.00.  It was tight and had a couple dies with it.  Now I use the Lyman for smokeless lube and the my RCBS for SPG.  For me it was worth the $30.00 investment.

Vic

[Old Sparky]

Cooper thanks for the response. I figured I would give the SPG a try in the 45 colts and schofields but am glad to hear you have tried it and it works out. The only thing I see that may be a factor is the price of the SPG and I shoot lots of 45 Oh well I guess I cant have everything my way.
thanks Sparky

[Dusty Ed]

Howdy Sparky
I used SPG On everything I reload which is numerous.
Now I use Paul Matthews lube which I make myself and I just made a Pound of Dan Theodore's lube I only tried it in a 40-65 lever action Marlin both smokeless and Black.
AS far as velocity i've shot my 38-56 1886 Win. at 1750fps no leading.
I also use the Star Lubrasizer.
Dusty Ed :wink:

[ShortStake]

Hmmmmmmm?


Where does one find the formula for Dan Theodore's lube?

[Ray Newman]

DustyEd: did you make up a lb. of Dan Theodore's "White Lightning Lube" or something else?

If it is the “White Lightning”, would you let us know the details?

From what I’ve read, the only way to obtain “White Lightning” was directly from Dan T.

[quigleysharps4570]

Ever get going on those cartridges Old Sparky?

[Dusty Ed]

Howdy Ray
No it's not White Lighting it is another lube he used to use.
It is bee's wax, lanolin + lube guard
You can find it on the BPCR website under lubes.
Dusty Ed :wink: