The 45acp is going military again!!!!!

[Questor]

It would be great if S&W would get the contract. With all due respect, is G&A TV ever NOT very impressed with anything new?

[wile326]

I work in Iraq and can attest to the fact that they still use the 1911. SF units have a few and marine SOCMEU(special operations capable Marine Expeditionary Unit) have .45s. In fact the marines ordered 2600 kimber 1911's as a stop gap measure. I have a magazine around here with an article about the purchase and the continued use of the 1911 as a substitude standard issue ever since the M9 was adopted. If I can find the article I will scan and post it.

[wile326]

here is a link that has info about the Marines 45 purchase.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=374

just goes to show you, you can't keep a good pistol down

[jakes10mm]

here is a link that has info about the Marines 45 purchase.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=374

just goes to show you, you can't keep a good pistol down

The author of this article lacks understanding of the US policy on rules of war.  He presents the argument that the armed forces should adopt the 9x23 over the 45acp....stating the superior stopping power of the 125gr Silvertip.  Ooops, war crimes...we don't use hollow points.  I'm not against the 9x23....I love the 38super and the 9x23 elminates the older case's shortcomings.  A military cartridge must deliver its impact quickly and not carry too much of it out the backside of the target.  Without any testing data to prove it, I'll propose that the 9x23 (small and fast) would have the same shortcomings found in the M16/AR15's .223 Remington.....namely passing through targets to quickly and not delivering an incapacitating punch.

Regarding the new Military Sidearm.....isn't H&K under US contract for the next battle rifle?  Sounds like H&K could have a clean sweep with the rifle and pistol combo.  Wonder if S&W can rechamber their new M&P pistol in 45acp???

[Grumpy Dan]

Seems I recall a few years back the FBI doing a comprehensive & exhaustive test of all .40/.45 types and settled on a the SA 1911 .45 submittal.  This was well written up in the various gun mags.  They could most likely gear up for a military changeover size order.  

As for me, I have small hands and the beauty of the 1911 is that it can fit all ranges of hands.  Maybe not perfect for the extreme sizes but functional for all.  It is also rugged and reliable as well as simple to clean and maintain.  Parts interchangeability without gunsmithing is another consideration.  I am only an average pistol marksman but I qualified expert with the issue mil-spec 1911 in 1961 USMC and every year thereafter.  If I can use it effectively just about anyone can!

Just my .02 cents worth.

Grumpy Dan

[Ray P]

"Ooops, war crimes...we don't use hollow points."

This is a little off-topic, but *is* it a war-crime to use hollow-points?
AFAIK, we are not fighting any signatory to the Geneva Convention, neither are we fighting a government recognized as such by the UN.

Besides; isn't there some sort of logic flaw with the idea that it is legal for law-enforcement to shoot a violent criminal with JHPs (some supposedly more lethal than those commercially available); but our military is restricted to FMJ?

I think the over-all feeding reliability of FMJ-RB over HPs, SWCs, etc under very adverse conditions may be more of an issue to the military than the Geneva convention.

[Lone Star]

The US military is not restricted to only non-expanding bullets, at least not by treaty.  It was the Geneva Convention of 1899 which "outlawed" the "dumdum" bullet, but the US was not a signatory.  As mentioned, that provision only applied if two signatories were at odds with each other.  It was the Hague Convention of 1907 which outlawed bullets which were "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering", whatever that means.  

A ruling by the Judge Advocate General in 1984 stated that "expanding point ammunition is legally permissable in counter-terrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another state"  Clearly there is no legally binding reason not to use expanding bullets - soft points or hollowpoints - against terrorists.  However, to inventory large quantities of two different styles of ammunition to use against two different types of adversaries would not fit the US military procurement mentality.  Easier to inventory a single type of large-diameter non-expanding ammo than two types of small-diameter ammo.  Save the expanding stuff for the SpecOps guys.

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

[myronman3]

this is why if i ever were to serve again it would be s.f.  or nuthing.  

i am too old for the bullspit conventional warfare requires.    

  if i ever have to rise to the occasion,  it will be on my terms with my rules.    heaven forbid.

[Ray P]

Nice Link!

Thanks, LoneStar!

[BamBams]

Well, at least someone in the DOD knows how to fix a mistake.  They should go with the 50 AE Desert Eagle though.

[Old Griz]

:cb2: The navy has adopted the .50 Desert Eagle. They have been designated "Emergency Replacement Anchors."  

[myronman3]

:cb2: The navy has adopted the .50 Desert Eagle. They have been designated "Emergency Replacement Anchors."  

:-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

[cbsbyte1976]

THis order for 1911s is for Marine Special forces and other Special forces units, not the regular military. This topic has been discussed many times on other boards over the past few years, and the conclusions is that the military is not dropping the Berettas anytime soon but they are adding a new firearm to the arsenal for specailzed missions.

[jro45]

I think it will be either the 10mm or the 45 ACP. Who will get the contract
I think it will be some outfit in the USA.
Doesn't the FBI use the 10mm and different branches in the Military already use the 45.

[wile326]

The FBI adopted the 10mm in the S&W 1006 they used it for a short time, then swithced to the .40 s&w The FBI HRT uses the .45, Marine special operations use the 1911, they ordered some new kimbers about 2 years ago. A few navy units issue a sig in .45 but only  a few. Some special forces units still use the 1911 or the H&K in .45  I know most troops if they can get there hands on a 1911 will use them and prefer them. I work in Iraq and can attest to the fact that there are quite a few 1911's still being used by the troops and they are prized by the soldiers and marines that use them. They prefer the larger caliber over the 9mm, when you are restricted to ball ammo, it does make a differance.

[jro45]

Has anybody seen the 50 Caliber handgun it is about the same size as the 45ACP maybe a little bigger.  It shoots [ I don't know the grains ] bullet at 800 fps. Some real knock down power.