Bench Rest Accurate??

[Eastsider]

Recently, I went to our local clubs Bench Rest Match.  When I asked one of the guys about using a Contender he showed me a grasshopper target that they use for the pistol class. He went on to say that a Contender won't shoot with the pistols that they use. My understanding is that they shoot at a target with a lifesize drawing of a grasshopper at 100 yds. and 200 yds. He uses a modified scoped XP 100 in a .30 bench rest caliber, and he is the all time champion in the club.
   Well, at first I was a bit put off with his Contender comment, and I thought that maybe this was one of those Ford, Dodge, Chevrolet (NOTE ORRECT ORDER) things. Then I noticed that he drove a Ford so I started to think that maybe he knew something that I don't know.
    I understand that there are differences in the 2 actions and that a bolt action is more accurate, but I keep thinking that we are not talking about inherent accuracy but hitting a target with what looks like a crime scene outline of a dead grasshopper.
    Am I missing something here, or did I just talk to somebody that has his own opinion about certain guns????

[T/C nimrod]

Don't sweat the small stuff. Sign up for a match or two, get your feet wet and make your own conclusion. If I didn't shoot my Contender at 200 yards the first time someone told me it couldn't be done, I'd be missing something. There is a Postal Match coming to an end right now, and the target for the match is five(5) 3/4" flys (the little winged critters that land on your potato salad in the summer). This target is shot at 100 and 200 yards w/ handguns only. I know of at least four guys shooting Contenders/Encores in this match.

Go ahead give it a try........I did, bought a Dodge after owning Fords and Chevys.....should have bought the Dodge first!  :bye:

[jhalcott]

t/c you did not mention the caliber you use . For bench rest ,you want a gun with little recoil. The pounding your nerves take results in larger groups.A 7 t/c u is a good round. You can get one hole 5 shot groups @ 100 yards if you do your part..30 caliber rounds ,like 30 Herret or 30-30 can also be loaded to super accuracy.The 30-30 has more recoil though.
 I assume you are allowed to use a scope,and the more powerful the better for this game. Bolt guns are more accurate than other actions as a group but t/c's can and do hold their own as far as accuracy is concerned.

[Paul H]

In an absolute sense, the bolt guns have some accuracy advantages.  However, a contender pistol with a good accurate barell, shoots more accurately then most shooters realize.

I would think for shooting paper, using a match grade 22 k hornet or 221 fireball could be competitive for the use you describe.  Then again, grasshopper is a small target at 200 yds, and you need every bit of accuracy you can get.

[X-Ring]

Had a Dodge, Had a Chevy, Had a Ford, Drive an International Scout now and for the past 25 years.

[Greyfox]

I'll agree with Paul,
the bolt guns will have a small advantage, but most shooters will not be able to tell the difference. There's a fella on another forum that uses for a signature "if you can see it, you can hit it". This is definitely true of Contenders and Encores. I know for a fact that an egg can be consistently hit @200 yards with a Contender. As far as a life-sized drawing of a grasshopper, I'll say the same thing, if you can see it, you can hit it. There are plenty of Contenders that are capable of 1/2m.o.a. shooting.
I think the ol' boy who told you the Contenders couldn't hang with their guns was either ignorant or trying to blow a little smoke and play some head games.

I have personally shot a 3" angle iron turned sideways @ 550 yards with a Contender. I have also seen 3" groups at the same distance shot in a 35mph crosswind.  Matter of fact, I have pictures and several witnesses.

