Heavy Bullets for thin skined game

[Greeenriver]

Just a question here, and NOT flaming the use of heavy bullets.

I was just wondering why so many of you recomend such heavy bullets for Deer.  Deer are a relitivy thined skined animal and not realy hard to put down with standard weight bullets in .357, .41mag, .44special and .44mag, or .45lc. by standard weights, I am refering to commanly loaded Factory weights for the above, 158grn, 180 & 200 grn, 200 to 240 grn, and 200 to 250 grn.  I see many recomending 270 to 360 grn bullet sfor the 44's and 45's, and heaver than 180's for the .357's and .41's.

Over the years, I have shot Deer with most of the above cal pistols, .357, none with the .41's, one with the .44special, several with the .44mag, and several with the .45lc's. Never have I used a load heaver than what I could buy at the local hardware store, eather in powder of in bullet weight. The .44mags were the heavest, being 240 grn JHP's from Remington, and after one box of them, I started loading 180 grn JSP's to reduce the recoil.

Now, if I was hunting bears or wild pigs, I would use a heaver bullet, but for deer I can find no reason for the overkill at all. I consider a 1000fps load in a pistol to be a hot load, most of mine run under 1000fps now, and I no longer own any .357's at all.  I can only remember recovering a couple bullets from deer in the last 30 years or so, the rest blowed right through the ribcage and were prety much one shot kills.

The last several years I have been using only the .45lc, with a 200grn bullet over a full case of Black Powder Sub. and it has done the job very well for me. I never shoot over 75 yds with a pistol at deer, and most shots are under 50yds, realy, most are under 50ft!  I'ed bet that  90% of the deer I've shot with a pistol were standing, and the other 10% were walking slowly, I've never shot at a running deer with a pistol, and can't forsee a situation where I ever would.  I hunt on private property in a very thick swamp from a perminat blind and have shot deer under 10ft from the blind.  This is more like "Harvisting" than hunting.   Filling permits and filling the freezer with the years meat.

When I hunt on State land, I usualy use a Model 94AE rifle in eather .44mag or usualy .45lc with Magteck 240grn JSP's in the .44, or my own loads of a 250grn XTP HP over lots of 4227 in the .45lc rifle.
I have used a Rossi model 92 copy in .45lc with my BP loads to take deer. Using the BP loads I have yet to recover a bullet from a deer.

With the above experences over the last 30 years or so, I have often wondered just why so many of you seem to like the real heavy weight bullets so much. I know there has to be a good reason, probibly several diferent reasons for each person, and I would be interested in hearing them, if you don't mind.

I'm a firm believer in using enough gun for the job, but could never justify using more than needed and beeting up my hands or my guns.

I'm not trying to change your minds, I honestly am sure that you all have reasons for what you shoot, I'm just interested in hearing them reasons.

I no longer own any .44mag pistols simply because I didn't like the recoil fo the Factory loads and I can't even think of any reason I would shoot any of the .454 and up pistols. I do think the .500 S&W ctg would be GREAT in a lever action carbine for deer and bear or pigs.

As I said at the start of this thread, this is not an attempt to flame anyone or start a war, just honest intrest and dialog.  My favorit pistols are usualy Single Actions, in cals from 22lr to .45lc, and a Colt New Service in 38-40(Realy like that one). I find as I get older my preferences turn more and more to old stile fixed sighted guns, mostly revolvers. I only own 3 semi autos, a .380 PPK copy, a Colt Delta 10mm, and a Ruger 22/45. The 22/45 is the only one left with fuly adjustable sights, and I'll probibly be selling it this year as it don't get shot much any more. Think I'll get a Bearcat to replace it.

Do many of you find your tastes in pistols changing as you get older?? When I was yonger, I used to love the big cal revolvers, but they ain't as much fun as they used to be for me and most of the Magnums have departed over the last few years.


Sorry for rambling on so long, let's hear some diferent viewpoints.

Greeenriver(Or, as sometimes called, Old F@RT)

[Lone Star]

Many handgun hunters are enamored of heavy-for-caliber cast bullets.   I believe there are several reasons for this; part of it is a throwback to the days of large caliber rifles which threw heavy chunks of lead and killed - if you believe the hype - like lightning.  If you subscribe to this line of thinking then obviously we have gone backwards with modern small-caliber (under .40) rifles shooting bullets at high velocities....

All kidding aside, there are advantages to heavy bullets, particularly if you have to take quartering shots which need to penetrate a lot of animal.  Here a lighter bullet with lower sectional density may fail to get through.  Heavier bullets are usually more accurate at longer ranges - but not always.  Some believe that their increased momentum is an advantage, but two bullets of the same shape but different weight which fully penetrate an animal will have the same effect, the extra weight/momentum here is wasted on the trees and the ground.

I've taken a fair number of Kodiak Island whitetails with handguns, and particularly with the .45LC I used cast bullets.  All of those used large meplat designs between 250 and 300 grains.  While they all killed the deer, I found notably better/quicker kills with good expanding bullets, particularly the Hornady 250XTP and Speer 225HP.   All these bullets were of the popular "hard cast" construction.

IMO the heavy-for-caliber handgun bullets are an advantage if you must take any shot presented, as they will be more reliable on quartering shots.  In the event that you are hunting where large dangerous game abounds, these bulelts will perform better than lighter designs to save your life. But after hunting Kodiak for most of the 27 Falls I lived in Alaska and seeing brownies every time, I never had to shoot one in defense.  The risk of that is tiny, but some hunters feel better if they are "protected".

[Redhawk1]

I feel that a heavier bullet is better than a fast light bullet. I like to anchor my deer with a big bullet. That is just the way I chose to hunt.  

[Greeenriver]

I feel that a heavier bullet is better than a fast light bullet. I like to anchor my deer with a big bullet. That is just the way I chose to hunt.  

I agree with you on this, but to me, a heavy bullet is the heaver of whatever is commanly available in factory loads. Such as a 158grn .357 vrs a 125grn .357, or a 200 or 240 grn 44mag vrs a 180 grn in the same cal., or a 200 to 250grn .45lc vers a 160 or 180 grn in the same cal.  Yet I see a lot of people recomend much heaver bullets for use on deer and I was wondering about their reasons for such a recomendation.  If a 200grn .45 gives complete penatration, a 300grn .45 is simply going farther after exiting than the 200 is, with much more recoil.

Now, if I was hunting where I was concerned about the large, (or even small) bears, I would see a need for very heavy bullets in real hot loads, but most of the deer hunting in MI is fairly short range and bears are not realy a problem arround here.

I was just hopeing that some of you would discuss your reasons for liking the heavy bullets so well.

And I do believe that, "Because I like them" is a valid reason to hunt with anything. Hunting is suposed to be fun or there is no since going hunting in the first place.

Thanks to them as have responded, and hopeing more will respond yet.

Greeenriver

[volshooter]

My reason for heavy cast bullets is the expense vs jacketed and I find heavy cast shoot tighter for me. I do like putting two bleeding holes in game.
Rick

[S.B.]

Greeenriver, good question. Although I don't agree with all of your thoughts, I agree and concur on the heavy bullet statement.

[Greeenriver]

Greeenriver, good question. Although I don't agree with all of your thoughts, I agree and concur on the heavy bullet statement.

What a dull and uninspired world this would be if everybody agreed all the time with everyone else!!   LOL!!!!!

As Volshooter said, I like two bleading holes in animals, just differ on what is necessare to obtain this effect.  LOL

When I was a kid, the first 5 deer I ever shot were with a 32-20. It worked OK and nobody ever told me it wern't enough gun for deer. I've shot deer with a 45-70 , 7mm mag, 300savage, 243, 32 special, 30-30, and other cal rifles.  In most casses the dead deer couldn't tell the diference in caliber if I did my part as I should.

I realy believe that shot placement and waiting for the "Right" shot is much more inportant than the cal of the gun or the weight of the bullet. And from reading the posts on this wire, I believe most of you think the same way.  Knowing your limits, both in range and in just how well you can place the bullet is mandatory to responsibil hunting. Anything less is an insult to the game you are hunting.

Hopeing for many more responses here, and thanks for the ones recieved.

Greeenriver

[Lloyd Smale]

contrary to what you read on the internet deer arent hard to kill. A good 250 cast will kill them just as well as a 300 and ill throw blackbear in on that statement too. There the most overated animal in the hard to kill category. Ive found they are probably easier to kill then a whitetail. I use alot of heavy cast though. Biggest reason is in most guns they shoot better and are better performers at long range. I shoot all my guns at long range (out to about 500 yards) and heavys usually fly better and that way i can have a load for a gun that will cover all the bases. In all reality a 45 or 44 with a 250 cast at 900 fps will take care of anything up to the size of an elk.

[S.B.]

Lloyd Smale, geographical location may very well have some bering on this question? My being from central Illinois, I have no area to shoot 500 yards at a target, let alone game.

[Larry Gibson]

Greenriver

I certainly have been asking the same thing here. Somehow Ross Siefried (SP?) started the heavy bullet craze with an article published some years ago. He was using a very nice customized Ruger Vaquero to shoot some water buffs down in Australia if I remember right. Seems a lot of hand gunners decided deer were of the same difficulty as there was a run on heavy cast bullets and moulds for them. I have stated here several times that I've found heavy cast bullets to kill no better than conventional cast bullets with the same profile. The really wide meplats kill better but there is no difference between a 250 gr .44 and 300 gr .44 of the same meplat profile. Both will blow through any deer at magnum velocities, even a quartering shot. I have nothing against those who want to shoot heavy bullets but have yet to see the need demonstrated on deer and, as mentioned also, black bear. Neither are hard to kill.

I also agree with the statement of "good expanding bullets" being better than hard cast bullets. It is my experience that is the case. I might add that the weight of expanding bullet used for the caliber depends on barrel length. In the .357 mag in revolvers for example the 125s are best in 4" barrels, 140-160s in 5-7" barrels and 160-180s in 8 3/8 - 10" barrels. The same is going to apply with the other magnums and their respective bullet weight ranges. With the .44 Special, 45 ACP or .45 Colt a 200 gr HP at 1100 fps is hard to beat. Not to say that the heavier expanding bullets used in short barrels or cast bullets don't kill deer well at all, they do. It's just that an appropriate expanding bullet of the correct weight will kill them better.

All is probably a very moot point since they all will kill deer if the bullet, regardless of type, is put into the heart/lungs. I guess its fun to conjecture though.

Larry Gibson

[Mikey]

Greenriver:  I use hardcast for a couple of reasons (1) they are less expensive than the commercially made jacketed bullets (2) in all my pistols and rifles the cast bullets are more accurate than the jacketed (3) hardcast bullets come in heavier weights and better designs for hunting - I prefer the semiwadcutter or flatnosed configuration, and (4) I prefer the heavier bullet for better penetration, even on light skinned animals, when the only shots that present themselves are to the major bone structures rather than through soft tissue so that the animal is anchored with one shot as long as I do my part.  JMO.  Mikey.

[BRL]

Great post. I've been wanting to use my Redhawk for deer for quite a while now. I've always been intrigued by the differences of opinions regarding deer and the .44 revolver.

[jro45]

I don't beleave you need a heavy bullet to kill a deer, but the lightest bullet my 500 will shoot is 270 gr. Now my Long Colt 45 shoots 240gr bullets. and my 357 mag shoots 158gr bullets. So I guess it all in witch gun I want to use.

[crawfish]

Heavy bullets for me in my .41s. I do it for two reasons first is that I have very limited mobility and can’t chase/track dead animals so I use 250g-265g cast bullets at 1150-1250 fps to break down the front end of the animals I shoot, they drop in place with broken shoulders and the meat isn’t shot to pieces. The other reason is that I have been able to work up loads that will shoot in any of my 13 .41 caliber handguns with those lead bullets.  I wasn’t able to do that with jacketed bullets. All I do now is grab a handgun and a box of ammo and I’m good no need to match loads to that gun.

[BrianU]

I loaded Speer 270 grain FP Gold Dots in my .44 when I carried it and I now use Beartooth 300 grain  FP GCs in the .45 I now carry.  As much as I like to experiment with different loads, my life is very busy, so I like to make sure that when the opportunity to go hunting comes up, I have a "load" that works.  Regardless if it is whitetail, hogs or elk.  Yeah, I know that a 300 grain slug will blow through a deer like its not there. I also have faith in that it will blow through an elk's shoulder, should I get lucky enough to draw a tag.  Its a load I have confidence in and it shoots very good out of my gun.  This past Saturday, I shot a feral hog with that load.  It was coming straight at me with some serious intent and I hit it at 40 yards.  The bullet entered at the base of the jaw, traversed its entire body and exited the opposite rear quarter.  That pig is now in in my freezer and as far as I'm concerned when talking large caliber pistol bullets, too much penetration is like too much money.  I guess someone could argue the recoil issue, which is a common subject.  This is interesting, because more often than not, the person that complains about the recoil of his .44 magnum, will carry a rifle that has much more noticeable recoil.  I am 5'6", weigh 160 lbs and wear a size 7.5 ring.  When someone asks me how much my .44 kicks, I equate it to shooting my 7mm-08 from a bench.  Noticeable when target shooting, but unnoticeable in the field.  I shoot a stout load in my .45 and I compare that to shooting a .30-06 from sandbags.  How many people have ever noticed the recoil of their '06 in the field?  That is how I look at it now anyway.  Maybe there will come a time someday when I will see things different, but until then I will go on shooting a bullet that I have all the confidence in the world in, knowing that it will penetrate 6 ways til Sunday.

 Brian

[Greeenriver]

Sorry for ignoring this post for a few days, I was over to Il. attending the True Grit Jr. Cowboy Action Shoot. Five stages over two days, 4 pistols, 2 rifles, and at least 8 shotgun rounds on each stage. Realy was a great time and couldn't ask for a nicer bunch of people to shoot with. Side matches on Friday and main match on Sat and Sun. Got home late last nite(Sun) and slept most of today(Mon). I shot decent, but not well enough to win anything in awards. However, I consider myself and everyone that attended winners just to attend and shoot in a match like this.  I got to also watch severla of this years IL. champions shoot, and they are AWSOME!!!!!!!!!

I probibly should have mentioned in my first post that I was mostly discussing cast bullets, I sometimes forget that others still shoot Jacketed bullets out of handguns.  LOL!!!   Sorry.

The reasons for using diferent weight bullets discussed here were well thought out and hopefuly will provide thought for everyone that reads here, both new shooters ond those of us that are, shall we say, older shooters.  Hopefuly, some of the newer handgun hunters will be able to read this and make their decisions on what to use for hunting a little easer. The bottem line for a hunting load, in my own humble opinion, is enough gun to cleanly kill the animal you are hunting, and SHOOT THAT LOAD ENOUGH TO KNOW WHAT IT WILL DO!!!!!  A good hit from a 22lr is much better than a bad hit with a 500 S&W!!!

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement is the key to consistent good hunting. If you are confident with a lighter bullet, and KNOW it will do the job, then use it. If your confidence level is higher with a heavy bullet, then that's what you should be using. Just KNOW you can cleanly make the shot before pulling the trigger.

Thank all of you for stepping in here and posting, and here's wishing you all safe and enjoyable hunting in the future.

Greeenriver(All for now till I think up another question to kick arround a bit)

[Redhawk1]

Greeenriver, there is no such thing as a bad hit from a 500 MAG. LOL :-D  

[Greeenriver]

Greeenriver, there is no such thing as a bad hit from a 500 MAG. LOL :-D  

LOL!!!!!  I used to think that too, till I went for a head shot one time, way overconfident, with a real hot loaded .45lc JHP and shot the Deer in the EAR!!!!! insted of the head.  LOL!!!  I looked real silly and the Deer lived a couple years after that.  I seen her time and time again, left ear split lengthwise and drooping over the side of her head.  I figgered so certianly that at that close distence there was no way I could miss a clean head shot.  Goes to show what over confidence can do to a person, and was a great lesson to me.  Having a couple of my friends see it made sure that that little vision will be reminded to me for life!!!!!

But I'm sure that I at least gave her a HEADAKE!!!!!!!

Greeenriver(Not many stooped mistakes I havn't made in my years of trying)

[poncaguy]

I use my big bore pistols just to hunt deer with, so I just use factory rounds. In my 15" 357 Max, I use 158 JHP, in my 45-70, use 300 or 405  JHP (15" Contender) ..........My Encore ,7mm-08, 140 grain. In my 460 15", will use 200 Cor Bon JHP . If I shoot them for plinkin', use 38, specials, 357 mags and 45 Colts.

[Hooker]

Wow this is getting some mileage.
My preference for handguns that I hunt with is the heavy weights. Of course it doesn't hurt that my GP100 likes 180s and shoots them very well. In my SBH I like the 300s I've shot these end to end plumb threw hogs some over 250# at 70 -80 yrds. And they will put a whitetail on the ground without any fuss. I can't ask for more than that. At handgun  velocities IMHO you can't beat the heavier weight bullets for terminal effects.

Pat