Author Topic: Traditional Pressure Indicators and Magazine Writers  (Read 2235 times)

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Offline Lone Star

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« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2005, 12:44:10 PM »
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OK no need to get nasty.....If anyone answers for the questions I have raised please speak up without deflamitory comments.  
First off, I was not necessarrily refering to you personally, but to the "usual suspects" here who profess to have all the answers.  The conspiracy comment had to do with the many posts on this topic in past threads, where some posters do seem to believe that the manuals are purposely reducing the data just to allow the gun makers to  sell new high performance cartridges.  That is factual, I've seen it posted more than once.  I had hoped to head off that kind of post here, but it seems I elicited a different but no more productive response from you.  I meant you no disrespect.

It appears that GB is right, not enough reading and thinking is going on in this thread, just defensiveness and arguments without a 'global' view on the subject.  I'm outa this one.   :D

Offline sprest22

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« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2005, 02:20:27 PM »
Are there any powder companies or ammunition producers that can pressure test your handloads for you,if you send some of your loads to them?

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2005, 05:50:20 PM »
Can they? Yes. Will they? Not unless you have connections.

White Laboratories is the place to get this done. Nope I do not have contact info but suspect you could google them up.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2005, 07:57:17 PM »
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It's a fact that unless you have pressure meansuring equipment and use it to measure the loads you put together using your components in your firearms and compare it to known standards you really are just guessing at what pressures you're getting. It WILL NOT be the same as the book data pressure tested results. Might be higher. Might be lower. But it won't be the same.

That's about all I've really been trying to get across.



I agree 100 %

One main problem with Gun Writers is they love contraversy...and when they don't have anything really usefull...( happening more and more each month) they deceide to stir up sales a bit with something they pull out of their backsides.


All major bullet companies and all powder companies will tell you never substitute 1 component...never deviate from their posted data...don't extrapolate data from one companies bullets for another...and using their data with all the correct components...reduce 5% and work up.

There will always be differences between different guns...and no 2 guns will shoot the same exact velocity with the same load...they will be close...but the average will be different...

Testing equipment is readily available and prices are reasonable...and when you can test a SAMMI approved factory load for a base measurement...then test your own...would seem to me to be the best way available...plus...you can still measure your cases and see for your self...

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

This is a very good article and some good explanations of pressures...

http://www.steyrscout.org/intballi.htm

Mac
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Offline EsoxLucius

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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2005, 08:40:24 AM »
I don't think the message is that we should not watch for the classic signs of excessive pressure as we work up loads.  We should because if they show up they are an indication of a problem.  However, if they don't show up before one reaches either the maximum charge or velocity (velocity measured with a chronograph adjusted for muzzle distance from the instrument and differences in barrel length between the test barrel and your barrel) of a published load one can be somewhat assured that the subsequent load is safe in their rifle.  Most loads in reloading manuals are produced in SAAMI spec chambers (tighter than production chambers), so if one arrives at a load that does not exceed either the maximum charge or velocity of a published load and nothing else untward shows up, its probably OK.  People have been getting by with this approach for a long time.  A chronograph is useful, besides just measuring muzzle velocity, in watching for spikes or excessive percentage increases between workup increments.  However, even this is just an indicator there might be a problem.  Measuring case heads or expansion rings is not reliable but is sensitive enough to be used as another indicator along with the classic excessive pressure signs, but only if the proper procedures and equipment are used.  I also think that it is generally accepted that if one changes a component (bullet, brass or primer of the same specification, but of a different configuration or manufacture) of a published load that the starting load should reduced by 5-8% and the load then worked up watching for signs of excessive pressure or velocity.  In addition, loads should be worked up again when using powder of a different lot.  Just some ideas, good discussion.  Regarding the excellent observations and points made by Graybeard, it is going to take some time for the reloading sources to catch up with the science.
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Offline bluebayou

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« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2005, 09:21:00 PM »
Okay, new guy's input here:  why would you deviate from the manual anyway?  If you have a formula for a Nosler 120 grain bullet then why would you assume that another 120 grain bullet with a different ogive and therefore different headspace, and therefore different pressure curve would be safe.  Do people think that they know better than the company who makes the bullet?  Okay, human nature wants to squeeze a little more boom out of the bullet, but why did you buy the manual anyway?  I have heard the "lawyer safe" theory of conservative loads hundreds of times.  If you subsitute an ingredient in a recipe you get a different product.  It is that simple.

Handirifle:  I feel your pain on the 280 question.

Offline Haywire Haywood

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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2005, 02:42:54 AM »
Quote from: bluebayou
another 120 grain bullet with a different ogive and therefore different headspace...


Rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim, rimless bottleneck cases headspace on the shoulder of the case, and belted cases headspace on the belt.  The bullet has zilch to do with headspace.  And unless I am mistaken, the ogive doesn't affect the pressure curve.  The bearing length does.

Ian
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Offline bluebayou

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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2005, 07:38:31 AM »
Okay, point taken on the headspace.  How about just "distance to the lands" being substituted.

Offline longwinters

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« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2005, 10:31:34 AM »
Nosler lists the same loads for all (example) 140 grain bullets that they make.  The ogive measurements are different from a Ballistic Tip to an Accubond to a partition etc... But they give the same info for loading to SAMMI.  So their recipies are not exact.  But they do say that they are safe ie work up your loads. I think there are a lot of rules but just as many exceptions.  Kind of like the English language in America.

Long
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Offline Slamfire

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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2005, 09:32:44 PM »
Actually it is a classic problem. Tryin' to apply scientific standards to an art form. :-D
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2005, 06:01:32 PM »
I've been watching this thread since it started and held off making any comments until I could see where it was going.

Back in the mid-60s, I worked as a lab tech in a firearms lab that was affiliated with the Dept of Justice. We tested every current production firearm and every current production type of factory ammunition in both handguns and rifles. The task was to develop a data base that could be used by investigators to determine crime scene information, much like the CSI of today. It took a crew of engineers and technicians two years to complete the task. At the end of testing, all team members concluded the information was nearly worthless.

We found the same lot of ammo fired from different guns gave dramatically different results. Likewise, the using the same gun with different ammo gave different results. There were just too many variables for conclusive results.

A good example was temperature, not the ambient temperature but the temperature of the rifle's chamber.  Though safe in a cold chamber, that same load could go off the charts when the chamber got hot. Another interesting pressure problem dealt with muzzle position. When powder didn't fill the case enough, the gun became "position sensitive". We found as the powder laid in the case, the surface exposed to the primer had more to do with pressure than the actual grain weight. There are dozens of other variables such as different brands of powder and different lots within that same brand, bullet seating depth, bullet design, cases (sometimes different even with the same headstamp), and primers. Then couple those variables with chamber, throat,  bore dimensions, barrel length and other gun parameters and you get a near infinite set of combinations. Keep in mind, this was factory ammo where the manufacturers had way more testing capability than any reloader today.

It's no wonder bullet and powder manufacturers want to keep the pressures under control. It's bad for their business if someone should blow up a gun based on their loading data. I could just imagine the cumulative effect if you just happened to stumble on the wrong combination.

I started reloading when I worked for DOJ and have been doing it every since (40 years). I take a scientific approach by first finding the powder that best meets my needs, then using established data to work up loads. The biggest single mistake most reloaders make is trying to use one or two powders for all their loading applications. There's a reason why powder companies make so many powders with different burn rates. Likely, one will be superior with accuracy and velocity while keeping the chamber pressure below dangerous levels. That same powder might not be worth a hoot in another cartridge or even a different bullet. The second mistake is pushing the envelope. As others have stated; if your gun isn't powerful enough, buy a bigger one. There's nothing wrong with trying to achieve best performance but don't try to get 22-250 velocities out of a 223.

I hope this thread continues with good advice from others. These are not "rules" we are dealing with, they are good common sense precautions. Yes, I've been known to go over the limit a few times but  the will to live brought me back on track. I hope others make the same decision before they experience a kaboom.
GLB

Offline John Y Cannuck

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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2005, 01:47:09 PM »
Given all of the above, and having read those articles myself, I have to say, that as I have no pressure equipment, I don't have a lot of choice.
If I see traditional pressure sign I plan to BACK OFF.
I always have. I can see that you're saying that traditional sign may
A: Be already way too high.
or
B: be caused by other unrelated factors.
But It's all I have, and I fully intend to respect it's age old tradition.  :D
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