Rick

[helobill]

I don't think the bolt action pistol holds any advantage to a break open action in any low recoiling round. When you get to higher recoil you might see a slight advantage go to the bolt action since the bolt will ensure the pressure doesn't impart a torque between the barrel and action. However, it is harder to ensure your casing is properly fitted to the chamber and throat, which if it isn't will really cause accuracy problems. (ask a bench rest shooter to change bolts in the middle of a match, he'll look at you like you've got rocks in your head. Each bolt could be slightly different, allowing for more or less space. On the other hand, except for trigger pull, changing frames should have no impact on accuracy of an E or C) Never tried to hit a grasshopper at 200 yards, but with enough scope I'm pretty confident my .30 Bellm would do it 8 of 10 times. I'll let you know when the snow melts 'cause I'm gonna have to try this! Anybody got a 12 power scope I can borrow? :grin: Best I've got is a 2.5-7X Burris...maybe that is enough.
Helicopter Bill

[xphunter]

A boltgun has a more rigid action than a break-open (especially a singleshot action), and inherrently more accurate.   With that being said.  a Contender out to two hundred yards with a good barrel that also has a good, chamber, throat,  crown, w/good load development will be as accurate competitively speaking (in other words it will come down to the level of the shooters skill in doping wind, handling pressure, etc.) as that XP will be.   I know this to be true and I am an XP man.  I was with greyfox this past May in Nebraska if that is what he was alluding to.  What he said happened, I was there too.  
Don't allow this guy to mess with your mind.  If he has a tricked XP it may be difficult for a stock Contender to compete.  If you have the same quality level on your TC you will be able to compete.  A 14-15 inch heavy barreled Triple Deuce with a Leupold high magnification (6.5-20 or 24 power) rifle scope would be highly competitive. A Bower type rest system would also help you overcome the slow locktime with an external hammer and movement it has when it hits.
But even if you don't buy anything else, go out there have fun and learn.  You may just surprise yourself, not to mention some other people.
xphunter

[thomas]

what do you mean by bench rest?
If you show up at a Bench Rest match with your Encore chambered in 6PPC and compete with the bolt guns you are going to go home VERY disapointed.
Now if you are talking just fun shooting and hunting then your Encore or contender is going to shoot wonderful. You may even get a .250 group if you are really on your game....But A real bolt gun in bench rest is going to shoot into the .100 Range.
I find it very funny to hear how everyone went and EMBARRASED the bolt rifle guys at the range??? PLEASE
For normal hunting and target shooting these Encore and Contenders are GREAT.
You aint gonna see no TC at a bench rest match now boys.
tom

[xphunter]

I guess I missed the boat on this, but I was under the assumption that this a specialty handgun benchrest competition that follows the same rules as the rifle guys.  Maybe I have misunderstood, but it is my understanding that a Contender fully tricked (hummer barrel, tight neck chamber, rifle scope, rings, bedding, proper rest system, etc.) should be right up there in the running.  The XP's would have the advantage by being able to chamber higher pressure cartridges like the 22 & 6 PPC which the Contender cannot handle plus the advantage of a more rigid action.  If you turned your XP into a rear grip you could put a Jewell trigger on it ( and yes, that would be a +).  Do the Bolt Specialty pistols have the advantage?  Yes!   Can the Contender compete?  I believe so, if you are as "tricked" as the other guys handgun & have the same or better shooting skill.  Since I have never owned a "tricked Contender" to the level I am describing I cannot speak from personal experience.  I can't say, "been there done that."  But it sure would be fun!  
Oh, and by the way, I have seen specialty handguns beat and and sometimes embarrass rifle shooters a number of times.  Where the rifle shooters shooting bench guns?  NO!  But these specialty handguns are not bench handguns either.  Been there, Done that.
xphunter

[thomas]

What kind of rifle would you be speaking of? And who was shooting?
It stands facts are Facts. TC handguns have NO chance in a Bench shoot.
Take your shelien barrels and worked over trigger....... Maybe you out shot a normal guy with a Close to stock rem 700 OK
Now go to a real bench shoot. Worked over remington 700 actions or Panda actions. 1 1/4" barrels shooting in the .100 for groups.
You are not going to embarass any of them. A encore or contender will not be in the running. You might embarrass the guy who cannot shoot his wizbang hunting rifle OK.
If TC were as good as some say they would be used in Bench rest matches.
When was the last BENCH REST match you even SEEN a TC Compete?
Hey I love my TC's And yes I have the HOTROD barrels including Match grade Lijla barrel on one of them. it is an HONEST .250 gun in 6PPC
But it is NOT near as good as my remington... Panda....Lija 700 6PPC
The TC IS NOT a bench gun.
call it as you wish.
I get a real kick out of some of you!
This was never meant to be a ARGUMENT.
Some just make more out of the TC then they really are.
Of course Its is hard to put $4000.00 in a TC with one barrel...Price BIG advantage for TC
Now as for a BOLT handgun? Ya a TC is pretty close But with Good hart action and a Good Barrel you cannot get the real accuracy from TC your could out of your XP just due to the break open action not holding the Case steady enough. Close But no cigar. I also dont think you can get the trigger as good. My Panda bench gun is set at 2 oz Not sure the TC can get that low? Any way Not knocking TC's I have 5 of them Great guns.....NOT bench guns.
And by the way An egg is pretty big at 300 yards for a Bench gun
IN match an average 500 yard group will be 3" range at the worst giving good wind conditions.
tom

