Possibile 7.62x39 fix-your thoughts?

[myarmor]

This idea comes from our new friend and member Kmrere42.
He posted it on Roberts topic about his new 7.62x39 barrel.

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Misfires with surplus ammo  

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Hi,


Picked up my new handi in 7.62x39 last week. The bore miked at .3103 with a 4 grove rh twist. I had a lot of problems with some misc, ammo including some russian surplus. I even had a misfire with winchester USA whitebox fmj's.

After sitting down and really looking things over I think that the misfire problem is that the firing pin does not strike out far enough when struck by the hammer.

Has anyone thought of removing some metal from the hammer where it impacts the frame. Seems to me that this would be a better option than trying to change anything else



-Seems like a good idea. Only possibile problem I see is that if you take off too much then the firing pin might just strike the primer too far.
What do you guys think?

[Mac11700]

I wouldn't try to remove any metal from the frame...if he is having light firing pin strikes...he needs to call NEF and apprise them of his situation...and a possible return to the factory.He could try flushing out the area real good in case he has something inside the area but I wouldn't remove any metal.

Mac

[myarmor]

Well, you wouldn't be removing metal from the frame or reciever, only from the hammer.
You can see how far the pin comes out when you slowly let the hammer down with your finger holding the trigger.
Then compare it to when you cock the hammer and manuely push the transfer bar in with your finger. This is how far it would extend to if -in theory- you removed just a hair off the top of the hammer where it hits the reciever.
Again this is all theory....but I think it just might work if done correctly.
I personally don't have a 7.62x39 barrel, so I have no real need to try it, but it's just an interesting idea if it can be done safely.

[Varminter]

Sounds like it would work to me. But i think it would be really easy to take off too much. If you done this you would have to go extremely slow in taking off the metal.

[Fred M]

Maximum 0.035 projection from the standing breech. Hold the trigger back and let the hammer down to measure. You need a needle file to do it. I removed the metal off the action so you don't restrict the movement of the transfer bar. Put a small magnet in front of the hammer to catch the filings from going into the action.

If you have a gap in the standing breech, get rid of the gap first, this may just do the trick.

You will notice a very poor fit between the hammer and the frame. Use LIPSTICK to see where you should remove the metal.The recess clean up will give you at least 5 thou. We only talk about 5-10 thou. But you best send it into H&R, from where I am that is not possible.

Note Surplus ammo has very hard primers for use in automatic weapons. Maybe that is your trouble. Try some real sporting primers first before you do anything with the firing pin projection.

[trotterlg]

Just checked the fireing pin gauge for a 7.62.54R 91-59 which I would think would be fairly much like a 7.62X39.  The fireing pin on a Nagant is fixed to the hammer, if the hammer is forward the pin is out.  The short notch for the pin check is .075 deep, and the long notch is .095 deep, so I would guess that if you cannot get the fireing pin out atleast .075 you would be OK, just my guess however.  Larry

[cheatermk3]

7.62x39 in a Handirifle...

I'm stifling a sarcastic remark about the corporate wizards at NEF.

[Fred M]

My 223 has 0.038 and the 257 Roberts has .036 so if you wanted to go with .040" that would be ok. I have no trouble with primer ignition.
Also that is no guaranty that it will cure the bad ignition.

The military ammo and primers are designed to prevent slam fires in automatic  weapons and the primers are rock hard some are even made of steel.

The Handi is a sporting rifle and not designed to ignite the hard primers, and the hammer springs are not strong enough to fire them. That is why I said to try the regular primers or sporting ammo if there is such a thing?

There is no sporting rifle made with a .075" firing pin projection. If you do that you just asking for trouble and pierced primers. Don't do it.

I don't know anything about the Nagant rifle but there i s or must be good reasons for the long projection and that is not aplicable to the Handi.

Bad move by H&R to make a rifle for this junk ammo. Get the rifle chambered for a 303 Brit very easy to do.

