Cindy Sheehan

[Sheila]

I think she's a Jane Fonda wannabe.

[jh45gun]

Yep I agree

[fe352v8]

Viet Nam left Jane with only bad press

Iraq left Cindy Sheehan with a dead son

Sheehan had a personal stake unlike Fonda.  

Considering every reason given for Iraq, has so far remained unproven, maybe it is time to require someone to be accountable, before more of our children come home in boxes.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[magooch]

The great, gallant men and women fighting for us in Iraq and Afghanistan are not children!  Furthermore, most of them believe in what they are doing, as do I.

That disgraceful woman who's been squatting in the ditch outside the Presidents ranch has sullied the name of her fallen son.

[jh45gun]

Viet Nam left Jane with only bad press

Iraq left Cindy Sheehan with a dead son

Sheehan had a personal stake unlike Fonda.  

Considering every reason given for Iraq, has so far remained unproven, maybe it is time to require someone to be accountable, before more of our children come home in boxes.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Typical bullcrap from a liberal~ Hey wake up there is no draft he joined of his own free will. Soldiers fight and some times they die it is in the job description. If he was one of those kids that signed up on the dotted line to go to school too bad Uncle Sam called in the Chips. It does not matter wether you think the war is right, wrong, or indifferent he was a soldier and he joined of his own free will. If you think you can join and never have to fight or take the risk of dieing well that does not always happen. Go light a candle with the rest of the protesting pukes.  :x

[Leverdude]

So, what are they (we) doing? I believe our young people in the military are the best in the world bar none. I think they are dedicated to duty & deserve the utmost respect.
I also believe they do as ordered & that weather or not what they do is the right thing isn't important from their perspective.
Its the American political machine at work here folks. This has gone way beyond protecting America. Shouldnt suprise anyone tho as thats how we operate lately.

We all piss & moan when the Gov here suppresses everyone so someone might not be able to commit a crime, as in gun control, but alot of those same people find it acceptable to occupy a forien country because some people there might want to do us harm. Hypocritical if you ask me.

This womans opinion means as much as anyone elses & she lost more than most of us.

We've allowed ourselves to become dependant on forien energy & its only getting worse with the diminishing manufacturing here & greater dependence on importation. We allow ourselves to be held hostage by forien nations in this way & it cant in my opinion be good for America. Unless you support globalization.

We should kill Saddam & make them air his decapitation on Al Jezeera, then blow up the broadcasting facility & come home. Mission accomplished.
Or just move the troops to Pakistan & Afganistan to find Bin Laden. He is the bad guy remember?


Jim,

I agree with you 100% that if someone joins the military they have no complaint if we go to war & they are called on, regardless of if they joined for an education. Thing is IMO we arent fighting in defence of America anymore but rather in defence of Iraq. I doubt anyone who enlisted thought there were sighning up for a mercinary force.
 The war is over, so sayeth the President. We have no obligation to make Iraq safe for Iraqis. These people, to quote PM are 'Godless subhumans". So why waste our resources on them?

[fe352v8]

Where did the men and women in the military come from?

Every man or woman is someoneÂ’s, son or daughter.

My stepson is a man, and a Marine, and no matter how old he is he will be my child.  He has been deployed once to Iraq, and is preparing for another.

He does not like war, any more than I did, or his grandfather did, or his great-grandfather did, and he complains, but like we all did before him, he will do his duties to the best of his abilities.

What is disgraceful is the Commander in Chief, daring someone to “bring it on”, well they did, and since that show of “chicken-hawk” of bravado around 1500 of our troops have died.

Not a single reason, for going to war, given by, then Secretary of State Powell, at the UN, has proven to be true, aside from Saddam being an SOB.  If my child were to die because of misinformation, or what is beginning to appear to be disinformation, I might be inclined to express my dissatisfaction with the government.

Especially since no senior members of this administration ever found it necessary to serve, nor have their children, in fact only one member of congress has had a child deployed to Iraq.

No doubt Cindy Sheehan will be and is being used and manipulated by those with other agendas, but her actions have not contributed to some other motherÂ’s child coming home in a box.  The “chicken-hawks” in this administration however have contributed greatly to the body count

A limited conflict, like Iraq, means only being limited to the confines of the theater of operation, within that theater of operation you wage war, otherwise the conflict is only prolonged and you incur unnecessary casualties.  That is not liberal BS, it is, “ratio of forces”, a tested, well proven military doctrine, taught at Annapolis, West Point, as well as the, National, Army, Air Force, Navel, and Marine, War Colleges, which are hardly bastions of liberal BS.  