[xphunter]

Tom,
Interesting bed-time topic.  I hope to put my part of it to bed, then I'm going myself.  I think Eastsider's original question stemmed from pistol competition not rifle competition:

"Recently, I went to our local clubs Bench Rest Match. When I asked one of the guys about using a Contender he showed me a grasshopper target that they use for the pistol class. He went on to say that a Contender won't shoot with the pistols that they use. My understanding is that they shoot at a target with a lifesize drawing of a grasshopper at 100 yds. and 200 yds. He uses a modified scoped XP 100 in a .30 bench rest caliber, and he is the all time champion in the club."

My guess is that your Lilja Contender Barrel with you behind it would be competitive at that kind of "handgun match."  Unless, every one is using a tricked XP's or other benchrest single-shot actions modified into rear grip Bench pistols.

I have no doubt that true bench rifles will beat Contenders.  
When guys go to the range with their spcialty pistols most of the time the guy shooting a rifle beside them is using a hunting rifle or a varmint rifle that may or may not have been customized (most of these guys do not own an arbor press, Kelby rings, or turn necks).   Not many of the hunting rifles will consistently shoot 1/2 minute of angle @ 100 yards or even 3/4 MOA @ 100 yards for 5 shot groups.   You have at least one Contender that will consistently beat the average and probably a number of the custom rifles.   You likley use a Hart accuracy asset and a benchrest front rest ( or something that is consistent).  My specialty handguns are designed for hunting ( with the exception of one that is still not finished yet--an XP-100 in 6.5-284), and the majority of the time I will shoot at the same level or better than the average hunting and varmint rifle.  When guys talk about shooting better groups than the rifles I don't know of anyone who would say that their handgun will consistently out shoot a rifle specifically designed for bench competition.
I don't think we are disagreeing.  It sounds like we are talking baout tow differnt things.
I think you are comparing The TC with RIFLES SOLEY DESIGNED FOR BENCHREST, and saying they can't compete--I agree.   I have never read of a a TC action winning a rifle bench match--don't expect to.
What I was emphasizing is that  a tricked Contender can be in the running with XP-100 handgun and similar types of handguns in a handgun match.
I have already said that the bolt pistol is more inherently accurate than a break open because of several factors--we agree again.
And that a good number specialty handguns will be more accurate than a number of stock rifles (wizbang) out there--which you have said as well.
Since I have 4 XP's and no TC products I guess my purchasing choices have expressed what I believe to be the best product for me--An XP!
Well, I had a good catharsis.  Now I'm ready for bed.  
xphunter

[thomas]

with you MOSTLY
But one thing is for sure. On the interent and on the phone
or at lunch time discussions Most shoot 1/2" groups or better.
Not sure what happens when they show up tp the range and they only shoot 1" groups!
Kinda like the big fish stories where the 1 1/2lb bass grew to 8lbs !


And as for your XP  If you think it is good now?
Change the action or get it trued and your groups will SHRINK even more.

