Author Topic: How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shootable?  (Read 2610 times)

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Offline entsminger

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shootable?
« on: September 07, 2005, 06:18:01 AM »
I'm building a 13 inch 1861 mortar replica from a large propane tank and  hadn't untill now considered really making it to shoot but if I did want to make it to shoot what requirements might be placed on such a gun to assure it was safe? Some gentleman suggested filling the finished tank with bronze or concrete but that would make the whole cannon very heavy, almost immovable like the origional. Do you think a cannon made from a propane tank with a proper  barrel liner would nessesitate being filled up with some substance or could it be made safe by inner bracing of some sort that would allow the finished cannon to weigh much less and therefor be transportable with out a huge crane?
  Also can someone direct me to anyone in the know who can tell me about what a proper shootable barrel liner/pipe/bore might be for a 13 inch mortar such as I'm making? Where would I get such a liner? What might it cost? Am I crazy for trying this?

   Thanks tons
   Scott

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2005, 06:44:25 AM »
The first thing you need to determine is what you would use for projectiles.  Bowling balls quickly come to mind but they are only 8.6" in diameter.  You could make an insertable sub-barrel that would fit it a 13" bore and shoot BB's but that would weigh over 400 lbs by itself.  You should have a solid support behind the insert but the rest of the space could be filled with epoxy and microballoons or urethane foam.  I don't know how thick the propane tank shell is (probably not very); it might not be strong enough to resist the recoil if the trunnions were just welded on.  You might need something directly behind the bore to transfer the recoil to the ground.

If you fill it with a plastic based compound, don't let it get hot from firing or the plastic will break down.  Another reason to wet swab between each shot.
GG
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Offline Double D

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2005, 07:47:30 AM »
For information on a barrel liner and how to construct it I suggest  you read THE MORE COMPLETE CANNONEER  By M.C. Switlik with selected excerpts from other artillery manuals
The book can be ordered from these two suppliers.
The Complete Cannoneer from Matt Switlik[/i][/url]
South Bend Replica The Complete Cannoneer

South Bend will also be able furnish you a copy of Cannons by Dean Thomas.  This is a good reference givng ball and bore diameters of the common cannons of the Civil War.

You could put a valve on the bottom out sight and a bleeder hole near the top rim and fill the tank with water for shooting.  Drain the water for transport. Your gun is still going to be heavy.

I still think the best way to do it is fill the shell with cement. A simple A frame hoist could be made to move it.  Here is a picture of the A frame windlass made for a 8 inch  mortar.  They lift the entire mortar up and back a trailer under it.



Computing the weight  of cement  in this set up is beyond my skill level, but we have some pretty sharp fellows here and they might be able to come up with it.

It's going make a funny sound when fired with a hollow tank.  It might even move around a little. You want some sort of filler to resist that and deaden the sound.

Your trunnions must definitely be attached to the liner so recoil  is absorbed by the trunnions.  If you rely on attaching to the shell you are going to get flex at the trunnions and wall, and flex through the anchoring set up of the tube.  Something will break.   George is right on about solid support behind the liner.

I agree with George about just doing a bowling ball bore.  It's plenty big and readily available.

Offline entsminger

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More questions on making it shootable
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2005, 09:41:02 AM »
Ok, say I could find a way to make zinc 12  inch balls and was going to try and shoot them as ammo. How do I know thick or strong the liner or the rest of the mortar needs to be?Are there regulations about the liner/bore or cannon construction, etc? How do people determine how strong their home made cannons need to be?I see some other cannons on this site where people have had some kind of super tough almost modern naval cannon barrels/liners made.How do I know what is strong enough for this size shell? Would the books mentioned above deal with these questions?
  My 1000 gallon propane tank ( the kind you see behind some gas stations)  is about 1/4 inch thick steel. I have a large 12 3/8 diameter 1/4 inch steel pipe I had planned to use as the bore just for looks but I guess  it would be totally inadequate for shooting ? The idea of welding the trunions to the bore sounds good as I guess the idea is to stabalize the bore so it won't warp the barrel when fired? I see how concrete filled inside would stabalize things, only it would become monsterably heavy. As I had planned for a just for looks cannon it will easily weigh 1500 to 2000lbs including carriage. I'll have to figure on how much more it would weigh full of concrete and if that's doable? Thanks for responding! The idea of it actually shooting is becoming facinating!

  Scott

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2005, 01:50:31 PM »
OK, a solid 12" diameter zinc shot would weigh about 235 lbs* (95 lbs in aluminum.)  A mortar shell should be hollow which would make the weight around 150 lbs (62 lbs in Al.)  It's virtually impossible to calculate wall thickness without knowing chamber pressure, but assuming a pressure of 20,000 psi (probably high if you use cannon grade powder [and I wouldn't use anything finer]), you should have about 3" thick walls.  Mucho heavy (at least 650 lbs.)  

Try to go with lower density shot to lower the chamber pressure.

*--Formula for calculating weight of spherical object of uniform density is 4/3 (1.33333) times pi (3.14159) (combined is 4.18879) times radius cubed times density of material.  Volume units of density must be the same as diameter units.  That is, diameter in inches must be matched with density in pounds per cubic inch or density in pounds per cubic foot must be matched with diameter in feet.
GG
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Offline rifleshooter2

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2005, 02:25:41 PM »
Another thing that you have to consider is the touch hole. You would need some type of tube that went from the outer shell to the inner barrel. This would have to be very rigid and leak proof. Id worry about it cracking and leting te powder blow into the space between the inner and outer barrel. Interisting Idea though.

Andy
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Offline Double D

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2005, 01:55:03 AM »
Scott,

You must have missed this earlier.  Here is where you find the information on how to make the liner.

THE MORE COMPLETE CANNONEER  By M.C. Switlik with selected excerpts from other artillery manuals
The book can be ordered from these two suppliers.
The Complete Cannoneer from Matt Switlik[/i][/url]
South Bend Replica The Complete Cannoneer

Offline Double D

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2005, 02:10:05 AM »
If you were making a liner for 13 in cannon the diameter of the barrel at the chamber would have to be 39 inches.  Since this is a Mortar your chamber will be smaller.

Recommended liner wall thickness is  3/8 in.  Total wall thickness of the tube is one caliber.

Switlick and the N-SSA recommend a sweated-welded breech plug.

Offline entsminger

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Rough cost of mortar liner?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2005, 06:33:21 AM »
I went right home the other day and begged my wife to get me The Complete Cannoneer for my upcoming birthday. I'm sort of unclear what Double D ment by 3/8 inch liner? From what I hearing I would need a pretty tough liner in my 13 inch mortar to shoot a 12 inch zinc mortar ball? One gentleman suggested I would need something upwards of a three inch thick seamless liner? I'm guessing that's probably true? Does anyone have any idea how much  something like a 36 inch long seamless 3 inch thick barrel liner would roughly cost? Is this something that will be very expensive? I have no idea what some of these barrel liners I see are costing.

  Scott

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 06:40:45 AM »
The 3/8" liner is for a cast iron or bronze solid barrel.  In your case, you (we) are talking about building a full strength gun inside a cosmetic wrapper.

New steel costs about a dollar a pound these days, just for a ballpark estimate.  Your project is not going to be cheap; relatively cheap versus buying a complete one, but not absolutely cheap.
GG
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Offline 12741

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13 inch mortar
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 07:03:06 AM »
why not build a bowling ball mortar from an oxygen tank and put it in your propane tank?

Offline Double D

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2005, 07:06:07 AM »
A liner is 3/8 inch wall Seamless tubing and that is a minumum.  The wall of solid material around the breech including liner should be no less than one caliber.

That  one caliber thickness doesn't apply the full length of the gun only at the breech.

