Author Topic: POA: Center-of-Mass or Heads? (Read 1164 times)

MikeP · « **on:** August 21, 2005, 02:20:38 AM »

From the news yesterday:

A perp who is suspected of murdering his pregnant girlfriend is arrested after he visited her hidden grave in a weedfilled lot. He was wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying a .45 when arrested. Fortunately, he was arrested without gunfire.

From the news some time ago:

A licensed armed citizen shoots a gunman who is killing innocent people. The gunman is hit several times in the chest, but shoots and kills the armed citizen. The gunman is protected by a bulletproof vest.

Question: Is the center-of-mass shot still recommended as the first choice when defending yourself, or should you try for the head?

I think some police departments may be training to shoot two in the chest and one in the head, hoping, of course, there is enough time and presence of mind to do all that aiming and shooting.

TNrifleman · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2005, 02:45:23 AM »

The instances you cite are actually uncommon. Few criminals are wearing body armor. I have taught both police officers and private citizens the use of defensive handguns for many years. It makes good sense to aim for center mass of one must shoot. If that proves ineffective, then the head shot and / or the pelvic girdle shot may be in order.

Bubba w/a 45/70 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2005, 04:34:38 AM »

That "bullet proof" vest won't stop hand grenades.

:eek:

Seriously, the mindset that seems to be up and coming in the self defence area is one of "shooting the threat until it is down on the ground, not moving". Or something close to that. Just don't put bullets into the ground underneath the perp. :wink: Could have a few legal problems with that one later....

This was relayed to me by two different persons, one of which teaches weekly courses to police departments and private citizens. double tapping doesn't even come into play for the instructor, he says use as much as needed, don't stop at two.

WNY_Whitetailer · « **Reply #3 on:** August 21, 2005, 06:00:14 AM »

Quote from: TNrifleman

The instances you cite are actually uncommon. Few criminals are wearing body armor.

I agree with TNRifleman...I would still opt for the Center Mass shot when presented because it is a bigger target than the head and requires less effort to aim.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2005, 06:53:25 AM »

Center mass, not very many people have body armor.

rockbilly · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2005, 07:33:59 AM »

:shock: One never knows how they will react until confronted with a "must shoot" situation. You may fine it hard to focus on a head shot, most likely your hands will be shaking to the point that you can't hold a bead on the head. Go for the center mass shot first, you are more likely to make a hit. I really don't think you will encounter that many people wearing a bulletproof vest, but if you shoot and they don't stop, then go for the groin area, or the head, which ever presents the best target.

Be ready for whatever trouble you may face, but pray you never have to pull your gun. The problems really start after the first shot is fired.

DEPUTY · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2005, 02:40:30 PM »

That is a reason to practice a failure drill as well! 2-com/1 head

many time an edp wont even show the effect of 3 well placed com hits! seen this one first hand!

not many have or wear body armor i have arrested guys wearing yellow pages duct taped to there chest.

the pelvic griddle has been proven to be somewhat innefctive at times.

head shots are also a questionable as well. here in motown i have seen several subjects who have been head shot! problem is they werent brain box shot!

the area to tqarget is the same as a sniper would the area around the eyes, nose it is softer and there is less chance of delfection off the skull plate.

powhs · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2005, 04:18:28 PM »

Every situation will be different. I know of two local officers who had one shot stops with there .38's.
One perp was shot in the foot while charging a cop.
The other was shot in the hand while rasing his knife to stab his wife.
Both officers stated they were aiming for center mass.

muzzleblast525 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2005, 04:27:25 PM »

Pretty well have to go with all that was said. Practice, practice, practice.....That is one thing you should do, so that before long, you don't have to think about the shot, just do it.....Got into a situation years ago where had to make a shot on a "shoplifter turned robber" when he started dragging the store security guard with a car, and was about to run over him. The only thing I had time to do was draw from the hip and fire one round through the window and right into the head. It was enough to stop, and one thing I thought of afterwards was as soon as the threat was over, decocked and reholstered without ever thinking about it. I guess muscle memory kicked in on that one......

:devil2: :sniper:

texasdoc · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2005, 05:39:55 PM »

well I was trained to shoot 2 in the cheast and 1 in th ehead and it has a good plan and I hope I never have to use it.

doc

texasdoc · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2005, 05:42:42 PM »

well I was trained to shoot 2 in the chest and 1 in the head and it has a good plan and I hope I never have to use it.

Doc

Lawdog · « **Reply #11 on:** August 24, 2005, 01:27:15 PM »

When it comes down to you or the other person, your training is going to take over and you are going to be shooting to stop the other person. That's all, just stop them. Chances are you won't know exactly how many times you fired or exactly where you were aiming. So practice, practice, practice. Lawdog

rockbilly · « **Reply #12 on:** August 24, 2005, 03:52:17 PM »

I agree a center mass or head shot is best, but we all know some folks couldn't make a head shot even under ideal conditions. For this reason, I suggested the lower body (that was after shooting center mass and no results). There are several bleeders in the lower body, the hips and possibily the lower spine, any of which should stop or slow down a bad guy. I recommend this area simply because it is a larger target.

There is no such thing as a free lunch or an ideal situation for a gun fight.

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest. Illegal aliens are stealing from, not benefitting Americans.

