Author Topic: Rem 209ML Primers Really Make a Difference? (Read 2453 times)

J.P. Harrington · « **on:** August 22, 2005, 05:27:36 PM »

Hello All,
First off, I'm a total know-nothing newbie -- but an enthusiastic one that wants to get better at this ML thing. Good thing that there are a lot of really smart, helpful folks here at this forum. Thanks.

After struggling with my new TC Omega all Summer, I have finally got something that resembles "grouping". Meaning that I'm getting close to sub-MOA at 100 yds. To sum it up, what finally turned the tide were the new Remington 209ML primers.

OK, here's what I'm shooting:
TC Omega SS 50 cal., laminated thumbhole stock
Bushnell 3200 Elite 3 X 9 X 40 (Firefly reticle) with Maxima QR rings and mount
SVL Limbsaver recoil pad (put that on after 10 rounds [ouch!] -- it really works)
90 grn. BM3
260 grn. PR Dead Center

I couldn't seem to hit a bullet with the broad side of barn until I tried the Rem 209ML primers. I also had pretty good luck (~1.25 in. groups) with 209ML primer/90 grn BM3/Hornady 250 SST, but I just about broke my Power Rod trying to shove the SSTs down. The PR DCs work in my Omega, so it looks like I'll take them whitetail hunting.

Before this, I tried standard Rem primers (very dirty) and CCI primers (much cleaner).
As to my propellant choice, no, I have only tried BM3 and I'm not likely to experiment at this point. My son-in-law has a TC Encore and shoots Pyrodex -- hey, what's that smell? -- and Trip-7. No thanks. I don't care about crud rings, but I have never had that problem with BM3. My problem's always been with grouping.

So, I have a question:
Has anybody else experienced improved grouping and/or less crud with the Rem 209ML primers?

I plan to continue working up my loads, but I'll have to wait until the temp cools off a bit before I can finalize my hunting load.

Thanks,
J.P.

cavebob · « **Reply #1 on:** September 10, 2005, 12:10:11 AM »

How did the SVL Limbsaver recoil pad match up with stock?

slayer · « **Reply #2 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:55:02 AM »

Great question, as I just got a new H&R Sidekick and am going to try the Rem 209ML primers first, hate those crud rings!! as a side, I am probably going with regular 2F Blackpowder. Jack.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #3 on:** September 10, 2005, 08:05:00 AM »

Two responses. My Limbsaver matched up with the Omega synthetic stock just great (I suggest you use the original screws not the ones that come with the pad as they are too short). For the second guy; if you are going to regular Black Powder I suggest you go with fffg not ffg. Burns somewhat cleaner.

slayer · « **Reply #4 on:** September 10, 2005, 04:33:15 PM »

I appreciate that Keith, I will try the FFFG. If I use 100 gr of FFG, how much FFFG would be similar? Thanks-Jack.

AndyHass · « **Reply #5 on:** September 10, 2005, 05:02:55 PM »

Is that the .40 260 gr DC? If so, not too surprising if you had trouble getting it to group. That bullet was designed with the Savage in mind...theoretically the Omega twist is too slow to shoot it. I tried the DCs in my gun (same as yours) with some inconsistent results.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2005, 08:20:32 PM »

Quote from: slayer

I appreciate that Keith, I will try the FFFG. If I use 100 gr of FFG, how much FFFG would be similar? Thanks-Jack.

I am not sure about that as I don't shoot real black very often. I would guess that it is about 15% more powerful. Another rough method would be to weigh the 100gr. volume measurement of both and compare. Since the fffg is finer 100gr. volume measurement is going to weigh more than the same volume measurement of ffg. I would then go with the same weight of black powder in fffg that matches the weight of 100gr. volume of ffg. (Hope that made sense to you). Maybe someone else can add their experience???

slayer · « **Reply #7 on:** September 11, 2005, 01:08:03 AM »

I will try that method Keith and go form there!! Thanks-Jack.

newhunter1 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 12, 2005, 05:01:30 AM »

I'm a newbie as well, but I have found a sweet load. I am using BM3 with 90 grains, precision bullets in the 330 grain extreme bullet. Not the extreme elite. I have also used the QT 215 grain bullet and the results were also exceptional.