The mortar is slightly different.  For Powder charge determination the powder chamber is the bore.  The Powder chamber is the breech.

The major diameter of the powder chamber in a 10 inch Seacoast mortar is 7.5 inches.  With a powder chamber that diameter the walls of the chamber should be be no less than 7.5 inches thick. The actual wall thickness of the 10 inch Seacoast Mortar is closer to 10 inches.

The portion that the ball rides in is more an expansion chamber and ball projector tube and has less to do with overall strength.  It still needs strength however.

It's all explained in the TMCC.

By the way Dictator was 13 inch and not 12 inch and the balls weighed 255 lbs which would fit George's computation for a solid zinc shot.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: 13 inch mortar
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2005, 02:04:50 PM »
Quote from: 12741
why not build a bowling ball mortar from an oxygen tank and put it in your propane tank?


12741 -
(wow a # for a name!)  WELCOME to the board!

Probably the best idea yet for putting together such a huge shootin' iron and still maintain reasonable weight!
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2005, 03:11:58 PM »
While 17,000 lbs is a lot inconvenient, you should have some weight in this thing to keep it relatively in place when it is fired.

By the way, a 13" zinc solid would weight around 300 lbs.  Peterson (Round Shot and Rammers, Notes on Ordnance of the American Civil War) lists a 13" shell at 220 lbs.
GG
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Offline entsminger

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2005, 04:06:41 AM »
Boy, thanks so much for all the feed back on my home made mortar. It's all very helpfull but at the same time I must be thick headed because I'm still just as confused as what to do? Some of this stuff just flys over my head. It sounds like to make this mortar shootable it would be best to fill my tank with some kind of filler like concrete, bronze or something to stabalize it's structure and rigidity so the tank wouldn't warp and to keep it from bouncing when shooting etc. Also it should have some kind of tough ,thick, seamless barrel liner. This area is still fuzzy to me. If we are talking about what I think we are I'm guessing it would probably need a very expensive naval battle ship gun type liner to shoot big 12 or 13 inch zinc shells? Something like this has got to be very costly ( $1000 or more?)so I'm thinking this is where any attempt to make this mortar shoot will probably end. I'm not a man with much money but I can take some cheap scrap metal and do wonders with it.  
   The Idea of using a oxygen tank for a bowling ball mortar liner is good except that someday when my son goes to work also ( he's 14) and we somehow save any money we hope to buy an 8 inch mortar like Hern's. Besides, the idea of shooting something as big a 13 inch just facinates me more than an 8 inch. But for now I'm just gonna fiddle with making a big 13 ( or 12 3/8 if I go that reduced way  if you remember)incher. Thanks guys.

  Scott in Virginia

Offline Double D

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2005, 05:35:37 AM »
Taking on a full size Dictator mortar is an ambitious project.  It is not for the feint at heart, besides a bit expensive to operate.

Is this your first cannon project?   If so try something a bit more conservative, like a tin can mortar.  Plenty big for most.

You might also go to Ft. Shenandoah, near Winchester VA for the Fall Skirmish October 5-9, 2005.  Here is a link to there website http://www.n-ssa.org/  Click on the   "For skirmisher" link under Information for details on the Fall Skirmish.  Friday is Mortar day and you can see some pretty neat guns.

Offline entsminger

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Thanks , but time to go back to origional plan
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2005, 01:28:16 AM »
I went to the Fort Shanendoah shoot a while back and it was cool! However the small mortars don't interest me in the least.  8, 10 and 13 inch mortars would be a minumum. I think for now I'll just go back to making my mortar just for looks as I had planned from the beginning. I will have a tough time even affording that , much less spending thousands  just for a barrel tube not to mention all the other stuff needed like the carriage etc,etc. Thanks for all the input!!