Its been fun
tom

[xphunter]

Tom,
Good morning.  Yes, fish stories and groups have a lot in common--people will be people.
Three of the XP-100's I'm talking about were built for hunting, I'm not a competitor.  At the same time they (7mm-08, 284 Winchester, 7.82 Patriot) were also built to be as accurate as possible yet still functional in the field.  They were built by two different accuracy smith's.  One who is out of the game now, Chunk Youngblood--Molliballistics, and Greg Tannel of Gre-Tan Rifles www.gtrtooling.com Greg is both a competitor @ 1,000 yard "light" and builds accuracy tooling for other accuracy smiths--check out his web page.  You will also see Greg's stuff from time to time in PS or The Accurate Rifle.
All these barrels were Shilen's Select Match, Tight neck chambers (but I didn't run as tight as tolerances as a bench gun for common sense field use reasons of dirt, etc.), trued action, sleeved bolt, H-S Precision Stock that was double pinned (not glued) and bedded even though it has the aluminum bedding block, designed the reamers from the brass, titanium firing pin, etc.  The barrel contours were not set-up for bench, but for hunting, and I stayed with the center-grip design (my preference for hunting) and I left the safety on and trigger pull with it's linkage can only be so good and still be safe.  2.5-7, 3-9, 10X, and the new 3-12's with Ballistic Plex with lapped rings have graced these XP's.  Unforming primer pockets, flash-hole uniformers, and most of the usual benchrest case prep was used but I used more than 5 or ten cases.  Right now I have a 6-24 B&L on a 260 Remington which is screwed into a MOA action that seems to cry out for good groups with hunting bullets, but because of weather and time constraints I have been unable to shoot it with this scope on it.  My shooting is done not with target bullets but the actual bullets I use in the field.  The 6.5-284 is an accuracy experiment for me at long range.  It is still a centergrip, but I wouldn't want to lug it around for hunting in the mountains.  It has a Krieger barrel and it will be run at tighter tolerances with match bullets.  Ideally, the Leupold target scopes have the longest eye relief of any rifle scope that I am aware of and one day I will try one out on this XP to see if I can use it without getting kissed.  My stuff is far from stock, but was built both for accuracy, but not at the expense of field use.

[thomas]

XP I have been thinking about doing this also. I just have no idea how large a caliber you can make this work with.
I wonder if I can get away with a rifle scope on my 221?
or a 30 herrett?
Tom

[KYODE]

hey thomas, i am in the process of trying the riflescope on my .223. got whacked in the nose a few times  now i'm gonna try loadin 40gr'rs with blue dot powder. supposedly not much recoil, with respectable velocity. i can't see it workin on a 30 herrett :shock:  maybe on the .221 :?

[Eastsider]

I was able to get a copy of the target that they use at the local range for there shooting competition, I know that they shoot with the benchrest guys but not sure of all of there rules. If anyone would like a copy I am going to Kinkos next week and have several copies made. I would just like to see what I can do with such a small target. It has 6 road kill grasshoppers in a circle.
As most of you are, I like accurate guns and started this thread to see if anyone thought it possible that a Contender would give these guys a run for ther money. I've decided that with a little practice and maybe a custom barrel I might be able to blow some smoke away.
Thanks for all of the informative answers (maybe even those from the XP guys)
I find it amazing what you can learn if you ask questions.
Thanks
(If you want a copy of the target send me a PM and I will mail it to you)

[xphunter]

Tom,
As mentioned in my last post, I will try the 6-24 B&L on my MOA Maximum (Falling Block rear-grip specialty handgun that has interchangeable barrels), which has a 14 inch 260 Remington (also has a brake).  I think some of the factors that will determine if it is a go or no go is: eye relief of the given rifle scope, cartridge, bullet weight, MV, Muzzle brake or no-brake, and the over all weight of the specialty handgun.  What I intend to do is to get set-up with a full field of view then back away as far as possible but still be able to see my aiming point.  I don't have a Leupold 6.5-20 Target, but am going to borrow one in the next week or two.

Eastsider,
Keep us updated on your handgun bench shooting interests.  Good luck and have fun.

xphunter

[thomas]

I have done the rifle scope thing on a 22 Mag 16" tube
I think it is time to try it on the 221.
At a match I went to I saw guys using rifle scopes on a 223 and a 7TCU
Both were using a Ken Light mount
tom