Carry a Cop Gun???

[kjeff50cal]

Some months ago an off duty Deputy Constable was gunned down by Sheriffs Deputys as they were all after a car thief. The DC was in civies and carried a silver (stainless or chrome) pistol. The SDs carried blued pistols (Glocks or some other clone) all the Sheriffs Deputys saw was that "silver gun" called for the Constable to halt to which he turned to them and the Sheriffs opened fire.....  :shock:   . Does the type of gun you carry really "make" you as a friend or threat? I know that in this case (still beening investigated) there were mistakes made on the part of both parties but would you feel safer carrying a weapon the local LEOs ware instead of something that would feel at home in Saddams gun vault?

kjeff50cal

[Shaylex]

Does the type of gun you carry really "make" you as a friend or threat?

Simply put, no. Your actions are what "make" you as a threat. Sounds as though the off duty Officer made a bad choice. His own training should have told him the response his actions would bring.

[Dusty Miller]

Geeze, don't an ODO have enough sense to have his badge out?

[Mikey]

Dusty:  Whether he had his badge out or not, he made the fatal mistake of turning on a couple of cops when he had a gun in his hand.

The Constable should have remembered his training and complied with the officer's orders.  Dang man, you never turn on a cop with a gun in your hand.  Life ain't hollywood.  It's a tragedy but when a cop with a loaded gun pointed at you tells you to stop or put the gun down the best advice is to do as he asks.  They do have the right to shoot to defend themselves if someone turns on them with a gun in hand.  

It wasn't the color of the gun, it was his actions that got him shot.  The 'silver' gun just made it easier for the cops to see that he was carrying a pistol in hand.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[WNY_Whitetailer]

It wasn't the color of the gun, it was his actions that got him shot.  The 'silver' gun just made it easier for the cops to see that he was carrying a pistol in hand.

Sad but true...

[Sir Knight]

Some sheriff departments carry those 'silver' gun -- S&W third generation autoloaders ... after Glocks, they are still the second most popular 'cop' gun.

[Lawdog]

It wasn't the color of the gun, it was his actions that got him shot.  The 'silver' gun just made it easier for the cops to see that he was carrying a pistol in hand.

Sad but true...

I agree.  Lawdog
 

[Savage]

A deputy constable is not required to have any LE training in my state. The position of constable is an elected one, and deputies are appointed by the constable. Any officer in plain clothes had better comply with an order given by a uniformed officer QUICKLY! It's not easy to sort out the good guys from the bad guys at first glance.
Savage

[Sir Knight]

A deputy constable is not required to have any LE training in my state.

How then, do they enforce the law if they have no Law Enforcement training? It would appear to me that without some form of training, they would be prone to violating people's rights (when things can be searched, when things can be seized as evidence, etc.) and having the cases thrown out of court.

And, are they allowed to carry a gun? If so, do they do this as their right as a private citizen or in their role as a deputy constable? Because if they are carrying a gun AS A deputy constable, then they need to have some kind of firearms training. No?

I know that in PA some constables are appointed and others are elected but they all have state-wide LE authority and all of them go through at least a crash LE training course with about a week devoted to firearms procedures and another week to legal procedures.

[Cottonwood]

Unless the off duty was wearing a jacket like this or a vest with same markings which give uniform officers a clue as to who he is, it can happen as it did.

The deputy constible was off duty, he was not wearing anything that would have let anyone know he was a good guy.  In this case it cost him his life.

[CraigJS]

He should have stopped when told to do so, Id'd himself as a LEO (what ever kind), and put the piece down! If we are targets just because we're carrying a "silver" gun, there's going to be alot of problems.. Try to buy a new gun that isn't stainless. Darned hard to find blued anymore..
CraigJS

[tallyho]

I'm a little confused.

I didn't get that the OD constable had the 'silver' gun in his hand, just that he carried one. Original posting didn't indicate more than that.

If this took place in Texas, as suggested by where kjeff50cal is located, if I remember correctly Texas allows open carry (?) correct me if I'm wrong.

So all I get from the posting is that the OD was carrying a 'silver' gun and turned toward the Deputies.

So when they fixated on the silver gun, was it in his hand or on his hip?

The fact that he turned toward them instead of "halting" as would have been prudent, is a separate issue.

And if he did have a gun in his hand (whatever the color) when he turned toward them, his chances of being shot were pretty much guaranteed.

But if it was on his hip....?

[Savage]

SK,
Constable is an elected office with rather limited authority, such as in the township he was elected to. For what it's worth, the mayor is the highest ranking law enforcement officer in the city, and haven't met one yet that has any LE training. The same can be true of a Sheriff,-------he does not have to have LE training or certifications to serve! Most get some training after being elected, but it is not required! Strange world, isn't it?
Savage

[Sir Knight]

Here in PA, unless I am mistaken, while a Constable has limited authority, that authority is state wide -- thus the reason why they are referred to as "PA State Contables" and two week training is required for all new Constables with one week of annual follow-up training.

Try to buy a new gun that isn't stainless. Darned hard to find blued anymore..

Beretta offers a lot of guns that aren't stainless. I wish more of them WERE stainless due to the rust factor.

[Cottonwood]

The color of the handgun has nothing, and I mean absolutly nothing to do with this.  I personally know many LEO's that carry Stainless Semi-Auto's such as S&W 5906, Kimbers etc, as well as Glocks.  The color of a firearm has nothing in the world to do with this.

In NYC they have many units that are in civies, and for reasons of Officers, shot by other Officers they had to go to The Color of the Day arm bands, so other LEO's would know that they were a fellow cop.

