Is a single action that far behind?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Just curious how outpaced a single action is compared to some of the modern wiz-bangs out there.

With the heftier calibers at its disposal, I would think a single action might not be that bad a choice for defense.  I think of L.E. training guys to double tap with their 9mms - that takes a 14 round magazine right down to 7.  That's not much of an advantage over a wheel gun.

Of course reloading a single action would be tough in a tight spot.  No getting around that.  But most situations don't call for a reload.

But what about familiarity of the firearm?  That's got to count for something.  If a guy just likes to plink at the range with his six-shooter, and as a consequence has way more experience with it than a semi-auto, might he be better off packin' what he's familiar with?

[leverfan]

It's pretty common for cops to be invited to cowboy action competitions.  The cops shoot their semi auto handguns, Remington 870 shotguns, and AR15s.  Often as not, they get their butts kicked by a bunch of old retired farts with obsolete weapons.  It's because those old farts with the old guns practice.

Reloading a S&W top break revolver isn't nearly as slow as reloading the Colt-style single actions.

[dakotashooter2]

For whatever reason I can always shoot a SA better than a semi auto and would have no reservations about using one for SD. More firepower is only an advantage if you know how to use it. The gangbanger who goes out and runs 5 mags through a semi auto and hits the target 1/2 dozen times is not as big a threat as he thinks he is.

[Redhawk1]

Single action's still kick butt.  

[Blackhawk44]

While the single action is far from the weapon needed by assault teams in Iraq (its a different mission), in the average American town and urban situation, it can give a good account of itself when handled by someone well versed in its use.  A number of the Greatest Generation that are now passing from us, with their conviction, mindset and training, were among the most remarkable defensive fighters that it has been my priviledge to meet, in spite of their 'single actions'.  They took the tool that was available to them and became its master.  They had no concept of the notion that they were supposed to be at a disadvantage due to lack of 'magazine capacity' or 'reloading speed'.  Another reminder that many times it is the man and not the machine that makes the difference.

[oso45-70]

Gents

I've seen some of them old coots fire a single action Revolver so fast you would think they was using an auto. Not too long ago there was a bunch of sass people came out to the Whittington center and i could hardly count the shots fired by this old feller and he was hitting every time he fired a shot. So in my opinion its not the SAs thats out of step.........Joe..........

[TScottO]

My question is how many people would leave the house with a SA if they knew they were going to be in a handgun fight? I do not doubt there are people proficient enough with a SA to defend themselves however I believe there are many more people out there living deceived that, they themselves are well protected with a single action when they are not.

For woods carry and hunting the SA is hard to beat but in urban surroundings and situations I feel there are much better tools for the job for the average CCW carrier. The guns do not have to be wizbanged to get the job done but other guns are better suited to keep concealed as well as having extra ammo and the ease of reloading. I for one do not want to base defending my life on statistics. If stats say that most gun fights occur with in 10 feet and have less than six shots fired that’s all fine and good but you’re not going to catch this white boy under gunned or shy of ammo just because the stats say more times than not I’ll be just fine.

I prefer 1911’s or a compact to mid frame Smith and Wesson. Which ever piece I’m carrying I will have a loaded gun and one full reload. Carrying in public is a serious issue and responsibility to me as well as having confidence in my gun ammo combination should I ever have to use it.

In short, I guess, carry what you can use very well but we should be honest enough with ourselves so not to be deceived in our true ability to use our weapon of choice. In my opinion there are better tools for the job and make sure you use good judgment for protecting yourself as well as being conscious of every surrounding persons safety.

I always chuckle at the comedian, Eddie Murphy or Richard Prier, who said when white boys watch Rocky movies they walk around all puffed up on the streets fired up and ready to take on the world. I guess the same could be said about gun enthusiast watching old Clint Eastwood movies.

