Bullet weight vs.energy ...ammo section did

[Jeff-B]

im looking at remingtons pdf graph showing bullet ballistics and i notice that more (heavier ) bullet doesn't necessarily mean more energy at equal ranges . heres a great example ....in 30-06 using remington factory loads and ballistics....
 
                      220 grs.               180 grs.              150 grs.
                      core-lokt sp          core-lokt sp         core-lokt psp  
 
muzzle            2837 ft.lbs.           2913 ft.lbs.          2820 ft.lbs
100yds            2216                    2203                   2281
200yds            1708                    1635                   1827
300yds            1301                    1192                   1445
400yds             988                      858                    1131
500yds             758                      625                      876
 
 with the exception of the 17 ft;lbs. difference at muzzle even the 150 grain beats the 220 consistently...why is that? these are all similar bullet designs.
 if you throw in a 150 grs scirocco bonded for fun (totaly different bullet design) you start at 2820 and end at 1246 at 500 yds....over %50 more energy at 500 yds than the big 200.(not that i would try a 500 yd shot at a animal at this point in my shooting ability)
 i thought bigger bullets were for bigger game but this seems to tell a different story . im sure im missing something...could someone explain it to me please?
               thanks

[ms]

Speed :wink:

[Graybeard]

Yup velocity be the answer pure and simple. Paper energy as I call it cuz I have no use for it as a measure of effectiveness on game uses the square of velocity to mulitply times bullet weight. Thus velocity is the primary component of the paper energy number.

[Ramrod]

Jeff-B, Graybeard is absolutely correct. Whoever told you that foot-pounds of energy=killing power either did not have a clue, or was out and out lying to you. Here is my favorite example, from that same Remington chart you have. The 50 grain bullet from the .220 swift has almost the exact same muzzle energy as the 405 grain .45-70 slug. Which one do you think is the better killer on really big game?

By the way, you are comparing 220 grain round nose slugs with 150 grain pointed bullets, further skewing the energy results in favor of the lighter bullet. But 180-200 grain pointed bullets are the proper long range medicine for the '06 on big game. The 150's are good long range deer bullets, nothing more. The 220 round nose will kill anything in North America at closer range.

[kombi1976]

I guess the whole issue is that while the bullets may hit with the same energy, can they actually retain that energy? :|
How can you expect a 55gn bullet to be able to retain the energy against a 250lb animal?
As Ramrod said a 300gn bullet is much more capable of continuing onward because of it's greater momentum.
It's the very reason why the 375 H&H was declared the minimum cartridge for dangerous game in Africa.
A 257 Wby Mag doubtlessly has tremendous power and can fling a 120gn bullet at amazing speed and when it hits it will definitely have superior initial impact.
But the 120gn bullet can't continue to punch through heavy sinew and bone in the same way a 300gn .375 cal bullet does and it tends to have a more explosive effect, both because most .25 cal bullets aren't designed for dangerous game and because the velocity that they hit puts enormous forces on a bullet making it more susceptable to less controlled expansion, particularly when trying to penetrate thick skin and heavy sinew and bone.
The bigger cal also leaves a larger wound channel.

[Ramrod]

momentum!

kombi1976 has hit the nail on the head.
Bullet penetration plays a large part in killing power.

[Jeff-B]

thanks folks....i appreciate the speedy replies . i knew the numbers wern't telling the whole story and i thank y'all for filling in the blanks. i in no way expected the smaller bullets to be more powerful but the numbers looked skewed................... any.....thanks again

[kombi1976]

No probs.
Now consider this.
Let's say you get a small cal bullet and make it nice and heavy, like the 160gn 6.5 cal projectiles.
Now you have all that mass bunched up in a narrow column behind a small impact point.
It acts like a needle and has tremendous penetration.
Mind you, if it doesn't expand correctly at the right point it may as well be accupuncture.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

weight vs. velocity

BOTH!

Pick somethin' heavy and fast and just cream 'em.

Part of what you were observing in your numbers is the effect of Ballistic Coefficient, or the aerodynamics of the different bullets.  You'll note that when comparing two bullets of similar shape (sp), the heavier bullet (220)quickly outpaced the lighter one (180).  But with the 150, you introduced another variable, the "psp", or pointy bullet.  The 150 doesn't slow down as much because of its point.  Thus the speed is still high.

Big and heavy will get the job done.  The main purpose that high velocity serves is to obtain FLAT TRAJECTORY.  That takes the guesswork out of range estimation.  Since the bullet zips along so fast, it doesn't matter if your range estimation was off by 25 yards, it will still strike the vitals.

The technology to kill buffalo at 500 yards was around just prior to the Civil War.  But the bullet's path resembled something like one of MacDonald's arches.  That meant, that if your range estimate was off by 15 yards, you either wounded or completely missed the animal.  

The wonder of .30-06 velocities is that you have a rifle that is one step closer to idiot-proof.  The greenhorn from the big city can simply aim at the center of the animal's chest and whether the critter is 30 yards or 300 yards, the bullet will hit the boiler room.  Our forefathers thought the .30-30 was a technological marvel when it had a point blank range of 200 yards.  They weren't necessarily amazed at it's ability to kill, a .50 caliber round ball could do that just as well.

[kombi1976]

weight vs. velocity

BOTH!

Pick somethin' heavy and fast and just cream 'em.

Mummy, the buffalo is dead but there's a big raw piece of bloody mush where my shoulder used to be......  :cry:   :lol:

[gohip2000]

im looking at remingtons pdf graph showing bullet ballistics and i notice that more (heavier ) bullet doesn't necessarily mean more energy at equal ranges . heres a great example ....in 30-06 using remington factory loads and ballistics....
 
                      220 grs.               180 grs.              150 grs.
                      core-lokt sp          core-lokt sp         core-lokt psp  
 
muzzle            2837 ft.lbs.           2913 ft.lbs.          2820 ft.lbs
100yds            2216                    2203                   2281
200yds            1708                    1635                   1827
300yds            1301                    1192                   1445
400yds             988                      858                    1131
500yds             758                      625                      876
 
 with the exception of the 17 ft;lbs. difference at muzzle even the 150 grain beats the 220 consistently...why is that? these are all similar bullet designs.
 if you throw in a 150 grs scirocco bonded for fun (totaly different bullet design) you start at 2820 and end at 1246 at 500 yds....over %50 more energy at 500 yds than the big 200.(not that i would try a 500 yd shot at a animal at this point in my shooting ability)
 i thought bigger bullets were for bigger game but this seems to tell a different story . im sure im missing something...could someone explain it to me please?
               thanks

Yeah, Energy isn't everything.  in my opinion, energy applies more to thin light skinned animals down to varmint.  when you get to bigger heavier animals, momentum is a more accurate portrailal of a bullets potential, next to constuction of corse.  you will find that the slower moving projectile with more weight will have more momentum than a slightly faster lighter bullet and will penatrate deeper.  as far as the heavier bullet shedding velocity/energy quicker than the lighter one, usually a heavier bullet in the same caliber will retain it's velocity longer, but if the 150 gr bullet shape is different, say a boat tail or sharper point and less wind resistant, it will shed velocity less quickly.

[Slamfire]

Jeff-B, Graybeard is absolutely correct. Whoever told you that foot-pounds of energy=killing power either did not have a clue, or was out and out lying to you. Here is my favorite example, from that same Remington chart you have. The 50 grain bullet from the .220 swift has almost the exact same muzzle energy as the 405 grain .45-70 slug. Which one do you think is the better killer on really big game?

By the way, you are comparing 220 grain round nose slugs with 150 grain pointed bullets, further skewing the energy results in favor of the lighter bullet. But 180-200 grain pointed bullets are the proper long range medicine for the '06 on big game. The 150's are good long range deer bullets, nothing more. The 220 round nose will kill anything in North America at closer range.

Yes but the 48 grain .220 Swift loading would pierce the armor plating on a half track, try that trick with your .45-70.  :twisted:

[kombi1976]

Jeff-B, Graybeard is absolutely correct. Whoever told you that foot-pounds of energy=killing power either did not have a clue, or was out and out lying to you. Here is my favorite example, from that same Remington chart you have. The 50 grain bullet from the .220 swift has almost the exact same muzzle energy as the 405 grain .45-70 slug. Which one do you think is the better killer on really big game?

By the way, you are comparing 220 grain round nose slugs with 150 grain pointed bullets, further skewing the energy results in favor of the lighter bullet. But 180-200 grain pointed bullets are the proper long range medicine for the '06 on big game. The 150's are good long range deer bullets, nothing more. The 220 round nose will kill anything in North America at closer range.

Yes but the 48 grain .220 Swift loading would pierce the armor plating on a half track, try that trick with your .45-70.  :twisted:

Sheesh, do the deer you hunt drive armored half tracks??? :shock:
I'll have to watch out for roos in APCs next time I do a cull.  :roll:

[Slamfire]

No they don't but it does demonstrate something about total energy and penetration, I just can't figure out what.  :grin: I don't hunt deer with either although my smoke pole .50 caliber does pretty good loaded with 75 grains of FFg.  :lol:

[Ramrod]

Yes, guys, it is quite an interesting conundrum. High velocity jacketed bullts do penetrate steel better than lower velocity rounds. According to my own informal tests, the higher the velocity, the more the penetration. This seems to be the same as the published findings I have seen. On the other hand, when it comes to flesh and blood, things do a turn-about. The higher velocity jacketed bullets tend to explode, and not penetrate. And a low velocity lead slug penetrates very well. The harder the lead, the better the penetration, velocity be damned. 'Splains why the muzzleloaders still work as well as anything at the closer ranges. Velocity gets you almost nothing, other than flatter trajectory.

[tuck2]

Some of the old jacketed bullets  would not hold up when fired from the new crop of mag rifle velocities. The bullets would expand and not penertrate well. The new Barns and the old Nosler bullets will  as well as other new bullets. The new 165 Gr bullets out of an 06 is good for any game except for the big browns.