Without a proper way of telling that this DC was in fact a fellow LEO, not even a badge hanging from a chain around his neck is enough to tell, when his back is facing the other officers chasing the suspect.  That is  why I posted the raid jacket above.  There are agencies that even have special colored T-Shirts that are worn on raids, so other LEO's can tell, that the person wearing it, IS one of theirs.

But the type of gun carried by the DC has nothing to do with this at all.

Just my professional opinion.

[Sir Knight]

In NYC they have many units that are in civies, and for reasons of Officers, shot by other Officers they had to go to The Color of the Day arm bands, so other LEO's would know that they were a fellow cop.

Wouldn't that give away undercover cops as cops? How does this system work? It's sounds interesting.

[Cottonwood]

They don't wear the arm bands until everyone is ready to move into action... ie the bust.  The UC's put the arm bands on so the uniform officers know who they are.

But getting back to our DC.. I did find out one thing about this.  He was a reserve DC with no full powers of arrest.  The suspect had run through an apartment complex that he was pulling a second job at.  The officer who shot and killed the RDC had no idea who he was.

Bottom line is, the RDC should not have given chase of the suspect in the first place.

[muzzleblast525]

In reference to the comment above, NO, Texas is not an open carry.  We have concealed carry in the state, and it should remain concealed.  This is for civilians, and if their gun is exposed in anyway, they can be arrested for Unlawful Carrying Weapon by CHL.  


As for training, ALL Peace Officers in the State must complete somewhere in the area of 660 hours of training before they can be commissioned.  The State issues them a license only after they have completed the police academy.  Constable is a Peace Officer, therefore, he is required to complete this training before receiving his license.

The Texas Code of Criminal Procedure states the following are Peace Officers:

Art. 2.12. Who Are Peace Officers                                            

The following are peace officers:                                            

(1) sheriffs, their deputies, and those reserve deputies who hold a
permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701,
Occupations Code;

(2) constables, deputy constables, and those reserve deputy
constables who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under
Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;

(3) marshals or police officers of an incorporated city, town, or
village, and those reserve municipal police officers who hold a
permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701,
Occupations Code;

(4) rangers and officers commissioned by the Public Safety
Commission and the Director of the Department of Public Safety;

(5) investigators of the district attorneys', criminal district
attorneys', and county attorneys' offices;

(6) law enforcement agents of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
Commission;      

(7) each member of an arson investigating unit commissioned by a
city, a county, or the state;

( officers commissioned under Section 37.081, Education Code, or
Subchapter E, Chapter 51, Education Code;

(9) officers commissioned by the General Services Commission;                

(10) law enforcement officers commissioned by the Parks and
Wildlife Commission;

(11) airport police officers commissioned by a city with a
population of more than 1.18 million that operates an airport that
serves commercial air carriers;

(12) airport security personnel commissioned as peace officers by
the governing body of any political subdivision of this state,
other than a city described by Subdivision (11), that operates an
airport that serves commercial air carriers;

(13) municipal park and recreational patrolmen and security
officers;      

(14) security officers and investigators commissioned as peace
officers by the comptroller;

(15) officers commissioned by a water control and improvement
district under Section 49.216, Water Code;

(16) officers commissioned by a board of trustees under Chapter 54,
Transportation Code;

(17) investigators commissioned by the Texas State Board of Medical
Examiners;

(18) officers commissioned by the board of managers of the Dallas
County Hospital District, the Tarrant County Hospital District, or
the Bexar County Hospital District under Section 281.057, Health
and Safety Code;

(19) county park rangers commissioned under Subchapter E, Chapter
351, Local Government Code;

(20) investigators employed by the Texas Racing Commission;                  

(21) officers commissioned under Chapter 554, Occupations Code;              

(22) officers commissioned by the governing body of a metropolitan
rapid transit authority under Section 451.108, Transportation
Code, or by a regional transportation authority under Section
452.110, Transportation Code;

(23) investigators commissioned by the attorney general under
Section 402.009, Government Code;

(24) security officers and investigators commissioned as peace
officers under Chapter 466, Government Code;

(25) an officer employed by the Texas Department of Health under
Section 431.2471, Health and Safety Code;

(26) officers appointed by an appellate court under Subchapter F,
Chapter 53, Government Code;

(27) officers commissioned by the state fire marshal under Chapter
417, Government Code;

(28) an investigator commissioned by the commissioner of insurance
under Article 1.10D, Insurance Code;

(29) apprehension specialists commissioned by the Texas Youth
Commission as officers under Section 61.0931, Human Resources Code;

(30) officers appointed by the executive director of the Texas
Department of Criminal Justice under Section 493.019, Government
Code;

(31) investigators commissioned by the Commission on Law
Enforcement Officer Standards and Education under Section
1701.160, Occupations Code;

(32) commission investigators commissioned by the Texas Commission
on Private Security under Section 1702.061(f), Occupations Code;
Text of subd. (33) as amended by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 474, Sec. 1


(33) the fire marshal, and any investigators commissioned by an
emergency services district to assist that fire marshal, under
Subchapter F, Chapter 775, Health and Safety Code;  and
Text of subd. (33) as amended by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 235, Sec. 16 and Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 930, Sec. 12


(33) the fire marshal and any officers, inspectors, or
investigators commissioned by an emergency services district under
Chapter 775, Health and Safety Code.

(34) officers commissioned by the State Board of Dental Examiners
under Section 254.013, Occupations Code, subject to the limitations
imposed by that section.