  Scott

Offline entsminger

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Back again with a few questions
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2005, 05:52:02 AM »
Well my son urged me to keep trying to make this ( hollow) 13 inch mortar shootable so here I am with a few more questions if you'll oblige? I have ordered the complete cannoneer but probably won't see it for weeks? It seems that a zinc 13 inch ball would weigh about what an iron ball would weigh so a barrel that will shoot them would need to be very thick to be safe? 3 or 4 inches thick at least I'm guessing made of seamless steel which I still haven't found a price for but would guess one to be well over $1000? So what if I could find or make a 13 inch ball that weighs much less like a hollow zinc ball or something that weighs much less like a bowling ball but bigger? I guessing the barrel/bore would not have to be nearly as thick/strong? Is there a way to make Hollow zinc balls as big a 13 inch or Is there something else I could shoot that big and round like a cannon ball that would require a much thinner barrel wall like I see on some of these bowling ball mortars?

  Scott

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2005, 09:27:07 AM »
A solid aluminum 13" shot would weigh about 115 lbs; making it hollow with a 9" core would take the weight down to around 50 lbs, about the same as a 13" bowling ball.  If you limited yourself to launching projectiles of this nature, you could get away with a thinner barrel tube.  But the breech plug is still going to have to be a massive piece of steel.  Do you have machining capabilities?  Someone is going to have to turn a 15" diameter piece of steel to make this.

Where are you located?
GG
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Offline entsminger

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15 inch HMMMMM
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2005, 01:45:03 PM »
I live in Arlington VA. but I wish I lived out in Wisconsin . Seems to be a heaven of big guns and guys who can make them. So do you roughly think I would need around a 15 inch machined tube/bore with a machined/rounded inside breech? Do you have any idea what a piece of 15 inch seamless ( I"m guessing) might cost? I have no machining capabilities or mills but am good at welding . I'm just wondering if this thing will cost me a fortune. ?

 Scott

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2005, 03:08:35 PM »
Even 30+ years ago when I lived in the DC area, it would have been a task to find any manufacturing facilities; now must be even harder.  Last time I was there, they had turned the RF&P yard into a shopping mall.
 
You need to find a dealer in surplus steel and see what he has in his yard.  This is definitely a project you don't want to have to buy new for.  The place I usually patronize (in So. California) may have something you could use but it would have to get back there somehow.  You also need to find a machine shop who can do the work you need and a foundry to cast the aluminum shot.  Get out your Yellow Pages and see what you can find.  See if there are any cannon shooters in the vicinity and inquire of them.  At least you don't live in Maryland.
GG
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Offline entsminger

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Still trying to understand?
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2005, 08:31:42 AM »
I'm trying to understand this so please bear with me. So someone will have to turn a piece of 15 inch solid steel to make this barrel that will shoot a hollow 13 inch aluminum ball. Do you mean they will need to mill,  bore out,  ream or drill out in some way the 13 inch bore from a solid steel piece of 15 inch ( probably seamless)  tubing 36 inches long and have a rounded breech? If so ,can you please give me a rough guess what you might think the material and labor if done in some shop might cost to make such a barrel tube. I really need to know if this is going to be more than I can ever expect to afford?

  Thanks
  Scott

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2005, 09:55:31 AM »
No, you won't have to bore the whole barrel from solid; you should be able to find a piece of "tubing" that is close to what you want.  But  if you make the mortar this way, you will need to turn a large shorter piece for a breech plug and in some way join the two.  Look at the golf ball mortar contest entry posts for one way.  Another would be to butt weld the tube to the breech plug, although this requires quality welding using known materials to produce a joint that is confidence inspiring.

There is no way around expense and weight when you are making a 13" mortar.  I would consider altering the bore diameter if you find a piece of tubing that is close but not exact.  Since you will have the shot made to order, they can be made to any diameter.
GG
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Offline entsminger

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where to look for pipe?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2005, 02:54:38 AM »
Thanks so much for helping me out GGaskill! It is great that you are taking the time to answer my questions. I would be lost with out some responce from you guys!
  Weight on this project doesn't concern me but if we are talking in the range of $1000 just for a bore tube I may be out of luck? My wife won't allow that.
  Should I be looking in a scrap /junk yard for the 15 inch diameter 2 or 3 inch thick seamless pipe of should I be looking for some steel manufacturer? I looked at a local junk yard but all they have is the pipe I got for the non-shootable barrel which is roughly 1/4 to 3/8 inch thick. Any suggestions where to look?

  Scott

Offline Double D

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2005, 03:39:05 AM »
You do not need a liner  2 or 3 inch thick liner wall.  3/8 is fine.

What you do need is a section for the powder chamber that is  3 times the diameter of you powder chamber.

Offline entsminger

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still confused
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2005, 04:47:15 AM »
Double D , I know this thread is long so I'm wondering if are you remembering that this cannon will essentially be hollow but with some major internal bracing/welding to make the bore stable? I must be thick headed as I'm still confused. On one hand I hear I need a very thick 2 or 3 inch thick barrel liner and then some say 3/8 is enough?Will the complete cannoneer book explain all this? Will it go into how thick a stand alone pipe needs to be to shoot different weighted balls?

  Scott

Offline Double D

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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2005, 01:01:05 PM »
Yes I do indeed remember that you are planning on making your mortar to be hollow.  I still say fill it full of cement or sand or something solid.   I also understand why you don't want to do that.

None the less the liner does not need to be thicker than  3/8 seamless tubing.  

Excert from National Safety Rules and Procedures for Shooting Muzzleloading Artillery, as adapted by the American Artillery Association
Quote
General Information
The following safe shooting procedure presumes the crew is firing projectiles with a muzzleloading artillery piece made (or altered) to modern safety standards. (If firing blanks skip Step VII and see Safety Rule 9.) The bore should be lined with seamless steel tubing with a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness and a yield strength of 85,000 psi or greater. The breechplug should be threaded and pinned; welded and pinned breechplugs can be equally strong but require expert installation by competent manufacturers. Sand cored bores are not recommended for shooting. The vent should be drilled in a threaded copper bolt similar to original cannon vent liners of the 1840-1865 period) in order to provide an unbroken passage through the casting and the liner, into the bore.


And

The rules of The North-South Skirmish Association This is a large PDF file and will take a few minutes to load on dial up.

Quote
PG 67 10.2 ELIGIBILITY All reproduction barrels must be made of iron, steel or bronze. All reproduction barrels and those original barrels failing inspection must be lined with a bore liner of extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness. Figure 10.1 The liner must be closed at the breech end with a steel plug, sweat-fitted into the liner and welded. The breech plug must have a radius of at least 25 percent of the bore radius and be at least 1 inch thick at its thinnest point...No reproduction barrel shall be approved after March 1, 1986, which does not have one caliber's thickness of metal surrounding the bore at the breech.


You must keep in mind that unlike the cannon,  the breech in the mortar is the powder chamber.  The portion of the mortar where the ball rides is larger and is nothing more than an expansion chamber and ball projecter.  

Make your powder chamber and slide it in the end of your liner.  Weld it in place per specifications and slide that whole assembly into a heavier cheaper piece of seamed pipe.  

Using basic measurements as an example, here's what I mean. Using a bore diameter of 13 inches, you liner would be  13 3/4 outside diameter.

Using just the liner itself you could have a powder chamber 4.5 inches in diameter.

With the liner slipped into a sleeve surrounded with cement  the powder chamber could be even larger diameter, just as long as the walls were one breech caliber  thick

Some thing you haven't mentioned is if you are aware of how much powder this thing is going to use.

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2005, 03:09:20 PM »
With no intent to make this a personal quarrel and the caveat that I am an engineering school dropout, I beg to differ with the opinion that a 3/8" thick wall would be adequate for this application. 