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on it. I guess ive neverleft the house figuring on a gunfight. I live in a real rual area and for all practical purposes dont need to carry any gun. But i do and sometimes its a single action sometimes its a da and sometimes its a 1911. Usually a 1911 because if for no other reason there easier to conseal. I too shot a SA slightly better then an auto and wouldnt feel one bit undergunned with a 4 inch 45 colt in my belt. I guess i cant see a senerio where id be in a prolonged gun battle occouring. Only thing ive actually use my consealed gun for is to put down a car hit deer or shot a coyote or some other vermin ive ran across. If i live in a major city I would probably be carrying a 1911 again because its easier to conseal if for no other reason. But bottom line i guess is any gun is better then no gun. Personally id run like hell if anyone pulled a bearcat out on me!!

[6Shooter]

The single action revolver is not behind, it's more likely the shooters of today are behind. I'm a lover of guns and I love to shoot them so practice is fun for me but I see people all the time who have guns that don't hardly ever practice and don't have shooting skills with any gun.
 The single action takes a back seat to no handgun for defense.
 If I was concerned that I may be getting into a gun fight, as some have said I would carry two guns and maybe a shotgun too.
 A man or woman who knows how to shoot their guns, single action or not, will most likey give bad guys a hard time.

[leverfan]

My question is how many people would leave the house with a SA if they knew they were going to be in a handgun fight? .

Why the heck would I leave the house if there was a gunfight waiting outside?  And why, for the love of monkeys, would I stroll out with a little handgun, semi auto, single action, double action, pepper box, or any other?  

The original question acknowledged that more modern firearms may be superior to the old designs, but it also took into account the user's familiarity with a particular firearm.  If all you shoot is a Ruger Blackhawk, and you don't know your way around a 1911, you're better armed with a Blackhawk.  With practice, a single action revolver shooter can give a run-of-the-mill semi auto user a serious challenge on the range or in a more serious encounter.  Most gunfights are decided within 3 or 4 shots.  

That being said, the only single action revolver I've ever packed in urban areas was a NAA mini 22 mag.  It was my last ditch carry piece, back before the Kel-Tec P32 came out.  I prefer a semi auto or a double action revolver for defense, but I wouldn't feel too bad with a single action.  I haven't noticed anyone on the thread advocating ditching their 1911s in favor of 1873s, or basing their handgun choices on Clint's movies.  Besides, Clint sold a lot more model 29s than single actions with his movie career!

[TScottO]

I believe people have a right to carry a gun for self defense. I believe people have the right to choose their weapon but I do not agree with everyone’s choices. I carry for two reason: One reason is to exercise my right to carry and the second reason is to defend my life if need be. The second reason is what determines what I carry and what caliber I carry. I’ve been fired on once and witness to two robberies where guns were pulled as well as being part of the after math when my grandfather shot a guy who attacked him and my grandmother. Unfortunately my grandfather didn’t get to a gun before the 26 year old man before he had beaten my 75 year old grandmother half to death.

Due to these things I may tend to have more intense conviction about weapon choice and caliber choice to carry for defense. I’ve seen a guy shot with a 32 and another with a 357. Even though these are only two instances I’d dare to say it’s more than most normal citizens have been privy to. Small caliber pop guns just do not cut it on the accounts I have seen.

The way I replied in my previous post was not to pick on any one or belittle their choice of gun or opinion. I just think the responsibility of defending oneself is a much more serious issue than most fodder debated on gun forums take into account.

I sincerely hope someone doesn’t base their life on carrying something because it’s small, or easy to tote, or because chance has it they’ll never have to use it, or because statistic say this or that, or because it’s the trendy thing to do.

I believe a SA in the hands of an experience shooter is just fine but I also believe that the number of people who would be better suited to carry a SA as opposed to the whizbang is very slim. Unless the people toting a SA for defense are among the top 10% of shooters I would say the SA is outdated and has fell behind the whizbang. Most of the time we are caught off guard in a situation by someone that has premeditated his attack with a weapon and is also much more mentally prepared than we will be. We start off in a situation with a disadvantage. The criminal may or may not be as good of a marksman as we are but we start off way behind from the get go.

Dunno guys, when the rubber meets the road is the wrong time to realize you should be holding a different gun.

Take Care and Be Safe,
Scott

[leverfan]

Scott,  please learn to read the posts in greater detail.  The "pop guns" I've carried were clearly called "last ditch" in my post.  That means I have something else that's a little more decisive, and the "pop guns" are my back up pieces.