[trotterlg]

I would say it takes that much of a whack to set off the Russian ammo.  The amount of energy in the fireing pin system of the russian gun must be 5 to 10 times what the handi has, if you notice the handi has a very small diameter fireing pin, the older H&R's without the transfer bar have nice fat pins like most rifles, my guess is that when they went to the transfer bar they had to reduce the diameter of the fireing pin to make a proper dent in a primer to get good ignition.  To set off the Russian stuff you will need a big wackand I don't know if the handi is up to the task even if you have  more fireing pin travel.  How about a bigger hammer spring?  Larry

[JPH45]

7.62x39 in a Handirifle...

I'm stifling a sarcastic remark about the corporate wizards at NEF.

I actually think the Little Russian is a good move for the Handi. People just need to quit trying to use bad ammo, read Wolf.

I'll be damned if I'd alter a rifle to make it shoot an ammunition the maker plainly says not to use. Gee, I wonder if they too thought of this so called solution?? Perhaps they know the limitations of thier design better than the would be smiths here. Has anyone thought of the possibility that in making the rifle ignite the Wolf ammo, they will change the travel of the firing pin enough to pierce Winchester and other factory brands ammo? Gee, I bet an eye full of that high pressure gas would feel great. In case no one has noticed, there is nowhere for the gas released from a peirced primer to go except right into the firing pin bore and out beside the hammer. Where is your eye when you are shooting??

Now if we could just get 'em to chamebr the 454 Casull, a far better choice than the 500 Small & Weak.

Edited for grammer

[R.W.Dale]

7.62x39 in a Handirifle...

I'm stifling a sarcastic remark about the corporate wizards at NEF.

I actually think the Little Russian is a good move for the Handi. People just need to quit trying to use bad ammo, read Wolf.

I'll be damned if I'd alter a rifle to make it shoot an ammunition the maker plainly says not to use. Gee, I wonder if they too thought of this so called solution?? Perhaps they know the limitations of thier design better than the would be smiths here. Has anyone thought of the possibility that in making the rifle ignite the Wolf ammo, they will change the travel of the firing pin enough to pierce Winchester and other factory brands ammo? Gee, I bet an eye full of that high pressure gas would feel great. In case no one has noticed, there is nowhere for the gas released from a peirced primer to go except right into the firing pin bore and out beside the hammer. Where is your eye when you are shooting??

Now if we could just get 'em to chamebr the 454 Casull, a far better choice than the 500 Small & Weak.

Edited for grammer

 These barrels are a bad move for H&R luckly for them they are a limited production. The last time I checked Wolf ammo ISN"T SURPLUS in fact my Cz carbine shoots the 154 gr loading into 2" at 100 WITHOUT misfires. Of the range reports I've read on these handi barrels is that winchester ammo only fairs marginally better. Why?  Because ALL 7.62x39 factory loadings are degsined with 2 rifles in mind SKS and AK rifles as far as I have been able to learn Rossi's and NEF's are the only commercial rifles that have this problem Mini30 M77Mk2 CZ527 and Charles daily rifles appear to be immune to this affliction.

       454?? Isn't that a chevrolet engine. :-)

[Fred M]

The Rem 700 308 bolt face has a 0.070" firing pin. The Handi 223 has a .060" pin which is meant for the small primer. My Viper 6ppc has a 0.062 firing pin also for small primer. So the Handi has a proper size firing pin.
That is not to say a 0.070 size firing pin would not work in a 223 boltface.

The 7.62x39 case can be made into a 6ppc so it too uses a small primer.
Making a larger diameter firing pin would require more energy to ignite the primer.

The gas operated Kalishnikov auto rifle firing pin is unknown to me but that is what the 7.62 x39 was designed for. Go to a military gun forum and find out. I am not interested in sheet metal guns. But I am sure that crappy ammo was not meant to be fired in a Handi

[Mac11700]

The last time I checked Wolf ammo ISN"T SURPLUS

Your absolutly correct...it is MIL-SPEC'D ammo...and that is according to the marketing director of Wolf...and so in this regard...it isn't the recommended type of ammo to be used in a Handi.

Mac

[trotterlg]

I am sure that crappy ammo was not meant to be fired in a Handi

I am sure that the people shooting it out of AK47's don't find it "crappy".  Just because it is different doesn't mean it is bad.  If the rifle isn't designed for it then don't shoot it, The question as I saw it was how to get it to shoot.  Just what 7.62X39 ammo does Handi recommend, and is it SAAMI spec?   I can not think of one earthly reason to own a 7.62X39 rifle if it won't shoot the cheap surplus ammo.  Larry

[Stan in SC]

The thought that came to my mind was to ream the 7.62X39 chamber out to accept .303British.The .310 bore is correct for this caliber.I just wonder what problems there would be in the extractor handling that cartridge.It would probably be an unworkable idea but a .303British Handi would be a real thumper although admittedly there are other calibers to be more easily had that "thump" just as well or better.

Stan

[tom barthel]

Hi      
       
I've had thoughts of getting a barrel and having it rechambered to .303 Brit like Stan.  I can order the ejector/extractor parts for the rim.  My main concern is the tight bore.  Most bullet makers list their bullets at .311-.312 diameter.  I have a Savage 99 in .308 that has a tight bore.  It seems to handle my lighter reloads without problems.  The factory loads seem to kick much harder.  My concern is, would the slightly oversize bullets cause unsafe pressures?  My head may not be much but, I want to keep it.  IS IT SAFE??  I don't know. I have been wrong before.    Perhaps a more knowledgeable person can offer some advice.  
 
Good luck with your efforts.  
 
Take care and God bless.  
 
Tom

[trotterlg]

I thik the .303 would be a good plan.  Best accuracy is had when the bullet is about .001 lareger than the bore, so it should be just right.  The .303 is a low pressure round anyway.  Larry

[R.W.Dale]

The last time I checked Wolf ammo ISN"T SURPLUS

Your absolutly correct...it is MIL-SPEC'D ammo...and that is according to the marketing director of Wolf...and so in this regard...it isn't the recommended type of ammo to be used in a Handi.

Mac

 Yes but my point is that ALL commercal 7.62x39 loadings are be they wolf remchester pmc S&B ect.

[myarmor]

Well I asked for opinions and I got them. Like I said before...If it can be done safely. The main concern I had as well was too deep of primer penatration.
 And too I in no way recomend trying something that would put the shooter in danger.
 It is just a passing idea that our friend brought up and I though, sense NEF/H&R owners being the tinkerers they are, you guys would be interested.
7.62x39 surplus as well as almost all the comercial ammo for this caliber I have seen (I admit I haven't seen all the comercial offerings) have had hard and deep set primers...which of course is intended mostly for the semi-auto SKS and AK's. Thats the other reason I brought it up.
Just in hopes to relieve some frusteration from our 7.62 owners.

[Kmrere42]

Hi all,  
 
 
Thank You `myarmor' for posting my inquiry.   Been trying to get back to my computer.  
 
 
I fabricated a .016" shim and placed it against the transfer bar while holding it there with a drop of oil.  I found that the ignition of the hard primered russian blue box from VYMPEL was good. I had no mis-fires after using the shim whereas without it not one fired.  All fired primers look as they should with NO indication of puncturing or flow back.  
 
My reasoning for trying this is to be able to use the widest array of ammunition that is available for the caliber.  Really, the best alternative is to have a new firing pin fabricated but I would like to avoid that.  
 
 
 
Dos anyone know if there are any other manufacturers that will make a heavier bullet load other than wolf??  140-145gr might be a good compromise if the construction is designed right.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Paul

[myarmor]

No prob Kmrere42.
The Shim is a good idea.
Do you have any pics of your fix with the shim?
I'm sure all of us would like to see it.
Also what did you use to make the shim?

[Badnews Bob]

Winchester white box isn't mil-spec has standard win primers and will shoot sub MOA outta my handi..... It is not the same as wolf..... Wolf works great in my SKS I have alot of it thats what its for. I have some CZ rifles also and guess what... They say do not use Mil-spec or steel cased ammo! In other words WOLF. Alot of high zoot bench guns are based on the 7.62x39 I wonder why.

Winchester brass for the little round uses large rifle primers not small, some of the others use small primers thou.

 This thing is also very pleasent to shoot and makes a fine deer round.

[cheatermk3]

No prob Kmrere42.
The Shim is a good idea.
Do you have any pics of your fix with the shim?
I'm sure all of us would like to see it.
Also what did you use to make the shim?

If you do alter the rifle in this manner, be aware that it may be unsafe with other caliber barrels.  Somewhere down the line it may give somebody a nasty surprise.

I probably didn't need to point that out, I guess...

[trotterlg]

The wolf is about the heaviest you will find, standard weight for the 7.62X39 is 125 gr.  Larry

[Robert]

I agree with the guys that say "DONT DO IT".  The Wolf ammo IS definately hard recessed primers just like 'Milsurp' and it will not fire.  If you alter the hammer....then you will have problems with other barrels and as far as I am concerned you would be creating a dangerous weapon if it ever fell into other 'unknowing' hands.  This is an even WORSE idea than cutting the end off of the hammer to fit a scope rather than simply getting the correct scopee and/or rings....  Very stupid gunsmithing.
  I also do NOT agree with the folks that say this barrel is a bad move by NEF because it will not fire cheap milsurp and Wolf ammo.  Cheap Milsurp and Wolf ammo do not work in Contenders either.
  This IS A SPECIALTY barrel...and it performs flawlessly for the folks that know what to do with it.  It is an excellent Deer Thumper with up to 200 gr bullets, and for plinking .....ya can shoot it all day long and not wear out your shoulder....it is also an excellent choice to take the ladies or kids out to shoot recreationally.  So...if ya don't like the idea of a 7.62x39 in Handis...don't buy it.  If you already have one and do not like it....send it to me.

[R.W.Dale]

Kids I think the moral to this story is " If you're not into handloading you shoulda bought a 30-30"

 Robert how are those 200gr bullets grouping I've been getting some spetacular groups with sierra 150 grainers?

[Fred M]

Robert.

What you say is good advise,as a matter of fact it is the best.

No I would never buy a 7.62x39 it reminds me too much of commies and the Taliban.

[myarmor]

No prob Kmrere42.
The Shim is a good idea.
Do you have any pics of your fix with the shim?
I'm sure all of us would like to see it.
Also what did you use to make the shim?

If you do alter the rifle in this manner, be aware that it may be unsafe with other caliber barrels.  Somewhere down the line it may give somebody a nasty surprise.

I probably didn't need to point that out, I guess...

Also too keep in mind that this is a temporary try.....he held the shim there by oil, and in no way permanently fixed it there.
Handis are great firearms. Simple, accurate and most appealing to the mass is the price. Some people get bored of 22s after awhile and, like it or not, perhaps want a inexpensive some-what high powered plinker, and the perk,that they can scope out immediately.
A simple rifle that shoots good, and you can feed cheap ammo to-that's what many people want.
 And there's nothing wrong in it's self with that.  As is there is nothing wrong with buying a cheap Mil. Surplus rifle and a boatload of cheap ammo.
 Point being, people want to have fun shooting! Many have fun reloading, thats excellent, and I look forward to this winter when I start. But by and large there are more people that don't reload, and want the cheapest alternative there is so that they can enjoy the sport they love as much as possibile.  
I think it's funny that many handloaders take it personal that people shoot cheap ammo. And possibily loose sight of the whole thing-to enjoy and have fun.
SAFELY!

[Badnews Bob]

I don't understand this tread at all, NEF says in there owners manuals DO NOT SHOOT MIL-SURP in there rifles. So why do so? Why modifiy one to do so? Ok the inexpensive part, SKSs can be had for under 200 dollars shoot wolf and others like crazy and are bunches of fun. Winchester fedral and remington all make sporter loads in 7.62x39 while not as cheap as wolf they are cheaper than other calibers and shoot great. I think the .500 S&W has a lot less appeal than the russain bore handi, More options for rechamber also.

I still think most underestamate this round because of AKs and SKSs. :?

[R.W.Dale]

I don't get why people have so much trouble with the idea that remchester also uses hard mil spec priming. From what I've read people are having trouble getting getting a x39 to shoot ANY commercial ammo. It does not matter what bullet is used if it's a factory 7.62x39 it uses mil spec primers probably something like these....