The failure of this administration, to prosecute this war with adequate resources has resulted in the deaths and wounding of soldiers that might, well have been, otherwise avoided.  As the mother of one of those dead soldiers Cindy Sheehan has more of a right than most, to ask why.

If this administration does not address their initial misconceptions and assumptions, in other words “staying the course”, regarding Iraq quickly, I am afraid that the end results will be far from what was expected or hoped for.  I can think of nothing more dishonoring to the men and women, our children, who are fighting, dying, and being wounded, then for Iraq not becoming a stable democracy, and at present “staying the course” does not appear to be headed in that direction..

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[jhm]

Jon:  I would be willing to bet that if cindy was to recieve a phone call and told OK you can have your meeting with the President in 5 min time it wouldnt happen because she wouldnt have enough time to round up a camera crew and her political coaches to advise her, I feel bad she lost a son and I feel bad all the other parents lost a child, but she doesnt deserve anything over them, as far as miss-information we dont know for sure what the leaders know, some things are ment to be kept away from some people as they dont know how to keep their mounth SHUT when it is about the enemy, if you dont believe we are dealing with an enemy go over their and try on a towel.  JIM

[fe352v8]

I did not say she deserved anything more than anyone else; we the people are entitled to an explanation.  The lack of candor from our leadership and their lack of openness on most topics let alone Iraq is not something that many should find comforting, especially if the life of their son or daughter is at risk, unless of course you believe ignorance is bliss.

I respect the needs of security, that tactical and strategic planning and operations require.  However it appears you are suggesting that our strategy, in Iraq, is a form of international “Rope-a-Dope”, that the administrationÂ’s reliance upon what has proven to be poor intelligence, before the war, and the apparent misassumptions since liberation / occupation are part of some masterful and deliberate ruse, so as not expose our true intelligence gathering capabilities and military capabilities, and that the Commander In Chiefs statements are part of this elaborate ruse.

ThatÂ’s quite a plan; we fooled our enemy into thing that our intelligence operation was incompetent, and then by having some 1600 plus of our troops killed piece meal, for over a year, our enemy, and potential enemies will remain unaware of our true military and intelligence capabilities.  What a strategic masterpiece.  Right up there with Hannibal and Caesar, no doubt it will be studied for years to come.  What shall we call this brilliant stratagem; The Dubba Duh?

However I do not see how claiming Saddam:

Had WMVs, but we can not find them
Was involved in 9/11, but we can not find a link
Was trying to get WMDs, but we can not document it

Or

How after overthrowing a disgusting regime like SaddamÂ’s, in a couple of weeks with less than 200 killed, and then after the liberation suffering an additional 1600 plus killed, is a particularly good way of deceiving our enemies, and lulling them into a false sense of security.

But, If you really think itÂ’s a good plan, then grab the kids or grand kids and head on down to the recruiting center, I am sure the Bushs, Cheneys, Rumsfelds, DeLays, Frists, Perles, Wolfowitzs, and all the other war heroes will let you cut in line, ahead of them and theirs.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[powderman]

She's already had a meeting with president Bush. All was well til the left wing pukes got ahold of her. She now shames and disgraces every man and woman who is fighting, or has died in the service of our nation.
I guess, BRING IT ON, is the reson these Godless SOBS are fighting??? Huhhhhhh? What utter horsecrap. Get real.  POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[IntrepidWizard]

Fe,go back to Moveon .org,everything you have said has been reputiated in past post and without further adueWE ARE IN THE RIGHT WAR,IN THE RIGHT PLACE ,AGAINST THE RIGHT PEOPLE FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.PERIOD  AND IF YOU LEFTY'S COULD READ AND GO BACK TO YOUR BUDDY CLINTON AND THE UN AND READ YOU WOULD KNOW THE TRUTH,but alas you are a waste of time.

[fe352v8]

Yes letÂ’s get real.  

Why are more troops being killed after the liberation of Iraq then in the taking of Iraq?

Why is the rate at which we are sustaining casualties increasing?

Why have we not altered tactics or strategy, to counter act this, or if we have what is it?