No post here has claimed that single action revolvers are superior to semi autos.  However, if a single action is more familiar to a particular person, they may fare better in a life or death situation if they stick with what they know.

Many of us have faced unpleasant situations, your experiences are perhaps not as unique as you seem to believe.  We're all still here, and yes, we all still have opinions.

[West Creek Charlie]

Ya just had to went and did it dincha - ya went an opened up this here can a worms agin dincha

Well - here's my two cents

A ccw sidearm is a last resort defense weapon on all accounts - might not call it last ditch but itsa always a compramise between convenience and functionality.

I'f'n I was headed to a gun fight I'd choose to bring a long arm of approporiate configuration, shotgun fer upclose and rifle fer distance and a handgun for backup.

No weapon is ideal under all curcumstances but a good handgun serves well under most any social engagements where a normal citizen would find themselves. And - a feller carrin a single action and a feller carryin a hi-cap 9mm aint got no better chance of surviven the encounter based on his weapon. I feel it has alot more to do with that persons training, mindset and abilities. A feller who practices with his weapon and is proficient with it will be a survivor and those who fumble and stumble are going to have alot less chance of survival irregardless of his weapon.

If a confident proficient man with a SAA 45 meats a gang banger with a hi-cap 9mm - I'll bet my money on the man with proficiency.

With regard to the first post - It doesnt matter what kind of sidearm you carry - the best one for each individual is the one that person is capable and most familiar with and a smart man will become proficient with whatever he chooses as a sidearm.

[leverfan]

West Creek Charlie, you summed things up pretty darn well.

[Old Griz]

:cb2: I'm a wheelgunner at heart and many times you will find me carrying one of my S&W .357s or .41. However, I live in a high crime area with a tremendous amount of gang activity. When I take my dog (Germen Shepard) out at night, I carry my Glock 21 with 14 rounds of .45 ACP. I see them crusing by with 3 to 5 guys in the car, and I don't know how many of them are armed. Now I know that if I am confronted by 5 armed gang bangers, my situation is grave. I might not live through the ordeal. But if that happens, I don't want it to be because I ran out of ammo while I was still alive and could shoot! I'd carry a shotgun if I could, but they are hard to conceal, especially in the summertime. Anybody know where you can get some grenades . . . . . . ?

[EastKY_DO]

Old Griz,

How ya doin'?  I hate to hear you're still in the big M with all the, um, 'democrats'.  I'll keep on keepin' my fingers crossed for ya and prayin' for your guardian angel to watch your six.

I'm lovin' in here in KY, although I do miss the city sometimes.  

I carry a single action much of the time when I have the chance to bum around the hills.  But, I don't expect to run into gangbangers or other thugs then.

Later,
Doc

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Here's a little background to where this question came from.

#1. I'm not made of money, and I don't like to own a lot of "things".   Therefore, if I can have one gun fulfill a multitude of purposes, that is my preferred option.

#2.  I'm a "practice" fan.  If $100 dollars will buy me a better gun, or more ammo to practice with the gun I've got, I'll put the money into ammo.

#3. I'm a sucker for heroes of the old West and the American frontier.  

So, I have a Ruger Blackhawk .357, and I just love to go to the range, strap on a genuine leather belt, fill the cartridge loops, and blast away.  A big part of what makes it fun is the imagination factor.  So I shoot the gun a lot specifically because it has a "cowboy" flavor.

If I owned a 9mm, I can honestly say it would likely get left in the safe at home.  

The likelihood of ever needin' a gun for defense is extremely slim the way I live.  

So, it seems to me a waste of money to buy a semi-auto if I'd end up taking the .357 anyway.  

If the times ever change to the point where I decided it was necessary to practice with an uglier gun, I suppose I would switch.

[Old Griz]

:cb2: Hey Doc!

Ya makin' me jealous! Glad you're enjoying KY.

Big M is a funny place. The Fords, King Willie, and the rest of the democrats sure keep the evening news entertaining. And we also had our 100th murder this weekend, too.

Oh well, someday . . .

