Author Topic: Pistol for bear defense (Read 3100 times)

Qaz · « **on:** October 04, 2005, 02:36:41 AM »

I have always wandered about the discussions about carrying a pistol for defense in bear country. Is a person just fooling them self by doing this or not. I started thinking about how quickly a bear can cover 50yds or even 100yds and then how quickly a person can draw a pistol from the holster and get off at least one shot. Add to this the pressure of a very large predator coming to kill you. Granted, you may clear leather and your one wild shot may stop the bear dead or it may just make the thing really mad. I know the experiences that I have had with black bears while hiking have been the bear was up close before I knew he was there. The accounts that I have heard or read on grizzly attacks have been they were on the person within seconds of being seen or heard.
Lets be realistic, is it really protection or false peace of mind? I know some of you gun slingers were born in the wrong century

but what about us normal folks. Some will say it is better than nothing, but is it really. Lets here some opinions.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 04, 2005, 03:39:14 AM »

Your going to open a can of worms here, but I will take the bait. I had heard of a lot of people defending themselves in a bear attack with a handgun. Not all bears are going to just pounce on you. I would rather be prepared than not. Anytime I am hunting in bear country, I will have a handgun on my side.

My 4 inch 500 MAG.

PA-Joe · « **Reply #2 on:** October 04, 2005, 03:59:48 AM »

The broader question is whether just carrying will protect you at all even with two legged bears. If you don't practice drawing your weapon the answer would be no!

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2005, 02:32:44 PM »

Qaz,

Basically you are right on all counts. it's a well proven fact that people don't shoot well when under stress. Can you think of any greater stress than facing something that has decided you are going to be it's guest for dinner? I dont care how fast the person thinks he/she can draw or how accurate they think they are with that first shot. Most dont have any idea just how little time a bear coming at them from 40 yards away is going to give them. By the time they see the danger and realize its for real they are going to have maybe 2 seconds to get off that first shot. There are way to many reports of people defending themselves with a handgun on a charging bear(most times its a bluff) and ending up missing the bear completely. Even on a 1,000 lb. Brown Bear. One story that always comes to mind is the one where a police officer, co-captain of the combat pistol team, fishing for Salmon was charged by a Brown Bear in Alaska. He managed to get off all 6 shots from his S & W .44 mag. when the bear turned and was killed by another fisherman with a .375 H&H rifle. While they were looking over the bear it was discovered that the officer had missed with all 6 shots. Actually, in my opinion, depending on a handgun for defense against a bear(even a lowly Black Bear) is like depending on a pacifier for nourishment. Lots of promise but........ :-D You're better off with a rifle(or a shotgun loaded with Benneke slugs(NO BUCKSHOT)) in your hands than any handgun/pistol going. Sorry Redhawk1 but that includes your .500 S&W.

Lawdog

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2005, 05:30:08 PM »

Your entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

:-D

But seriously, I use my 500 as a backup and tent gun. My primary weapon a rifle would be my first choice. Not everyone reacts the same in a given situation, so we can all speculate all we want. But better to have and not need than to need and not have.

NONYA · « **Reply #5 on:** October 04, 2005, 07:24:32 PM »

they make a snubnose 454 casul for bear defense,I think that would get a bears attention

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2005, 07:59:19 PM »

Best thing to do is to hunt with someone slower than you. And tastier!

This issue has been debaited about as much as; Which came first, the chicken or the egg.

In the tent or carrying bait to the bait stand..... .44 Mag. and 300 grain solids.

If I am really worried or might be chasing a wounded bear; 870 Remington, 20" slug barrel and 1 3/8" oz. Brenneke dangerous game slugs.

The best thing about a handgun is that it is always on your hip. You don't lean it against a tree, leave it in the boat or lay it down. It is always
there.

The ultimate defense against bears is common bear sense.

Lawdog · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2005, 11:20:22 AM »

Daveinthebush,

Quote

Best thing to do is to hunt with someone slower than you.