How did KerryÂ’s speeches in 1971 cause an increase in deaths to US service personnel?

Fact 1971 was third lowest year for US casualties during our “officially active involvement” and 1972 was the second lowest.

How did JaneÂ’s trip to Hanoi in 1972 cause an increase in deaths to US service personnel?

Fact the US signed the Paris Peace Accords in January 1973, the lowest year for US casualties, and agreed to complete withdrawal by March 29, 1973, after which were left 8500 US civilian technicians and the Marine embassy guards.

“WE ARE IN THE RIGHT WAR,IN THE RIGHT PLACE ,AGAINST THE RIGHT PEOPLE FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.PERIOD”

A true Bush sentiment, but you forgot the reality for Bush, as long as he nor his children nor his friends nor their children have to fight it, and that is the definition of a “Chicken-Hawk”.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[IntrepidWizard]

You ask a Liberal the time and they will answer with the parts that make up the clock and never the time ,you ask a Conservative the time and you will get a accurate ,prompt answer and if asked how to make a clock he will tell you.

[fe352v8]

I am beginning to understand this “stay the course” thing.

You made the same exact post on 11 August; it was not relevant in that thread either.  I guess thatÂ’s what “staying the course” is all about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.  Well “stay the course” and when you get a different outcome we will all be witness to a miracle.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[jh45gun]

Yes letÂ’s get real.  

Why are more troops being killed after the liberation of Iraq then in the taking of Iraq?

Why is the rate at which we are sustaining casualties increasing?

Why have we not altered tactics or strategy, to counter act this, or if we have what is it?

How did KerryÂ’s speeches in 1971 cause an increase in deaths to US service personnel?

Fact 1971 was third lowest year for US casualties during our “officially active involvement” and 1972 was the second lowest.

How did JaneÂ’s trip to Hanoi in 1972 cause an increase in deaths to US service personnel?

Fact the US signed the Paris Peace Accords in January 1973, the lowest year for US casualties, and agreed to complete withdrawal by March 29, 1973, after which were left 8500 US civilian technicians and the Marine embassy guards.

“WE ARE IN THE RIGHT WAR,IN THE RIGHT PLACE ,AGAINST THE RIGHT PEOPLE FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.PERIOD”

A true Bush sentiment, but you forgot the reality for Bush, as long as he nor his children nor his friends nor their children have to fight it, and that is the definition of a “Chicken-Hawk”.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[powderman]

fe. General giap said in his book that they were a beaten army and were on the verge of quitting the fight til the dynamic duo got even more involved in their anti American activities. They convinced him that Americans were weak and didn't have the heart to fight. They gave our enemy the hope and resolve to fight on, killing and maiming even more Americans. They were traitors then, and now, and the worst thing is that you probably voted for the traitorous SOB. Read giaps  book, they are heros to him. The war was lengthened by years thanks to them. The blood of thousands of Americans is on their hands. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[Mike357mag]

Tokyo rose(Iva Toguri D'Aquino)  did proganda broad cast for japan in world war II and received a 10 year sentence for it.  Why wasn't kerry and jane locked up for the same thing.  The rich and famous get away with too much.  Its a crying shame they did not get napalmed while in vietnam.

As for the casualties after their propaganda you must look at the number of troops in vietnam.
1967 463,000
Nov 1970 334,600
DEC 1970 280,000
DEC 1971 156,800  
With less troops of course there will be fewer casualties.  

Bottom line they are both guilty of war crimes.  Where is a firing squad when you need one.

[Leverdude]

So, Who's hands are carrying the blood of our men & women killed since Bush announced the war was won? We drag this thing out long enough & our victory becomes hollow. The only reason we're still there is public relations. A damn poor reason to get men killed IMHO.