Black Jaque — If the Blackhawk is what you practice with, and if you're good with it, then why change? I like the idea of just buying more ammo. Bought a case of .357 125-gr. SP the other day. Wanted 158-gr., but the deal was just toooooooooo good to pass up.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

If the Blackhawk is what you practice with, and if you're good with it, then why change?

That is exactly what I was thinking.  But thought I'd give some folks the opportunity to give me a "reality check".

[alamogunr]

:cb2: Hey Doc!

Ya makin' me jealous! Glad you're enjoying KY.

Big M is a funny place. The Fords, King Willie, and the rest of the democrats sure keep the evening news entertaining. And we also had our 100th murder this weekend, too.

Oh well, someday . . .

Old Griz:

I mostly lurk here and soak up the accumulated wisdom and experience.  I have wondered where in W. TN you were located.  I never think of M______ when I think of W. TN.  West Tennessee is just the rural area and small towns from the Mississippi River to the Tennessee River.  You have my sympathy.  I don't watch the evening news but do read the Commercial Appeal.  As you said it is interesting but sometimes sad.  I have to admit I find more interesting guns at a shop in M.
John

[Old Griz]

:cb2: Yeah, as for price and selection ol' G&A is hard to beat. I've had friends come up from Dallas/Ft. Worth and be amazed at the size of the place and the variety of guns. Nothing like it even down there. Their regular price is better than gun shows. That's the one thing I will miss when we do get out of here!

[m-g Willy]

The SAA was a great gun for self defence ----in the 1870's-1890's :shock:
And the sass shooters  you see at matches are more than likely
shooting  squib loads.
And no one is shooting back at them :wink:
In the real world you cant tell where you will be or what postion you might be in when the time comes for you to defend yourself or someone else.
You could be in the open in a parking lot ,or between parked cars. Or even IN  your car parked when a car pulls up behind you and blocks you in. :shock:
There could be anywhere from one attacker to a whole gang!!!  who knows how many?
And if you look at police shootings you would be amazed at how many shots fired by trained LEO miss their mark!
Not to long ago here in Ohio police fired more than 140 rounds at a driver in a suv while he was sitting still!!!!!He was hit 9 times, and none of the shots was fatal!!!

A single action might be ok if you knew for sure that when you would need it , you would be--

1. standing up

2.Have your gun in a holster on the OUTSIDE of any coat or shirt you may be wearing.
-----(John Wesley Harding, one of the most deadly men in the old west with a single action, was subduded by being thumped on the head while going for his single action while seated on a train. His gun's hammer got caught on his cloths while he was drawing it :shock: )

3.Make sure you can get your hand on your gun before anyone engages you in any hand to hand combat--( It's tough to get a single action in to action while wrestling with one or more attackers who are more than likely bigger than you. Most perps wont attack anyone bigger or even the same size as them. :?

4. Make sure you will never have to fire more than 6 rounds. --(Just check any police shootings -shots fired compared to hits)

Seeing as you can't be sure of to many of these things you're best bet is to have a gun you can get into action with the least amount of skill as possible :wink:
That leaves you with either a good double action revolver,
 or a double action auto with any safty in the OFF postion.
I use to carry a n frame S&W when I was wearing a coat, but it was to hard to keep out of sight without a coat.
The gun I carry the most now is a Taurus CIA 357
I can carry it in the summer in my pants pocket with a shirt not tucked in.
Or I can carry it in a coat pocket with my hand on it if need be.
I can even fire it while it's still in my pocket if I would have to, seeing as it doesn't have a exposed hammer :lol:

So in my opinion (Which everyone with any sense, knows that I'm always right :roll: )
Leave the single actions for hunting and plinking.
Stick to what those who put thier lives on the line use, when it comes to your self defence needs.

--Willy

[jd45]

Leverfan, say it ain't so that Clint & his movies were responsible for more people buying S&W double action revolvers, (M-29s), as opposed to Colt or Colt-type single-action replicas. After all, he made more westerns than modern-day police/detective movies, didn't he? (I hope!) JD45

[Steve P]

A friend and I grew up in southern Oregon.  Used to go out after squirrels and chucks in the summer, and rabbits in the winter.  Shot lots of rounds together.  We usually ended up hitting about the same number of animals.  He would shoot 50-100 rounds in a day.  I would shoot 10-20.  He had a Ruger 10/22.  I had a Savage single shot.  I could not shoot that old single shot as fast as a 10/22, but it taught me patience and I learned to hit.