Here is my report...

QT 215 grain, 90 grains of BM3
I shot this bullet 10 times. After getting the bullet to hit where I wanted I found that this bullet would shoot at 50 yards a group that you could cover with a quarter. Many of the bullets would shoot in the same hole or EXTREMELY close to it. Either way I had 5 rounds that were very exceptional. I did not shoot this round at 100 yards.

Exteme bullet 330 grain with 90 grains of BM3

Once I got this bullet sighted in I shot 25-30 rounds both at the 50 and 100 yard line.

50 yards was also exceptional. Basically I was putting round after round in the same area. I think (forgot) that the grouping was not as tight as the 215 grain, but it was still 1 1/4" grouping @ 50 yards. At 100 yards I fired ten rounds and had a 2 to 2 1/2 group. This is my hunting round and I find this to be acceptable. I plan on working on this group to get it better, BUT my hunting area I won't get a shot thats more than 60 yards. So I'm not to worried about the 100 yard range.

I don't have the 25 acp conversion with my Omega. I use the winchester primers.

I have found that in my Omega it seems to love the heavier bullets with the moderate charge. Although in the 215 grain bullet it loved that as well. I found that strange because I had used the 295 grain Power Belts and another 300 grain bullet that I did not get consistent groups from.

In using the 460 No Excuse conicals with a wonder wad I found great groups at 50 yards. This will be my backup round and I shoot this round also with 90 grains of BM3. Either the 330 Exteme sabot or the 460 No Excuse conicals are great rounds for what I'll be doing.

Can't wait till I hit a deer with either of these rounds.

Paul

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #9 on:** September 12, 2005, 06:55:16 AM »

Newhunter1: You might want to reconsider 90gr. of Black Mag'3 with 460gr. bullet. I think for a shot under 100 yards that is way too much energy for deer. The recoil has to be a little heavy also. I shoot a 90gr. charge of Black Mag'3 with a 300gr. SST and managed to shoot completely through an elk at about 90 yards. I have done the same with the same charge of Black Mag'3 and a 295gr. Powerbelt aerotip. With the heavy bullet I think I would back down to more like 80gr. I forgot to mention that the above is with a stainless Omega. Black Mag'3 seems to perform the best out of long barrel rifles with heavier bullets. I have not shot any heavier than 348gr. however.

newhunter1 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:06:56 PM »

You know I guess I could reduce the charge some with the 460's, but to be honest the recoil really wasn't that bad. Shoot, my mossberg 12 ga 695 packs so much more of a recoil. It really hurts to say the least is actually an understatement.

Later this week or next I'll go out and see what 80 grains would do. I do still like the 90 grains with the 215 grain and 330 grain precision bullets.

Looking forward to black powder season.

Paul

TripleDeuce50 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2005, 02:04:00 PM »

I tried the new Kleanburn primers from Remington and was not impressed at all. I shoot a NEF Sidekick and the breech area appeared to be just as dirty as when I was using the Winchester normal 209's

MY 2 Cents.

slayer · « **Reply #12 on:** September 15, 2005, 10:44:26 AM »

That is the reason why i question, why did Remington dicontinue the good ones and bring out something that doesn`t work as well? Jack.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #13 on:** September 15, 2005, 02:26:48 PM »

Remington still makes the standard shotgun 209 primer and the "new" Kleenbore ML primer is just the old 209-4 primer that they used to sell for the .410 shells; so I don't think they have discontinued anything just remarketed with some change in description to fit the new market. At least that is the best information I have been able to collect.

poncaguy · « **Reply #14 on:** September 20, 2005, 05:53:49 PM »

They work fine in my Tradtions LT, after 3 shots with 777 pellets and 348 grain Powerbelts, no crud ring. Also, got my second doe tonite, 100 yards with above load. Dropped in her tracks, found slug just under skin on far side, had mushroomed to 3/4" after hitting right shoulder and lungs..................

Grunthunter · « **Reply #15 on:** September 25, 2005, 03:33:06 PM »

I had thought they were 204ml primers . not 209's :oops:
Must be why the guy at Bass Pro didn't know what I was talking about last Sat. I went back and found one of MY OWN postings where I had read about the 209-4 primers and someone found out that Remington doesn't make them anymore. They are now called 209-ML primers , and yes, they are basically for the .410 shot shell

slayer · « **Reply #16 on:** September 26, 2005, 02:13:19 PM »

Great info Gents, thank you very much!! Jack.

