lathes and mills

[herbie1]

anyone have a suggestion about a good reasonable lathe and mill combo for getting started in light gunsmithing any input would be greatly appreciated.

[John Traveler1]

Try browsing the home gunsmithing boards, herbie.

You will find that many users do not recommend the low-cost lathe/mill combinations.  I've used several, and find the usual complaints are valid:  they lack rigidity, accuracy, and the versatility that you buy either the lathe or a mill for.  

True, the initial attraction of affordable low price makes the lathe mill combos look good, but a few months or a year down the road, and you will find that a better quality lathe (with long bed and headstock to handle rifle barrel chambering) with a milling attachment is a far better investment.  This is particularly true if you are a machinist and used to the good and better machines at work.

I've helped friends shop for their home gunsmithing needs, and have ended up recommending they buy either a GOOD condition older American-made 10"-12"x36" lathe or a new made-in-china better quality lathe with accessories (follower and steady rests, tool holders, centers, plates, chucks, etc) with a followup drill/mill for milling needs.  This combination will cost you anywhere from $1,000-$4,000 depending on your location and luck.  I can guarantee you you will have more satisfaction and fewer "buyer's regrets" than spending $1,000 on a starter lathe/mill combo setup.

HTH
John

[Airsporter]

I agree with John 100%.  Combo machines are basically junk.  Pure frustration!

Find a nice, used American lathe - like a South Bend heavy 10" or larger (need +1'' spindle bore).  Or, buy a reasonable Pacific Rim lathe ($2k-4K), preferably Taiwan vs. China mainland.  If you go mainland Chinese, at least get one with an American motor (e.g., Enco).

Grizzly offers a number of reasonably decent mills.

While most rookies go for the lathe first, you will probably use the mill much more often for 'general gunsmithing' (unless you do a lot of barrel work).  

In the long term, you need both.

[JBMauser]

Just wanted to jump in and ask what is the primary source of unhappyness with the cheap communist made equipment.  is it accuracy? repeatability? wear, or just crap... I also want to get my toe in the water so to speak.   funds are very tight now.  JB

[Judson]

For the most part combo tools are junk!!!    Gunsmithing, in particular custom gunsmithing is my line of work and other then the Austrian Enco Super 11 or Super 13 I would not own one!     The only problem with either of these machines is that the complete set up runs from $10,000 for the Super 11 to over $18,000 for the Super 13.    They are how ever incredibly accurate and do there job very well.     I have a Super 11 that I lucked into for $400 but I have to put around $1500 to $2000 into to get up and running but it will be a great addition to my shop.
    For far less then either of these machines cost you can get a mill and a lathe from a company like Grizzly or Emco.    On the lathe you want at least 36" between centers and a lathe this size will run under $4,000 and a good size Milling machine from either company will cost about $3,000.
In reality the two separate machines is the best way to go, this is the way I went in my shop.    There have been many times that I have had two jobs going at the same time, (like on my double rifle projects) which would have been imposable with any combo machine.     One more thing do NOT get a Smithy if you must have a combo machine!!!!    I have never seen any thing sloppier!

[John Traveler1]

If you browse a few of the home shop machinist sites, you will understand what can be wrong with mainland (communisit) china made machinery.

To summarize:

1.  The products are built to compete with Taiwan-made machine tools.  To meet the price objectives, they have to cut corners on their "economy" lathes and mills, for example.  The iron castings are not aged for stability.  The metallurgy is questionable.  Accuracy and repeatablity of settings can be acceptable, or it can be just lousy...depends on the particular specimen you get.

2.  Spare parts availability may be a problem.  You break a casting, a housing, or a lag screw, and replacements may not be available, PERIOD.

3.  The top-of-the-line lathes and mills sold under the Grizzly and Enco brand names are fairly good.  You notice that they sell "good" and better" levels of machines. They also do not handle the "economy" chinese models.

4.  The cheapest models as sold at Harbor Freight are okay for casual hobby use, but most users have quickly discovered the shortcomings of an HF lathe or lathe/mill combo.  Any trained machinist will point out the deficfiencies, namely: sloppy fit, lack of repeatibility, stability, and precision, and overly poor quality.

5.  I've found that the bottom-end machines are primarily made in India and mainland China.  ditto for tooling and accessories.

6.  Please remember that Mainland China is a relative newcomer to the consumer market for powered machine tools.  They are trying to compete with other countries that have decades, if not generations of experience in building power machine tools.

With these considerations in mind, I stand by my earlier statement that a hobbyist can do well by shopping carefully for good condition used American machines, or going directly to the better quality Taiwan-made lathes and mills.

HTH
John