[Mike357mag]

If we leave now another dictator would take control now that would be a hollow victory.  The war is over was a taken out of text that was referenced to the end of sadam.  What kind of respectable leader would leave now.  Did we leave europe as soon as hitler was removed, no we helped rebuild.  This time it is more than just rebuild material.  They do not have a strong government, to leave now would be making everything so far achieved wasted.  I guess this is what you would leave in charge of a country.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/13/iraq.graves/index.html

Mike H

[powderman]

I'm tired of hearing about president Bush's war. It's OUR war, not his. it was started by a bunch of Godless, subhuman, SOBS. Like it or not we ARE in a war, it's islam against the rest of the world. If we don't fight them now, we most assuredly will later, at a day and time of THEIR choosing. I'm thankful  to have a president that will stand up to satans disciples, yes, satans disciples, thats what they are. If gore were in office, we'd be in a real world of hurt. He'd still be appologizing to the Godless ones for building the twin towers in the way of their stolen planes. POWDERMAN.  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:

[fe352v8]

The rules of engagement for “Operation Rolling Thunder”, with itsÂ’ numerous bombing halts, which ran from 3/2/65 through 10/31/68, did far more to prolong the war, by limiting our strategic advantages, and forcing us to fight reactively instead of proactively.  Coupled with the decision of limiting ground force deployment south of the DMZ, only further guaranteed a prolonged war of attrition, which always favors the indigenous force.

Some of “Rolling Thunders” rules of engagement:

Bombing was prohibited within 25 miles (40 km) of the Chinese border, within 10 miles (16 km) of Hanoi (the capital) and within 4 miles (6.4 km) of Haiphong (the major port.) By placing the capital, Haiphong and surrounding areas off limits the U.S. Air Force was prevented from attacking nearly all military targets crucial to the war effort of the enemy. Additionally, much to the annoyance of Air Force generals, no enemy air bases could be attacked for fear of killing Soviet technicians. During the early part of Rolling Thunder even the deadly surface to air missile (SAM) sites could not be attacked until they were fully operational (firing SA-2 missiles at U.S. planes!)

Contrast the above, with what happened when we began really bombing the North, in “Operation Linebacker II)..

“Operation Linebacker II” began on 12/18/72, and ended on 12/29/72.  In those 12 days US bombing resulted in, 1600 military structures being destroyed, along with 3 million gallons of petroleum, and the knocking out of 80% of the NorthÂ’s electrical capacity.   On 12/26/72, in the span of 15 minutes, the NorthÂ’s air defense systems around Hanoi and Haiphong were almost completely destroyed.  In a matter of days we have a cease-fire, and 3 weeks later a peace treaty.

Amazing what happens, when you take advantage of your strategic and tactical advantages and wage war on your terms instead of your enemies.

So if you wish to credit the “dynamic duo”, for the loss of US lives in Viet Nam, go ahead, but the fact is decisions in Washington led to exponential greater losses than either KerryÂ’s or FondaÂ’s actions ever did or could have.  While the “peace movement” may be demoralizing, the fact is, that once again, we are seeing that decisions made in Washington not to take advantage of our strategic and tactical superiority have lead to and will continue to lead to the loss of American lives.

I have no idea what most Americans think war is, for the soldier on the ground it is not very complicated; you engage the enemy, close with the enemy, and destroy the enemy and his ability or desire to wage war.  American soldiers have been, and are still willing and able to do this, they deserve not to be placed at greater risk while doing this, because of decisions made by the civilian leadership, based on concerns other than the military situation, that result in restricting the tactics, doctrines, and resources that can are to be deployed and thereby exposes them to greater danger..

It is becoming painfully obvious that the invasion and the over throw of Saddam, was the “softening-up”, the prelude to what has become the real war, the war against the insurgent resistance, and the way the President is conducting it, is eerily familiar.  If we came away from Viet Nam, learning only one lesson, it should have been, if your going to fight, fight to win.

Unfortunately, the inability for some, both liberal and conservative, to overcome their ideological rigidity will result, not in Iraq becoming a stable democracy, but as the reason for another memorial with too many names on it.  Screw our ideologies, either do what it takes to get it done with minimum casualties or get the hell out.  Â“Staying the course” is not getting it done.  

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[Leverdude]

So we spend billions & countless lives helping the "Godless scum"  :roll:
It doesn't matter when we leave, once we're gone it will return to what it was & is still surrounded by. Unless of course we just stay indefinately. Then it will look peaceful, maybe. If you count peace as supressing the natural tendencies of those involved & attracting every islamic lunitic in the region to Iraq.

I never called it Bushes war, it is definately ours. I supported it & We payed for it but its over. The only war we are involved in now is on terror, global terrorism to be exact & those guys arent in Iraq. They are in Pakistan & Afganistan & come there from Saudi Arabia mostly (Our buddies :roll: ) So I guess we are helping the Iraqi people by attracting them.