I have semi autos, double actions, and single actions at home.  When it comes to self defense, carrying in the car, carrying in the woods, etc,  I grab one of my Blackhawks.  

You can spray a lot of lead in the air, and may eventually hit what you shoot at.  I can take the needed time, and put the shot where it counts.  

You practice with what you have and get good.  I hope you never have to learn how good you get.

Steve  

[Old Griz]

:cb2: m-g Willy;

Good points, however, the problem here is that some folks have their minds made up, and you can't budge them with the facts. I love my SA revolvers and shoot them far more than anything else, but the superiority of a DA revolver, or automatic in a life and death situation is obvious.

I am not questioning the skills some folks have with their SAs, nor am I advocating "spray-and-pray." The mere fact that you are eliminating one step in the shooting process makes a DA—revolver or automatic—that much faster and better.

I know there are some performers who are lightening fast with a SA, but they are not shooting full loads, and these guys are one in a million. Most of us would never be that good with a SA regardless of how much practice we got. 99.9 out of a hundred will put more lead in a target faster with a DA than a SA, regardless of their skill level.

OK guys, I'm through. The floor is open for the mandatory rebuttal.  :grin:

[Cuz]

Rebuttal?? doubt you will get one. I shot both a SA & DA. the SA (.44 mag) is for hunting and the DA (.357 mag) is a CC weapon. different weapons for different situations. Your made a very fine point in regard to 'life & death' situation, give me the DA.

One would be hard pressed to say one type of weapon is superior to another in every situation. Personally, I prefer to shoot the SBH .44 magnum, but can shot the S&W .357 magnum just as well. and do!

Griz, next time I go to the range, I will yell "DUCK" 'cause you is south of me. Common curosity, ya know. We have a very nice range, but I see all types at the line. most of the Glock boys tend to be the 'spray and pray' types but a few of them boys can shoot (most are CC weapons, the weapon of choice around here is Glock, not many wheelguns). most of the SA boys tend to be more patient at the line and all are mostly good shooters. when at the range, I always run a couple of loads thru the S&W, just to keep in form.

Cuz

[Greeenriver]

There are a lot of good points brought out by both side here. Personly, I don't feel a bit under guned when carrying a SAA over an auto or double action pistol. But that's just me. Basicly, a person should carry the gun he or she shoots the best and most often. Train your reactions to handle any kind of pistol and you will handle that kind the best. I find that when I draw a double action or auto I thumb the hammer back without thinking, but then, I shoot 300 to 500 rds from a SAA every month, and maybe a box from one of the others a year.

The thing to remember is there are no deadly wepons, only deadly people. The wepon is secondary to your will to survive and your training. How you personaly react to a deadly encounter will determin if you survive, not what kind of wepon you are carying. Pick what ever you shoot best, and train yourself to react to the threat level with the proper responce, and Practis, Practis, Practis with whatever you cary.

I would much rather face a bunch of "Gange Bangers" that never practis and learned to shoot from watching TV, than one 70 year old man that has carried the same 22 revolver for 50 years and used it for everything.

Greeenriver(Just my own not so humble opinions)

[Old Griz]

:cb2: Thanks Cuz, I will be sure to lower my head and stand behind something solid.  

We don't have the luxury of a public range any more down here. The largest city in the state, and the largest county, however, under the current "Democratic" leadership both city and county are broke and they closed the range. Unless you join a shootin club, or have land somewhere, you can't even zero in your huntin' guns now.

[oso45-70]

Griz,

You can always come out here and have all the room to shoot, And you won't have to listen to the shooting at night. I have a shooting range you would be welcome to use any time you wanted to bust some caps. But you will have to learn another language in order to get along with some of the home steaders Take care..........Joe..........

[Old Griz]

:cb2: All the Spanish I've had to know here has been, "Taco Bell."  :eek: