Is the 450 marlin to much for whitetails

[Swampman]

I did

[Coyote Hunter]

There's nothing you can do with the .300 Winchester that you can't do just as well with the .30-06 if you're a hunter that is.

Of course there is, and to claim otherwise is to suggest “1 = 2”.

Every bullet has an optimum operating window that includes both maximum and minimum velocities.  The size of the windows vary by bullet design.  Good, premium bullets eliminate my concerns about “too fast”, but “too slow” is always a concern.

What the .300 WM can do is deliver a given bullet abut 100-150 yards further than the .30-06 with a given amount of retained velocity and energy.  For a given range it can also deliver heavier bullets with the same or more energy and velocity as a .30-06 can do with lighter bullets.  This may not be important to you but that does not change the facts.

Is the extra thump of a .300 WM always needed?  Obviously not.  Is it sometimes useful?  Obviously so.  

While I’ve taken more elk with a .30-06 than with my .300 WM, if I had to choose one to hunt elk with for the rest of my life the .300 WM would get the nod.  That extra 100-150 yards  useful range or additional thump at a given range can make the difference between taking a shot or having to pass and it can make the difference between dropping an animal where it stands or a nasty tracking or packing job.

Is a person less of a “hunter” because they choose a .300 WM over a .30-06?  No – the choice of weapon makes no difference to their hunting skills.  

You seem to subscribe to the theory that a good hunter “can always get closer”, which is nonsense.  A hunter can always go home empty-handed, but it is not always possible to get closer.  Anyone that claims otherwise either hasn’t hunted much or is just being dishonest.

[Coyote Hunter]

I guess all you fellars that have a 300 oughta just get rid of em. Lol.

My two .30-06's will go long before my .300 WM.

Funny thing, I've found I can easily download my .300 WM to .30-06 or even .308 Win velocities and recoil levels but I just haven't figured out a way to load the .30-06 up to .300 WM levels...

I guess some folks think that, because they can't handle a .300 WM, the cartridge is without merit.  I think they're breathing too much swamp gas...

[Swampman]

Most folks think they can handle any rifle.  I know I can and have.  Most folks I try to work with are terrible shots with both rifle & pistol.  Very few of them can handle anything above a 7mm-08 in a rifle or a 9mm in a pistol.

The 300 Winchester is too much rifle for most hunters.  They can't handle it but their egos tell them they can.  The 450 Marlin & the .45-70 are great deer cartridges.  I put them in the same class as the .30-30 & .35 Remington.

[rex6666]

Morn'in Rex6666,

The 300 win mag is a great round, which I have used for years.

One of the main things is, never let it hurt you and it will never be a problem

When shooting from the bench, I use a sand bag between me and the rifle even at the level of a .270.

Then for practice I use reduced loads with light bullets and there is never a recoil induced problem.

My wife is a sometimes shooter/hunter, and as such would not like or put up with recoil.  For that reason I use 100 or 110 grain bullets with a reduced load of the PROPPER kind of powder and she shoots without pain or strain.

Before hunting season, I make sure the rifle is properly sighted in and the shot or two she takes at game, with "hunting" ammo, is never felt.

The one very important thing which you need to keep in mind with the use of rifles in the class of the 300s is BULLET QUALITY!

Use of bullets of less then premimum quality, such as the Nosler Partition for example, in any high velocity rifle can lead to a lot of meat loss and the lower price for such lesser bullets is false economy at best.

Until I can come up with a rifle such as a 45/70 for cast bullet hunting, my 300win mag is my go to hunting rifle for the whitetails, elk, moose and bear I may have the oppertunity to hunt close to home.

With the 300 and a premimum bullet, I am never over or under gunned.

My current 300, a RUGER Hawkeye, has accounted for 4 whitetails during the last two seasons and there is no reason not to use it again, that is providing a 45/70 doesn't come to live here.