Some of you seem confused as well. Iraq didn't do squat to the WTC. That was the Saudi's if you need to pick a nation to blame the blame lies squarely on them.

Our President isn't standing up to the evil anymore. He did & he won, now he's playing politician trying to justify our actions by helping the poor underprivilaged Iraqis that dont have the balls to do what needs doing, or maybe they like it the way it was. I dont know or care they mean nothing to me.

Comparing this to Germany is rediculous. Germany was & is an industrialized nation that made a mistake big time. They are also surrounded by countries which generally speaking arent ignorant backwards camel riding fuzznuts without a clue. We rebuilt Germany, we are building Iraq not rebuilding. Germany was & is basically part of our culture, Iraq is about as culturally different from us as martians might be.

I wonder why it bothers everyone who hears of the mass graves so much. From alot of the comments here one would think that ridding the world of these people would be a good thing. I guess its only ok if we kill em all.
I'd vote for letting them kill themselves, but in reality its not my concern & I couldnt care less how many of these sociopaths kill each other. What I do care about are MY fellow American people & that includes everyone serving in our military. That they need to die because our country doesnt know when to pull out is a crime in itself. That our economy is going to suffer big time over this concerns me as well.  That it will net zero return to us also concerns me. We help all these idiot camel jockeys any way we can, financially, militarilly, humanitarilly & technologically & need to buy the oil they get because of us at the price they dictate.
Not for nothing but from an impartial viewpoint we look like idiots.

Democracy worked here because the PEOPLE wanted it & the PEOPLE faught a war to secure it. We beat the biggest superpower in the world at that time in order to do so.
I think it should be easier for the Iraqi people to free themselves than it was for us. If they want it & if they dont then we are wasting our time.

[pffft]

Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink.
And there is little question why liberals have a jackass as a mascot.
Here's an example of what happens when liberals are in charge.

[Mikey]

She needs grief counseling.  Yes she lost her son, but he was a man and volunteered for his duty, more than once.  She sullies his sacrifice.  This is the price of freedom - she fails to see how that allows her own actions.  She will never see the truth.

[fe352v8]

I like the cartoon.

The first OSHA bill was co-sponsored by both Republicans and Democrats in both the House and Senate and signed by Nixon.  Perhaps this is what happens when politicians are in charge.


And why do Republicans use an elephant as their partyÂ’s symbol?


Could it be as Adlai Stevenson observed?  

 "The elephant has a thick skin, a head full of ivory, and as everyone who has seen a circus parade knows, proceeds best by grasping the tail of its predecessor."

One might also add, there is of course the mess left to cleanup after the parade has passed.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[Leverdude]

She needs grief counseling.  Yes she lost her son, but he was a man and volunteered for his duty, more than once.  She sullies his sacrifice.  This is the price of freedom - she fails to see how that allows her own actions.  She will never see the truth.

I agree with you on that statement.  While I'm not real happy with the direction this thing is going I cant really condone her behaviour. She does make a mockery of his sacrifice & will never see the truth without help. The enemy killed him plain & simple. Why he was there or weather that was right or wrong doesn't matter, what matters is that he gave his life serving our country honourably. Thats how he should be remembered & its sad she would want to sully that.
But, wether or not she realizes it she does have the freedoms he died for, so if she chooses to act like an idiot theres not much anyone can do. Like as not she was born an idiot & couldnt stop if she wanted to.

[Nightrain52]

The man voluntered to serve the military to protect his country and to follow orders. He was doing his job to the best of his ability. I salute this young man for his service to his country but the fact remains, war is a serious business and this man paid with the ultimate sacrifice, his life. Dead is dead. No amount of mourning will ever breathe new life into this person. His mother and the news media are playing with peoples emotions and nothing else. I know this may sound callous but the news people prey on these stories and blow everything out of proportion. Does this make every other man and women that have lost there life in war less important? This is just another way the news media manipulates politics of this nation. I feel sorry this lady lost her son but nothing can be done to bring him back. She needs to let go and seek closure and quit making this a circus. :cry:

[Datil]

Night Train 52,
   
 I agree with you on this subject.   Marv.

[Leverdude]

Now that makes sense & is probly whats going on. Dont know where it'll head but it explains our reluctence to leave.

[IntrepidWizard]

7,read the Fair Tax Book by Boortz and Linder and get back to us.