Grunthunter · « **Reply #17 on:** September 27, 2005, 12:00:31 PM »

I stopped by our local Wal-Mart and they have the Remington Muzzle Loader primers (209ML) for $5.67 per 100. I also noticed that they have Winchester Muzzle Loader primers (209 ML) for $3.67 per 100. I bought some of each to try out.

Grunthunter · « **Reply #18 on:** September 27, 2005, 12:16:10 PM »

I stopped by our local Wal-Mart and they have the Remington Muzzle Loader primers (209ML) for $5.67 per 100. I also noticed that they have Winchester Muzzle Loader primers (209 ML) for $3.67 per 100. I bought some of each to try out.

slayer · « **Reply #19 on:** September 28, 2005, 10:25:00 AM »

$200 a box is a big difference, please let us know the differences in accuracy and crud ring and such? Thanks-Jack.

Grunthunter · « **Reply #20 on:** September 28, 2005, 01:42:41 PM »

Quote from: slayer

$200 a box is a big difference, please let us know the differences in accuracy and crud ring and such? Thanks-Jack.

Slayer, Sorry, a slight typo. The Winchester's were $3.96 a box, still that's $1.71 difference though.

The Winchesters are in a light tan box and labeled "209 PRIMERS FOR IN-LINE MUXXLE LOADING RIFLES" The top and bottome of the box is marked No. WML209. Front of the box has a big buck head on it.

The Remington is in a bright green box and Labeled "Remington Black Powder, KLEANBORE MUZZLELOADING PRIMERS". I really had to look hard to find the part number. It's on the top in really small font "209ML".

slayer · « **Reply #21 on:** September 29, 2005, 01:34:34 PM »

$200 :eek: I meant $2.00

Anyway, thank you very much for the info Sir

Jack.

xs pro-comp · « **Reply #22 on:** October 18, 2005, 06:44:25 AM »

I tried them and did not see any difference between them and the win. that I had been using. I'm staying with the win. because I but them in bulk for my shotshell reloading, 5000 primers for $100.00.

slayer · « **Reply #23 on:** October 18, 2005, 12:38:37 PM »

I use the Veriflame with Small Pistol Primers, works great!! Jack.

J.P. Harrington · « **Reply #24 on:** October 19, 2005, 04:53:33 PM »

Wow. This thread turned up some interesting topics.

Just a follow up to my original post (see the top of this thread).

Re: Limbsaver Pad; Scheels didn't have a pad for my laminate stock, just one for synth stocks. A little work with a cutting disk on the ol' Dremel to cut the 'locator' off the mating surface and it fit just fine. And Yes, use the original TC pad screws -- they work better.

Re: Primers; I'll cut this story short. I thought I had my gun dialed in, but I was wrong. A bad scope was the culprit. Nevertheless, the Rem ML primers work well in my TC Omega, but the Veriflames are cleaner. (A cheap, Harbor Freight ultrasonic cleaner makes short work of cleaning those primer casings -- and does a great job on the breech plug too.)

RicMic · « **Reply #25 on:** October 29, 2005, 03:18:21 PM »

I was using CCI 209's bad crud ring. Switched to the Remington ML 209's and no more crud ring. I'll try the Winchester 209's next time out.

elk_chaser1 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 02, 2005, 04:52:46 PM »

Quote from: newhunter1

In using the 460 No Excuse conicals with a wonder wad I found great groups at 50 yards. This will be my backup round and I shoot this round also with 90 grains of BM3. Either the 330 Exteme sabot or the 460 No Excuse conicals are great rounds for what I'll be doing.

Can't wait till I hit a deer with either of these rounds.

Newhunter1,

I had great sucess on mule deer during the ML season here in CO using the 460 gr NE conical. Shooting a SS Omega with 90 gr. of 3F BP, I took a nice doe at about 45 yards...bullet went clean through and left a massive blood trail. She ran about 10 yards and piled up. Highly recommend the NE bullet.