:-D :-D Actually all you have to do is hunt with a "new" friend and then you don't have to carry a big bore pistol. A little .22 will do as all you have to do is shoot your friend in the knee, grab his rifle and take off. Works every time. :-D Lawdog

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2005, 01:17:11 AM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Daveinthebush,

Quote
Best thing to do is to hunt with someone slower than you.

:-D :-D Actually all you have to do is hunt with a "new" friend and then you don't have to carry a big bore pistol. A little .22 will do as all you have to do is shoot your friend in the knee, grab his rifle and take off. Works every time. :-D Lawdog

I guess I won't be hunting with Lawdog. :-D

Sourdough · « **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2005, 08:33:06 AM »

A pistol is not my first choice for bear protection. A 12 ga with #4 buckshot or larger or slugs. People say "shot no way" well if he is charging you, you don't have a good shot at the vitals, only the head. A single slug is easier to miss than a wad of shot. Aim for the nose!!!!!!!! You stand a better chance of hitting one of the eyes and penetrating the brain, instant kill. At least you take out the nose and both eyes, you then stand a chance of getting away.

As for the pistol, I carry one, a Taurus Raging Bull in 454 Casull. Like Dave said you don't lean it against a tree, when you go to pee. I know a couple of guys that were able to drive off a bear, using a pistol, after they had already been attacked. One was in his sleeping bag. I wrote about this one in the Outdoor Experiences forum. Plus many Moose have been shot with a pistol simply because the hunter had it on when the moose walked into camp. I shot a moose once with a .44 mag because I could not get to my rifle fast enough, it was in the saddle scabbard on the horse.

Lawdog · « **Reply #10 on:** October 06, 2005, 11:13:41 AM »

Sourdough,

Read the following, http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm, before you decide to use "buckshot" for defense against bears(any and all bears). The human body is a lot more frail than any bear body and I have seen #4 buckshot deflect after entering the human body in more than one autopsy to ever trust it for stopping a bear. Buckshot for defense against dangerous game, NO THANK YOU. Lawdog

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** October 06, 2005, 11:39:19 AM »

This subject seems to crop up regularly, here and on other forum sites.

The one thing most common in the responses given is a total and complete lack of experience in actually hunting and more especially in having to defend oneself from bears by the posters.

The reponses usually come from folks who:

1. Have never even seen a bear in the wild. (BTW I fit this category.) :eek:

2. Have seen but never hunted or shot a bear at all.

3. Have hunted and maybe shot a bear in a hunting situation but never needed to shoot one in self defense.

4. Who have never ever been attacked and there fore have no real experience that is valid.

Now JJ Hack who is the Moderator of the Hunting in Africa Forum is some different. He has killed more bears himself than likely anyone or perhaps more than everyone else combined who posts on this site. He was in bear control for a tree company and killed hundreds. He was for a time a bear guide and so saw a lot more killed by clients. He has been attacked and had to defend himself and lived to tell of it.

Jim recommends the .44 Magnum with 240 JHPs. See his posts on the subject which you shoud be able to find with a search for his explaination.

Now most every one seems to recommend a long gun, most commonly a big enough rifle as the primary protection gun. I'd not argue that point. I personally would argue with those who recommend a shotgun regardless of ammo used but again I've never shot a bear. Most who suggest the use of a shotgun haven't either.

BUT assuming you fail to stop the bear with whatever long gun you have and it actually makes it to you the long gun becomes a useless tool laying on the ground some distance from you. It is of no further use. Then you have a choice. Do you use your fists, the knive in a sheath on your side or the handgun in the holster on your side? Me I'd want a handgun in a holster. At this point assuming you can get it into your hand missing becomes a moot point. Just press it to the bear and fire, you'll hit it.

I figure darn few of us have the experience and cool under fire to do a super job of dropping a charging grizzly regardless of the weapon in hand. Yeah a shotgun with buck shot makes the hitting easier but not the stopping. A rifle with high powered scope turned up like all too many carry them is likely next to useless. Good iron sights or a really low powered scope is the sighting equipment you'll need. But how many actually have ever practiced for stopping a charging bear at close range where you'll be lucky if you get off a single shot before it's on top of you? Darn few I suspect. I"m not one of them.

From discussions with folks who live in bear country and have freqent encounters with them using your head not your gun is your best insurance. Avoid situations where a charge is likely. Then if it comes hope you have the rifle in hand and are quick enough to get off a shot and lucky enough to have it land where it needs to.

But if that bear makes it to you and you don't have a handgun as a last resort then you in deep doo doo my friend.

Lawdog · « **Reply #12 on:** October 06, 2005, 12:36:05 PM »

Graybeard,

I believe JJ has posted a few times his story about filling bear feeding stations and a certain black bear jumping him and he was never able to get to the .44 mag. Ruger he carried on his hip. Had his young daughter with him at the time if I remember right. In his story he stated that no pistol was suitable for defense against bears. Maybe we can get JJ to join in here and comment on this? Lawdog

Qaz · « **Reply #13 on:** October 07, 2005, 03:39:57 AM »

One of the reasons I brought this up is because live in bear country and you really rarely ever hear them moving in the woods and you never do when they don't want you too!
The pistol part of this came to light when my friends 117lb bulldog decided to wrestle me one afternoon. He did not say where the dog was, I knew he was coming but could not hear him. When I realized where he was I only had time to turn towards him and take the full force to my chest. I hit the ground hard and my only thought was to keep the teeth off my throat. I am not a small man, but he was more than I wanted that day. I knew it was all in fun and he would not hurt me, but there is that one place in the back of my mind. I don't think I could have shot him if I had a gun on me. His game is to pin you to the ground by the throat much like a wild animal does when it is going to kill you.
Now this is not a 500+ pound bear hitting me at 30mph with bad intent. I have been 30 feet face to face with a 400+/- black bear( that is a big black bear) If I had been carrying a pistol, I might have felt better, but would I have been better off. Had he wanted to have hurt me, he could have been on me in a split second. Much quicker than I could have pulled the gun from the holster! I don't think I would have been better off with the gun. To be honest, had he attacked me, I don't know that I would have even thought to have used it. Without it, I had to use my head to remove myself from the situation and now I am even more alert in the woods hiking.

Redhawk, if you really would like to see how you would do, contact a local personal protection dog training group and ask them if they would like to use you as a decoy with a muzzled dog. They will probably jump at the chance. Close your eyes and let the handler get somewhere in the field about 50yrds away. When you hear the handlers command for the dog to attack, open your eyes, draw and shoot. I bet you don't clear leather, and in this case you will know what direction the dog is coming from. You won't be so lucky with the bear! :grin:

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2005, 08:26:02 AM »

Quote from: Qaz

One of the reasons I brought this up is because live in bear country and you really rarely ever hear them moving in the woods and you never do when they don't want you too!
The pistol part of this came to light when my friends 117lb bulldog decided to wrestle me one afternoon. He did not say where the dog was, I knew he was coming but could not hear him. When I realized where he was I only had time to turn towards him and take the full force to my chest. I hit the ground hard and my only thought was to keep the teeth off my throat. I am not a small man, but he was more than I wanted that day. I knew it was all in fun and he would not hurt me, but there is that one place in the back of my mind. I don't think I could have shot him if I had a gun on me. His game is to pin you to the ground by the throat much like a wild animal does when it is going to kill you.
Now this is not a 500+ pound bear hitting me at 30mph with bad intent. I have been 30 feet face to face with a 400+/- black bear( that is a big black bear) If I had been carrying a pistol, I might have felt better, but would I have been better off. Had he wanted to have hurt me, he could have been on me in a split second. Much quicker than I could have pulled the gun from the holster! I don't think I would have been better off with the gun. To be honest, had he attacked me, I don't know that I would have even thought to have used it. Without it, I had to use my head to remove myself from the situation and now I am even more alert in the woods hiking.

Redhawk, if you really would like to see how you would do, contact a local personal protection dog training group and ask them if they would like to use you as a decoy with a muzzled dog. They will probably jump at the chance. Close your eyes and let the handler get somewhere in the field about 50yrds away. When you hear the handlers command for the dog to attack, open your eyes, draw and shoot. I bet you don't clear leather, and in this case you will know what direction the dog is coming from. You won't be so lucky with the bear! :grin:

I will still carry a handgun regardless. As for dog attacks, I have had a lot of encounters with dogs. I also own a Great dane that loves to run at me at full speed and knock me over, granted it is in fun.

But given the choice of having a handgun on my side or not,the hand gun will be there. And if I used the handgun in self defence, I will be glad I had it.

BIG JAKE · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2005, 05:44:25 AM »

I said this before and I'll say it again. Anything is better than a hand with some skin on it.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2005, 05:56:47 AM »

Quote from: BIG JAKE

I said this before and I'll say it again. Anything is better than a hand with some skin on it.

You got that right. :-D

Sourdough · « **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2005, 04:13:59 PM »

But, when the time comes you will use what ever you have at hand. Just hope it is adiquate to do the job.

AlaskaHippie · « **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2005, 07:04:26 PM »

Quote from: BIG JAKE

I said this before and I'll say it again. Anything is better than a hand with some skin on it.

Anyone else remember this story about 6 years ago....?

By CRAIG MEDRED
Daily News reporter

Sixty-eight-year-old Gene Moe was butchering a deer on Raspberry Island on Monday when a grizzly bear jumped him, knocked him to the ground and began to maul him.

The Anchorage contractor fought back the only way he could: He stabbed the bear with the knife in his hand.

A badly mauled Moe told Silver Salmon Lodge owner Peter Guttchen that when he sank his knife into the animal's neck, blood "spurted" out. Moe told Guttchen that he stabbed the bear twice more before it climbed off him.

Fish and Wildlife Protection trooper Allan Jones of Kodiak said the Anchorage hunter then recovered his rifle and shot the attacking bear three times. The shots, Jones said, apparently killed the bear.

Moe, despite being badly injured and alone, climbed to his feet and started hiking for the beach of the wilderness island east of Kodiak.

"He's one tough old buzzard," said nephew Doug Moe of Homer. "He's an old-timer, but he's got the heart of a 20-year-old."

"I don't know how far he walked," Jones said, but it appeared that Moe might have covered as much as two miles getting to the beach.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qaz · « **Reply #19 on:** October 11, 2005, 04:27:13 AM »

I think several of you are missing the point. Does having a sidearm instill a false sense of security? Does carrying a sidearm for back-up or even your sole protection make you feel enough at ease that you let your guard down even a little? We know that a 22lr can kill a bear and a 500 S&W will probably kill it better. I might get lucky and stab it to death with my knife or shoot him with my Whamo slingshot through the eye and hit the brain and kill him! Everyone gets lucky at some time.

Example: If a person is going fishing while the Salmon are running at what is known as a hot spot for bears, should he feel that he has adequate protection just by carrying a sidearm?

Example: If I go Brown bear hunting armed with a 375 H&H and a 500 S&W strapped to my side, should I feel as comfortable that way as having a second hunter as back-up with 458 Lott?

IMHO a sidearm is not adequate protection in bear country and had I not had it with me, I may have made other decisions that would have avoided the problem in the first place! Speaking only for myself, having a big bore sidearm for protection would instill a false sense of security in me. I shoot hot loads in a 44mag quite well and out to 50yds am hunting accurate and fast with my shots. Under bear attack, I would be quicker with the shots and not nearly as accurate and that is if I even got a shot off at all.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 11, 2005, 06:28:01 AM »

Quote from: Qaz

I think several of you are missing the point. Does having a sidearm instill a false sense of security? Does carrying a sidearm for back-up or even your sole protection make you feel enough at ease that you let your guard down even a little? We know that a 22lr can kill a bear and a 500 S&W will probably kill it better. I might get lucky and stab it to death with my knife or shoot him with my Whamo slingshot through the eye and hit the brain and kill him! Everyone gets lucky at some time.

Example: If a person is going fishing while the Salmon are running at what is known as a hot spot for bears, should he feel that he has adequate protection just by carrying a sidearm?

Example: If I go Brown bear hunting armed with a 375 H&H and a 500 S&W strapped to my side, should I feel as comfortable that way as having a second hunter as back-up with 458 Lott?

IMHO a sidearm is not adequate protection in bear country and had I not had it with me, I may have made other decisions that would have avoided the problem in the first place! Speaking only for myself, having a big bore sidearm for protection would instill a false sense of security in me. I shoot hot loads in a 44mag quite well and out to 50yds am hunting accurate and fast with my shots. Under bear attack, I would be quicker with the shots and not nearly as accurate and that is if I even got a shot off at all.

To answer you question, a handgun on my side would not give me more of a peace of mind than if I had another person with a 458 Lott as my back up. I would never replace a second back up hunter with a handgun. but I will still have a handgun on my hip. We all have our opinions about carrying a handgun in bear country as a back up, and if anyone feel better doing it, I say let them. But the are a lot of reported cases where people have stopped an attack with a handgun.

When I am in the Alaska bush, I will have one strapped on.

VeryOldDog · « **Reply #21 on:** October 11, 2005, 07:59:30 AM »

While on my way fly fishing in the Sante Fe National Forest near my cabin in North Central NM, I encountered an aggressive black bear that continued his approach to me while I backed off and retreated. With no choice left, I shot it dead with two shots from a 44 magnum. After I stopped shaking, I notified the Rangers who collected the animal and had a local vet perform an autopsy. I was notified that the animal had a brain tumor probably caused by 2 double ought buckshot embedded in his scull from a previous experience. The bear weighed approximately 220lbs. I am not pleased that I had to kill this animal and I would have preferred to walk away without an incident. But the value of the experience is that one should be prepared. Given what is happening in the U.S. today, I would think that there is more risk from 2 legged critters than those that have 4.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 11, 2005, 09:10:55 AM »

Quote from: VeryOldDog

While on my way fly fishing in the Sante Fe National Forest near my cabin in North Central NM, I encountered an aggressive black bear that continued his approach to me while I backed off and retreated. With no choice left, I shot it dead with two shots from a 44 magnum. After I stopped shaking, I notified the Rangers who collected the animal and had a local vet perform an autopsy. I was notified that the animal had a brain tumor probably caused by 2 double ought buckshot embedded in his scull from a previous experience. The bear weighed approximately 220lbs. I am not pleased that I had to kill this animal and I would have preferred to walk away without an incident. But the value of the experience is that one should be prepared. Given what is happening in the U.S. today, I would think that there is more risk from 2 legged critters than those that have 4.

A-Men brother. :wink:

45454 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 15, 2005, 07:22:13 PM »

I'm jumping in this,too.
I agree with Redhawk1, and a few others.
No matter if you're hunting bear, or not,I'd rather have either my 44 RedHawk (240gr over 1600+FPS. And yes, my loads), or my F.A. 454
Casull.(250gr. Over 1700+FPS, my loads)
This sense of security, is like freedom...you have it or you don't.
It is not a "false" sense of security. It is real security.
My vote goes for having a handgun that has been proven many times over.(or, should say, handguns) The 44 mag and 454 Casull have proved themselves.I don't feel "undergunned".
You can have an 108 MM howitzer, and still, bad things can happen.
Murphy's Law in in effect 24-7-365.Don't make any difference what you believe in,political affiliation, where you work at, or whatever.No one is exempt.This includes our "holier-than-thou"governments.It is one law,
no one can change.
Read about Tredwell and Amie "Pilot recalls........". Gory read.But it was their time to go.A horrible way to go.Auto accidents,etc, are the same.
When I go into the "hills"(mountains)for checking out areas,my handguns are with me regardless of hunting or not.There's too many "what if's".
Not just for bears, but there's been increasing coyote attacks.And the wild dogs attacks.The 2 legged critters are on my mind as well.
My rifles usually stay at home.These are an NEF Handirifle 45-70, and a 44 mag Winchester lever action.
Same with my survival kit.
You can be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
There's a lot to think about, when and while you're in the bush/outback.
I'd rather have the peace of mind on my hip, rather than a can of pepper
spray for bears.What might be good for a few, is not good for all.
And, will say in closing, that it's all about the placement of the shot.
No, I wouldn't be using a 22 on anything larger than an aggressive jackrabbit.No matter what anyone else says.
Just keep your wits areound you.Remember Murphy.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #24 on:** October 15, 2005, 07:50:51 PM »

Quote

I'd rather have the peace of mind on my hip, rather than a can of pepper
spray for bears.

Also know by the bears as "White man with hot sauce." :toast:

45454 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 16, 2005, 08:53:03 AM »

Hi Daveinthebush,
I am 1/4 Swedish,the American Indian part, well,it does come out at times. :shock:
Wonder,if the pepper spray would be good on bear tacos, and burritos ?
Have the TUMS ready :grin:
What goes in,must come out..... :roll: :wink:

Lawdog · « **Reply #26 on:** October 16, 2005, 09:22:25 AM »

Quote

Read about Tredwell and Amie "Pilot recalls........". Gory read.But it was their time to go.A horrible way to go.Auto accidents,etc, are the same.

Not really an accident. Tredwell got exactly what he was asking/looking for AND if he hadnt been so shot full of luck it would have happened years before. Strange, in his own words recorded on Tredwells video camera at the time of the attack, Tredwell had changed how he felt about his Brothers. Yelling at his girlfriend to hit the bear that was killing him with something. Now is the anyway to treat ones Brother? :?

Daveinthebush,

Quote

Also know by the bears as "White man with hot sauce." :toast:

:-D :-D Got to remembert that one. :-D Lawdog

BIG JAKE · « **Reply #27 on:** October 16, 2005, 10:36:28 AM »

Guys this fall I had the opportunity to track a wounded black bear at night in maine that a friend of mine shot with a 30-06. we new the bear was hit but not how bad. I choose to take a 356 win model 94. When I was 5 minutes into the blood trail I decided I would have been better off with my 44 mag or my 500 smith, reason being the brush was so dense that the rifle would have been useless. Case in point is that every situation is different and you can't be holding a rifle. So pick your poison and hope your right. You can see the bear at www.blackbearhunting.us it on the opening page of the sight.

myronman3 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 16, 2005, 11:45:36 AM »

if a bear wants to take you, it will.

most times, though, you will have time to draw a gun after you find out there is one near (if you have it). pistols are easier to carry with you.

a rifle or shotgun is definately more lethal than a pistol.

i carry a pistol with me while bowhunting. BECAUSE IT IS PRACTICAL.

i work in bear country everyday, and i am always unarmed. use your head and whatever weapon you think is best for you and you will be fine.

Lawdog · « **Reply #29 on:** October 16, 2005, 12:26:19 PM »

Quote

most times, though, you will have time to draw a gun after you find out there is one near

If you consider 2 - 3 seconds tops enough time. Most times, from bear attack reports, they show the bear was within 40 yards before being seen. 2 to 3 seconds is all the time it takes for a bear to cover 40 or less yards. A rifle in your hands is quicker to get into action than a pistol in a holster. Especially if the butt of the pistol is covered by a coat, sweater or whatever as this happens a lot. When in bear country my rifle is in my hands where it belongs. Lawdog