JeffG · « **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2005, 05:57:05 PM »

The reasons most handguns are carried is not power, but portability/concealability. If you want to stop threatening behavior now, shoot the CNS; central nervous system. The brain or its immediate subsystems, the medulla omblagotta or the spinal cord from the clavical UP. And keep shooting until the threat is STOPPED> messy, but effective.....Just my personal experience.

rockbilly · « **Reply #14 on:** September 01, 2005, 05:49:57 AM »

JeffG, I agree with you. shooting for the CNS is the best choice. My response was to the question of someone that may be wearing a "bulletproof vest." If I put two-three rounds to center mass and it does stop the bad guy I would try a head shot if possible, but after observing many people who were qualifying for their CHL I found most couldn't hit the head on a target at 15 feet. They could keep enough rounds in the center mass area to qualify, so they are walking around out there with a fire arm. For these folks I recommend the groin, hips, upper leg area, especially if the person is moving. It provides a larger target and by shooting down hopefully they won't hit my wife in a vital area with a miss.

Simply stated, the differences in ability are so vast the same rules do not apply to all. I have the confidence in my ability to attempt a head shot but the average individual that posses a CHL does not have the experience or ability.

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a burglar an invited house guest. Illegal aliens are stealing from, not benefiting Americans. :evil: :twisted:

JeffG · « **Reply #15 on:** September 01, 2005, 06:08:15 PM »

Sorry if I came on heavy, we train CNS as primary. Any behavior after a bad guy exhibits after a primary Center Mass hit, could be our liability, not to mentions some innocent's disaster...

Dave in WV · « **Reply #16 on:** September 02, 2005, 06:49:05 AM »

JeffG, I was trained to shoot for the "T". The "T" is the eyes for the horizontal bar and from the top of nose down the neck for the vertical bar. Hit the "T" and it's over.

Nuttinbutchunks · « **Reply #17 on:** September 05, 2005, 02:49:29 PM »

My only concern with a head shot is what if I miss. Then the bullet goes who knows where. Unless it's extremely close.

JeffG · « **Reply #18 on:** September 06, 2005, 07:20:16 AM »

You should be precise in your hit probability with a handgun. Use small stickers as targets, and practice 1 shot drills from the holster, or low ready untill the 1st shot always hits the target. The center of mass does not "catch" rounds. The lungs, liver and digestive system are a poor bullet stoppers, and the handgun that is used for fighting will go though these anyway. The 1 shot brainpan hit is attempting to accomplish two things: stop deadly behavior now, and do it with as little danger to bystanders as possible, by minimizing expended rounds.

Nuttinbutchunks · « **Reply #19 on:** September 06, 2005, 04:38:07 PM »

>>Use small stickers as targets, and practice<<

That's what I plan on when my slide comes back from Springfield Armory. I sent it to them to install an adjustable sight. I should get it back Thursday.

S.S. · « **Reply #20 on:** September 25, 2005, 08:09:47 AM »

Our rangemaster always used to say
"Shoot em' where they look the biggest"
Meaning center body mass.

Buffalo_Hunter · « **Reply #21 on:** September 29, 2005, 10:37:07 PM »

I think we can debate where to shoot all day long,but in reality we can only practice to shoot where we would like to and when the stuff hits the fan,we will be lucky to do the job as quickly and effectively as we possibly can.I'll be aiming at the biggest target of opportunity I hope,and if at all possible would take out the brain and or central nervous system asap,but under mega stress would aim for the center mass.I would tend to think that the head bobbing and weaving might be tough to hit,but hopefully,I'll never have to find out.Shoot what you can hit.,as many times as possible until the threat does not exist any longer,then reload,from whatever you can hide behind.The number one rule is keep moving,take cover and take out the threat as soon as you can.

Nuttinbutchunks · « **Reply #22 on:** September 30, 2005, 04:55:50 PM »

I just finished a gun class and the instructor said under life threatening stress, your accuracy deminishes rapidly.

MikeP · « **Reply #23 on:** October 02, 2005, 03:48:16 AM »

No one can validly disagree that center of mass is the largest and easiest spot to hit.

The problem posed in the original question is, bulletproof vests. If you shoot at the center of mass and he does not fall, the inclination is to keep shooting there because you must be missing the right spot.

However, perhaps you are not missing your POA at all...perhaps it just will not work because he is wearing protection.

Personally, I will aim at center of mass because of the "largest probable target hit" factor. But the problem of bulletproof vests is vexing when you read the cases cited in the first post.

Nevertheless, like everything else, it is advisable to go with the best percentages you have working for you; ie, the higher number of likely hits by aiming for center of mass, and the lower number of hoods actually wearing bulletproof vests.

In any case, you have to have a little luck to survive.

myronman3 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 02, 2005, 04:11:59 AM »

here is the beautiful thing about recoil, your gun climbs. shoot center mass, if the target doesnt drop, your gun will be aimed at the head. steady it up and put one through the kisser before the bad guy recovers from the impact.

it is that easy.

gino · « **Reply #25 on:** October 02, 2005, 05:11:12 AM »

Quote from: myronman3

here is the beautiful thing about recoil, your gun climbs. shoot center mass, if the target doesnt drop, your gun will be aimed at the head. steady it up and put one through the kisser before the bad guy recovers from the impact.

it is that easy.

AKA "the zipper".
gino :grin: