The 45acp is going military again!!!!!

[1911crazy]

Our goverment is giving up on the 9mm's and going back to the 45acp again!!!!!  BRAVO!!!!!!!!  Somebody finally woke up and seen the stopping power that the 9mm didn't have.  Its a firepower vs. stopping power.  I guess when your in close quarters with the bad guys the 45acp is a much better performer.  I don't think they should of ever switched in the first place.  I guess the'll go with the double stack mag 45acp.

[Dusty Miller]

I've never been a 9mm fan but I've come to believe that a PROPERLY LOADED 9mm is a very effective stopper indeed.  A 125 gr. bullet travelling at 1300 fps will cancel your ticket mo-skosh-kwik.  I think the government could save itself a lot of money by simply changing ammo.

[Questor]

BigBill:

Where can I find details about that?  I'd like to know what they're thinking.

Thanks.

[Questor]

I agree with Dusty Miller on this one, although I don't know if expanding bullets are permissible. I'd appreciate it if anyone can explain this to me. I thought only fully jacketed bullets that aren't designed to expand or fragment are "legal" for warfare.

[Mikey]

Questor - you're correct.  It was the Hague Convention that, I believe, first dealth with the concern about expanding bullets and the result was that military forces were to use non-expanding bullets so as not to cause non-healing wounds.  

Dusty - even if 9mm loads like that were commercially availalbe they couldn't be used by the military but I agree with you that a properly loaded 9mm is combat effective.  

And I agree with BigBill - they never should have switched in the first place.  Now, I wonder how much longer it will be before we see a flood of used mil-surp Beretta 9mms on the market?  Mikey.

[1911crazy]

There going to test the 45acp's from different manufacturers and i believe the max order may be for up to 650,000 1911's.  Thats a whole lotta beans for a gun manufacturer and i hope its a "US" manufacturer like Auto-Ordnance a little guy, an under dog.

[Questor]

Do you happen to know if they are  limiting the scope of the search to 1911-type guns? Or are they other designs, like SIGs, H&K, Glocks, Para Ords, etc?

[PeterF.]

If they're doing a major replacement (rather than just a few pieces for special ops types), my guess is it'll be a "standard" procurement, with lots of MIL-SPECs ... one of which might be that the gun be double action.  Plus they'll run all the competitors through various torture tests. The SIG 226 nearly won the last one (the one Baretta won); it came down to full-contract life-cycle cost, including spare parts, etc.  Whoever it is (Colt, SIG, Baretta, SA, Glock, etc.), they'll presumably set up for US manufacture, even if it's a "foreign" company.

[Blackhawk44]

Here you go, the straight scoop:http://www1.eps.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM/SOAL%2DKB/H92222%2D05%2DR%2D0017/SynopsisP.html.
It is noted that ACP is specified.  Guess that doesn't leave any GAP in the specs. :eek:   While it does not specify double action only, the spec calling for no external safety, makes the race a little tough for the 1911 frames, except maybe Para.  With the spec for suppressor capability, this request couldn't be slanted toward a certain HK could it?  This is the first time that I've seen where the handgun manufacturer was responsible for supplying holsters and mag pouches.  This could make for some interesting, and sudden, alliances. :eek:

[1911crazy]

Here you go, the straight scoop: http://www1.eps.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM/SOAL%2DKB/H92222%2D05%2DR%2D0017/SynopsisP.html.
It is noted that ACP is specified.  Guess that doesn't leave any GAP in the specs. :eek:   While it does not specify double action only, the spec calling for no external safety, makes the race a little tough for the 1911 frames, except maybe Para.  With the spec for suppressor capability, this request couldn't be slanted toward a certain HK could it?  This is the first time that I've seen where the handgun manufacturer was responsible for supplying holsters and mag pouches.  This could make for some interesting, and sudden, alliances. :eek:

I wouldn't be surprised if old ties to Colt don't arrise?

[Mikey]

BigBill - I don't know that Colt could handle it.  I don't know if the quality of their product is still up to Mil-Spec, and unless they obtain a silencer that will allow the 1911 to function it will be a real guess as to what firm takes the contract.

I know that with the current H&K pistols used by special ops, the silencer is not H&K manufacture - I think it is either a Glock or Sig manufacture.  Whichever one it is it worked better than the one that H&K put together.  I think that whoever gets the contract for the pistol is going to have to contract with someone else for the silencer.

I could easily see Springfield getting the contract and possibly bringing in some smaller companies to manufacture some parts or for assembly/testing purposes.  I think some of the higher end civilian companies would really benefit with the gov'ts return to the 45 but it would take a mjor manufacturer to be able to comply with contractual specs.

And honestly, since Colt is almost a 'state run facility' which has had noted quality problems it will be a good test to see who takes the contract.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[1911crazy]

The only thing wrong with SA is their made in Brazil now.  I would love to see a company like Auto-Ordnance get the contract.

[Questor]

This really is quite an event. I'll be sure to keep following it. I can see no reason why the 1911 should be selected for this considering that guns of modern design are so much easier to learn to shoot and are much easier to maintain. Certainly they can be made at least as reliable.

[1911crazy]

If i was going to put out requests for a 1911a1 in 45acp it would surely be a double stack 13rd mag w/1 in the pipe (14rds).  On the other hand I would love to see a 45acp pistol like an ak47 pistol like a small modern built grease gun with 30rd mag.  Give our guys/gals some 45acp fire power.......in house to house searches it would rule.

[Questor]

I don't know that it would be accepted. I've got long hands and really prefer the Pardini with its staggered 10 round magazine, but it seems that most who use them find the grip to be too big for their comfort.  Some go so far as to remove one of the wooden side plates to make the overall grip more manageable for themselves.

[Lloyd Smale]

special forces at least the seals have been using sig .45s for a while now that would be my bet for the new gun.

[myronman3]

if it were my choice, it would be either a glock, hk, or sig.   i never did like the berettas.  ever since the problem with the slide coming off the frame and the fix they came up with, i just dont trust them.   a slide coming off could easily get you killed.  

glad to see them come to their senses.   hope they get a good one.

[unclenick]

No external safety?  I think the old grip safety must have got people bugged.  Enough clips and things have been worked out for the purpose of defeating it.  

Some years back the FBI did an ammunition evaluation in which they concluded .40 cal. was the minimum required for reliably penetrating a windshield and keeping enough of the slug intact and on trajectory to kill a driver behind it.  In the world of suicide car bomb drivers, that has to be one of the considerations.  It may also be that the 9mm round nose bullet just doesn't get the opposition's attention reliably.  First rule is to shoot the biggest round you can hit with accurately.  If you can't hit with anything accurately, then just shoot the biggest round you can so any accidental hit gets maximum credit.

Regarding a good 9mm load, if it is what you shoot best with under stress, by all means use it.  The hollow point controversy has to do with the disastrous FBI shootout in FL some years back where WW Silvertips expanded so effectively they couldn't penetrate deeply enough to hit vitals.  I can't imagine that's true of 9mm ball, but then it isn't big enough to do as much damage as .45 ball (they ought to go to truncated cone solids anyway).  Around in a circle.  Someone pointed out that a .38 HP may be supposed to expand, but a .45 won't shrink.

Nick

[1911crazy]

I read somewhere besides giving out the M14's again they were giving out the 1911's in 45acp too in Iraq and Afganistan.  I believe the 9mm didn't have the quick stopping power that the 45acp has.  We must remember we have to use nato approved 9mm ammo nothing special this is where the 45acp excells. This option of reusing the 45acp has made a demand and request for the new 1911a1's.

Now with the new developement of the 6,8 remington thats going to replace our .223 M16 uppers I hope its a good move in the power and range department too even though i like the performance of the 6mm round better. Our guys and gals deserve the best we can give them.

[lashlaruhe]

As I recall the 9mm replaceing the 45 acp was a logistics decision based on the war was thought to be fought in Europe and we would have a ready source of 9mm ammo in Europe and therefore not have to transport handgun ammo to the war. Additionally, with the Military having females with generally smaller hands or more recoil sensitive, the 9mm was given the blessing. It was never a decision based on stopping power between the two calibers. That issue was already decided with the Thompson-legarde(not spelled correctly) testing during the early 1900's.

[ras1500]

I can't recall the details, but several months ago the US Army Tank-automotive & Armaments Command in Warren, Michigan ordered a moderate quantity of Ruger semiautomatic pistols in .45ACP.

[1911crazy]

It was for our nato allies so we could all use and share the same 9mm ammo. But now why are they giving out the 45acp 1911's again?? It has to be the difference in stopping power now?  If not why switch from the 9mm to 45acp there could be no other reason to.  The 9mm isn't a good stopper as our police departments found out years ago.  They went for the firepower in the larger magazines and gave up stopping power in the process.

I remember a story years ago why the 45acp was developed, I can't remember what the country was but the people would tie sticks to their legs and charge, they were very hard to knock down and we needed a handgun that could stop them and knock them down and the 45acp did just that. I think it was the etheopeans?

[Castaway]

Big Bill, it was the Moro tribesmen in the Phillipines.  Our soldiers got tired of shooting them with a 38, especially when they didn't stop.  There was a recall for the 45 Colt Single Action Army to fill the bill in the meantime.

[1911crazy]

Thanks I remember it was some crazy people who would stop charging our guys.

[nrifenbark]

Moro tribesmen in the Phillipines:
That was the old .38 Long.  Not the .38 Special we know today.  Army pulled the .38 Long revolvers and replaced them with .45 Colt Peacemakers. Later, the .45 Auto came along.

[1911crazy]

See we got a little history why the 45acp was developed here too.

[Fireball 57]

BigBill, Thanks, for the headsup on the new pistol trials!  In an unpopular,politicized, Democratic-party led war, I had my trial-by-fire baptised history with the 45.  An earnest and motivated North Vietnamese Captain wanted to run me through with his Mosen-Nugant rifle bayonet.  I shot him, at close distance(I saw the whites of his eyes).  After patching up a grunt Marine(I'm Army) we found the enemy Captain DEAD and Bled in the grass.  I'm a BELIEVER!

[Old Griz]

:cb2: Between a 9mm FMJ and a .45 FMJ it really isn't much of a contest to me. I'd go with the .45 any day. As a matter of fact, I carry one every day. Glad to see the military is waking up. Now, if they'll just go back to the .308 . . . .

[rideage]

I can't recall the details, but several months ago the US Army Tank-automotive & Armaments Command in Warren, Michigan ordered a moderate quantity of Ruger semiautomatic pistols in .45ACP.

it was for 5000 P95's for the tank-automotive division,you can read about it right on the ruger site.P95 is the  polymer framed 9mm, for those that may not know.
jim

[TX Devil Doc]

I recently watched an episode of Guns & Ammo TV and they tested a new S&W "plastic fantastic" .45. They said it was either a contender as the new military sidearm or it was chosen as such. Can't remember exactly. All seemed to be rather impressed with this handgun.
TxJester :?