Keep em coming

CDOC

HI Darrel
the question has nothing to do with anyone needing a shooting lesson
what should have said was "why would anyone need or want a 300 win mag.
or any mag to hunt whitetail dear." I have no problem shooting a 300 mag
or any other rifle or shotgun that i can remember. When i was young and dumb
i would shoot both barrels on a 3 1/2 inch 10ga. mag at the same time just
to show folks i could, didn't mean the goose or turkey needed it.
how many shots do you take at whitetail deer over say 400 yards?
the question was is a 450/45-70 to big for whitetail oh but i do use a 300 win
mag.

[rex6666]

I guess all you fellars that have a 300 oughta just get rid of em. Lol.

Funny thing, I've found I can easily download my .300 WM to .30-06 or even .308 Win velocities and recoil levels but I just haven't figured out a way to load the .30-06 up to .300 WM levels...



I guess some folks think that, because they can't handle a .300 WM, the cartridge is without merit.  I think they're breathing too much swamp gas...

Not at all i can handle the 300mag just no need to.
if i was constantly shooting at say 500 yards and more i would think about the 300mag but since i don't need one surly not for any where in whitetail country
Some time some where some folks got bit by the mag bug, deer have not
evolved in to super critters most all whitetail shots can be made with 243
and a 30-06 is more than really needed, but a man might go elk or moose hunting.

I will bet you have never down loaded the 300, always up load.
I can't get rid of my 300 cause i never bought one, don't need one
don't need to beat my chest and squeel " I HAVE A 300 WIN MAG"
some folks breath too much coyote gas.

[FredWT]

Since many people turned this into caliber bashing I thought that I would jump in too. I own a .450G, ported, five .45-70s, a .300 WM and an Encore in .375 H&H. None of them have seen a factory round, I handload for all of them. All make very fine deer rifles. I load them to do the task at hand. My Browning A-Bolt Stalker is stainless in .300 WM. I load it from .30-30 velocity to full power WM stuff. It is kinda light, stainless and very accurate. It is usually loaded like a .308 for deer. My Encore in .375 H&H has never seen a full power round yet. It usually shoots cast like a .38-55 or maybe a 220 Hornady going slow for deer. The .450 and .45-70s speak for themselves. I am not going to sell one because someone thinks it is too powerful. I shoot them because I enjoy shooting them. As you can see, I have them as redundent overlap. Some can have an edge over others. Swampy is right that for a hunter, a properly loaded .30-06 will do about anything a WM will do. I do not feel compelled to sell the Browning. I love the Idea of the WM as a sitting gun and the .450 as a walking gun. I would not want to cover a power line with the .450, it does better walking the woods. Aren't we blessed to live in a country where we can legally own and use all of this diversity, own all of the guns you can afford, hunt with anything the game regs say is legal. I love my USA. I love hunting my game animals.

[rex6666]

Since many people turned this into caliber bashing I thought that I would jump in too. I own a .450G, ported, five .45-70s, a .300 WM and an Encore in .375 H&H. None of them have seen a factory round, I handload for all of them. All make very fine deer rifles. I load them to do the task at hand. My Browning A-Bolt Stalker is stainless in .300 WM. I load it from .30-30 velocity to full power WM stuff. It is kinda light, stainless and very accurate. It is usually loaded like a .308 for deer. My Encore in .375 H&H has never seen a full power round yet. It usually shoots cast like a .38-55 or maybe a 220 Hornady going slow for deer. The .450 and .45-70s speak for themselves. I am not going to sell one because someone thinks it is too powerful. I shoot them because I enjoy shooting them. As you can see, I have them as redundent overlap. Some can have an edge over others. Swampy is right that for a hunter, a properly loaded .30-06 will do about anything a WM will do. I do not feel compelled to sell the Browning. I love the Idea of the WM as a sitting gun and the .450 as a walking gun. I would not want to cover a power line with the .450, it does better walking the woods. Aren't we blessed to live in a country where we can legally own and use all of this diversity, own all of the guns you can afford, hunt with anything the game regs say is legal. I love my USA. I love hunting my game animals.

I will go along with what you are saying 308 for deer, my point was their is no need for a full load 300 win mag. for a whitetail deer.
the person was concerned that a 450marlin was too big yet a 300 win mag was ok.

[brianscott12]

I myself don't believe it's about what will do yhe job but what YOU want that will do the job. If you can get the job done with a 300 mag, then more power to ya. If you want to use a 30 30 then more power to you. It's all about what YOU want to use. Deer hunting would be a lot less fun if all we could use was what's enough. I have personally killed more deer with a 30 30 than anything else but my thing now is the 45/70. Lotta guys say that is too much and tease me about it a bein too big. I don't care! Thats what I like and I've never lost any meat with it, so thats what I'll use till I no longer hunt.

[Coyote Hunter]

… most all whitetail shots can be made with 243
and a 30-06 is more than really needed, but a man might go elk or moose hunting.

Never hunted whitetail and have hunted elk more than mulies.  Usually I hunt them in the same season which means the rifle in hand has to do double duty. 

I will bet you have never down loaded the 300, always up load.
I can't get rid of my 300 cause i never bought one, don't need one
don't need to beat my chest and squeel " I HAVE A 300 WIN MAG"
some folks breath too much coyote gas.

That’s a bet I’ll take and you would lose. 

My .300 WM is a Ruger with a 24” barrel.  With 168g A-MAX bullets, 59.8g H4350 yields a modest 2598fps and puts 3 in under an inch at 100. My .308 Win loads for the 168g A-MAX run marginally faster at 2628fps with Varget and 2665fps with BL-C(2).

A 168g A-MAX with 78.0g H1000 runs 2869fps in my .300 WM.  By contrast, my Ruger .30-06 pushes the same bullet to 2865fps with H4350 and my Remington .30-06 pushes it to 2820fps with the same load.

No chest beating here – my favorite rifle is my .257 Roberts.  That said, I recognize that a .257 Roberts is not a .257 Weatherby, a .30-30 is not a .300 Savage, a .308 Win is not a .30-06 and a .30-06 is not a .300 WM - even though there is a lot of overlap between the members in those pairs. 

Most times a 4 cylinder engine will do what needs doing, sometimes you need a 6 or 8 cylinder, sometimes you need Mud and Snow tires and sometimes you want a 7.3L Turbo diesel with 4x4 and chains on all four.  Incremental differences can and often do make a difference in the end result.

[mcwoodduck]

If you take game with it I believe its a good choice, Is it to big? Prolly. But I'd rather err on the big side than small.

 .45-70s are fun to shoot anyhow.

To paraphrase Elmer Keith.
It may be too much gun but it is better than the alternative.

I think the big soft points are great in the brush.  I like 45-70 in standard velocities.  the Hot loads are a little too much but they will put deer on the ground.  If you reload to the 45-70 speeds.  it will be a little softer on your shoulder.  The 450 Marlin is basicly a 458 Win Mag Special +.  (Yes I know the Belt is different.)

[Empty Quiver]

The same can be said about a 45# self bow with flint tipped arrows Swampman. That is if you are a hunter.

[Swampman]

I've done that already.  I made the bow myself.

[Coyote Hunter]

I will go along with what you are saying 308 for deer, my point was their is no need for a full load 300 win mag. for a whitetail deer.
the person was concerned that a 450marlin was too big yet a 300 win mag was ok.

A Hornady 450 Marlin load in a Marlin levergun, whether the 325g FTX @ 2225fps or the 350g FP @ 2119fps, generates significantly more recoil than my full-power .300 WM loads.  Where the 450 Marlin will run about 38-39 foot-pounds without a scope and around 34-35 foot pounds with one, my .300 WM runs 29-30 foot pounds with 180g and 168g loads respectively.  My 168g .30-06 loads run 22-23 foot pounds so the difference between a .30-06 and a .300 WM is about the same as the difference between a .300 WM and a .450 Marlin.

I leave it up to individual hunters to determine if they have a “need” for a “full load 300 win mag”. 

[FredWT]

rex6666, where I was going with the .300 WM is that for WTD it is more a specialty gun, covering power lines, gas lines, bean fields, where its long range can be usefull. I never said anything about top end loads, in which case I would not walk the woods like that, why, I would walk with the .450 M .

[mcwoodduck]

Most folks think they can handle any rifle.  I know I can and have.  Most folks I try to work with are terrible shots with both rifle & pistol.  Very few of them can handle anything above a 7mm-08 in a rifle or a 9mm in a pistol.

The 300 Winchester is too much rifle for most hunters.  They can't handle it but their egos tell them they can.  The 450 Marlin & the .45-70 are great deer cartridges.  I put them in the same class as the .30-30 & .35 Remington.

I think most shooters do not get to use their firearms as much as others.  The more you shoot the more tollarant you are to recoil.  When I first got my 375H&H, it kicked and hard especally from the bench, the more and more I shot it the less it kicked, I have not been able to shoot as much as I did 18 months ago and I am sure it would go back to kicking the snot out of me.  Some are just lousy shots and no matter what you teach them they know better.  Some think the lazer like ballistics will over come bad habbits, position, breathing, or pulling the trigger rather than the squeeze.  
If I could only have one rifle for all hunting.  I think it would be a 300 WM.  Glad I can have what I want and match the action, caliber, and speed to the game I am hunting.  I have a bolt action 45-70 I had made.  If I had waited a year to build it, the 450 Marlin would have come out and I would have gotten a Mauser 98 in chambered it in 450 and had 50 X the stock options as I did with my siamese 98 action.  I am thinking I may still want to make one.

[rex6666]

rex6666, where I was going with the .300 WM is that for WTD it is more a specialty gun, covering power lines, gas lines, bean fields, where its long range can be usefull. I never said anything about top end loads, in which case I would not walk the woods like that, why, I would walk with the .450 M .

I am not disagreeing with you, what you said makes sense.
Now we have added recoil to the mix, some folks just can't get the point i was trying to make. Why as about a 450marlin being to much, for a WHITETAIL DEER when you already have
a 300mag. I could care less what you use, personally most all whitetail shot are
under 200 yards, if you want/need a 300mag for that, have a wonderful time.
i think the 450 or 45/70 is a good choice out to 200 yards.

[Coyote Hunter]

...most all whitetail shot are under 200 yards, if you want/need a 300mag for that, have a wonderful time.
i think the 450 or 45/70 is a good choice out to 200 yards.

For the recoil sensitive, the .300 WM, even with full-power loads is probably the better choice.  Then there are reduced-power loads for the .300 WM, something Hornady doesn’t offer for the .450 Marlin.  Standard Remington/Federal/Winchester loads are available for the .45-70 and don’t have a lot of recoil but they are also running out of steam at 200 yards. (A 300g bullet launched at 1880fps typical will have about 1300fps and 1100fpe remaining at 200.  I’d take a shot at whitetail but I wouldn’t use a standard .45-70 load to reach much further.) 

The 6x6 bull I shot with my .45-70 was at a lasered 213 yards.  I used a 350g bullets running 2183fps at the muzzle.  The next day I took a buck mulie at a lasered 197 yards.  Both shots were very effective, but recoil, at around 42 foot-pounds and slightly more than .450 Marlin loads, was also significantly greater than for my .300 WM full-power loads (29-30 foot-pounds).  While I would have taken both shots with a standard .450 Marlin loads, I would have had little confidence in standard .45-70 loads at those ranges and might well have passed in both cases.  (In the case of the elk because I did not want a long chase on my hands and in the case of the buck because if it didn’t drop it would have quickly been over a fence and onto land I didn’t have permission to hunt.)

While the .450 Marlin/45-70 are fun (I load my .45-70 from “mild to wild” as they say), the .300 WM is much more versatile cartridge and the .300 recoils considerably less than factory .450 Marlin loads. 

[SHOOTALL]

I would use your gun until you find one deader than dead . Then you could assume it was to much gun !

[Redtail1949]

no it is not you shoot whatever you want.

i have friend that hunts everything whitetails, muley, black and brown bear, elk.. all things with a .375 H&H. i used to make fun of him on elk hunts that he was afraid of being attcked by them and so on. his argument was that he shoots one rifle and knows it well ( i admit he does shot it very well) and that he never tracks game over 10 yards...lol

i have witnessed his elk fall in their tracks as if stone axed between the eyes no mater the angle of the shot. i have seen muleys fall many times right where they stood with a nice round two inch sized hole nose to tail as well.

he, if i might add, has a point.

so shoot whatever you want if you are comfortable with it shoot it. remember ..."DEAD is DEAD"

[Darrell Davis]

Well said Redtail 1949!

And as I have indicated in the past, the most distruction I have ever seen on a deer was with a 30/30.

Thankfully it wasn't my shot, but it was poorly placed at short range with a bullet unable to take even the stresses of the lowly 30/30.

There is no substute for bullet integrity with the possible exception of size.

Maybe the size is what helps with the integrity when it comes to things like a 375 coming up against a deer sized critter.

Still dreaming about moving to a 45/70 and cast bullet hunting, but until then I will surely depend on the bullet integrity of premimum level bullets in my 300 and never, never say I'm sorry for using it for all my hunting, be the critters large or small.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[Swampman]

There is no substitute for the Remington Core-Lokt on whitetail deer.

[Coyote Hunter]

There is no substitute for the Remington Core-Lokt on whitetail deer.

What BS.  Any cup-and core designed for big game will kill whitetails as well as a Core-Lokt of similar size – they aren’t that big and they are not hard to kill. 

If you are shooting a high velocity cartridge (over 2600fps on impact) there are many bullet types I would prefer over a Core-Lokt or any other cup-and-core bullet.

Frankly, I’ll take my Roberts with a 100g TTSX over anything with a Core-Lokt any day of the week when it comes to whitetail or antelope.

[rex6666]

coyote hunter
expert on recoil
bullets
and what else
oh i forgot, probably every thing else.

[painted horse]

Well, I don't know about the "to much" part, but it's certainly way more than is needed. A 150lb deer ain't that hard to kill.  I do think it's a good timber rifle for elk, thats what I use it for, (Marlin 45-70) and from what I read is one of the favorite calibers for BIG bear protection up North. (I"m combining 450 with the 45-70 as they're kissin cousins) and I have no doubt in my mind it would do that job admirally, but I personally have no desire to test that opinion.  I also know that I'm a lousy shot at a dead run, shooting back over my shoulder. (BIG bear scenerio)  I am not an advocate of 800 yard shots with 900 magnums, nor the idea that death by a 300 winny is deader than by a 243, and that the majority, let me say VAST majority, of hunters have any business shooting at deer sized game over 300 yards away and truth be known probably closer to 200. Just an opinion, yours may vary, and thats a good thing, else this would be a very boring world. By the way, good luck with the 450. Nice rifle.

[Halwg]

Of course it's a great whitetail cartridge...the only thing better would be a 444 Marlin!   

[Coyote Hunter]

coyote hunter
expert on recoil
bullets
and what else
oh i forgot, probably every thing else.

"Many things", not "every thing"...  

[Coyote Hunter]

Of course it's a great whitetail cartridge...the only thing better would be a 444 Marlin!   

Or a .30-30?   

[Swampman]

coyote hunter
expert on recoil
bullets
and what else
oh i forgot, probably every thing else.

The only thing he's an expert on is doing searches for my post so he can post a contradictory statement.  It doesn't matter what the post subject or content is.

[Darrell Davis]

Maybe that is what keep you so honest.

Keep em coming!

CDOC