The AAA/NSSA barrel rules are talking about a 3/8 liner inside a cast iron or bronze tube which provides extra strength that would not be present in the design under discussion unless the space between the inner cylinder and outer cylinder is filled with some kind of material of significant strength.  As is usual in discussions of this type, we are missing the critical parameter of chamber pressure and thus are limited to speculations based on more or less relevant pressure figures from previous tests. 

SO, assuming a filled one pound charge chamber (volume 24.25 cubic inches) and a chamber pressure of 20,000 psi (taken from the M. Switlik tests of 25 years ago), and using the thin-wall cylinder stress equation from efunda, the first inch of the tube would experience approximately 3650 psi resulting in a stress of 63,000 psi.  A filled two pound charge chamber would give 7350 psi pressure and 127,000 psi stress, which is clearly way too much.

Now these calculations are about as simplified as possible but  increased complexity only makes small changes in the results.  So another step in the design process needs to be taken, namely deciding what the powder charge is going to be.

By the way, the tensile strength of concrete is very low, less than 1000 psi.
GG
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Offline Double D

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2005, 04:05:09 PM »
Quote from: GGaskill
The AAA/NSSA barrel rules are talking about a 3/8 liner inside a cast iron or bronze tube which provides extra strength that would not be present in the design under discussion unless the space between the inner cylinder and outer cylinder is filled with some kind of material of significant strength.


Exactly!  

But what you keep missing is that in the mortar the powder chamber is the breech and only the breech requires the one caliber wall thickness,  the rest of the barrel does not.   The powder chamber is smaller than the bore that hold the ball.  The ball holding bore is an expansion chamber and projector tube.  

When fired the pressures goes up in the breech/chamber area and decreases as it goes down the bore pushing the bal ahead of it. .  If it  pressure was constant until the ball was expelled barrels would have to be straight cylinders to hold the pressure.

To hold cost down the liner,  could also go inside another cheaper seamed pipe to give it the 1 caliber thickness at breech.  

Now if you have a 4.5 inch powder chamber in breech plug with 4.5 inch thick solid steel walls that is in a 80,000 psi,  13 3/4 inch 3/8 inc wall seamless barrel, that is in a cement filled liner that has 12 5/8 inch thick walls contained inside a  1/2 thick steel pressure tank, how much pressure does it take to burst that.

Since the breech plug with chamber by itself is sufficent in size all the rest is just decoration.

Offline GGaskill

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How to make my hollow 13 inch mortar shoota
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2005, 07:16:39 PM »
Au contraire.   8)  I fully recognize that the chamber resists the full pressure and needs to be thicker walled than the tube.  However, the tube still has to resist significant pressure as the gas expands and pushes the shot up the tube.  As the shot moves up the tube the first inch, the volume of the gas expands from that of the chamber to the chamber plus the volume of the bore now occupied by expanding gas.  PV=pv, meaning the initial pressure times the initial volume equals the later pressure times the later volume.  The pressure obviously decreases as the volume increases.  That's where the numbers 3650 psi and 7350 psi come from (and also assuming a 20,000 psi chamber pressure) for the first inch of tube.  Clearly as the volume increases as the shot moves up the bore, the pressure continues to decrease and, therefore, the stress.
 
If we limit the charge to one pound, 3/8" would be very close to the minimum thickness with a very small cushion for unknown variables.  The original used a 20 lb charge.  What are we going to use in this one?
 
OK, I noticed a mistake in my calculations above (used only the volume of the bore freed by the moved shot instead of that PLUS the chamber volume.)  Recalculating with the proper volume gives 3100 psi bore pressure for a one pound chamber and 6200 psi for a two pound chamber.  The resulting hoop stresses are 53,500 psi and 107,100 psi.  Remember the only part of the bore exposed to these stresses is the first inch or so, not all the way to the muzzle (for a straight bore length of 24", the muzzle pressure would be about 150 psi and the hoop stress about 2600 psi.)  But that first inch also contains the connection to the breech plug.
GG
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