Author Topic: .308 changed to what????  (Read 2162 times)

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Offline mattparliament

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.308 changed to what????
« on: October 08, 2005, 12:10:28 PM »
Hey all~  I recently acquired a 308 barrel.  I already have a 270 barrel that I really enjoy and compares nicely to the 308, as far as how fast you can push a certain grain bullet.  Toying with the idea of renting a reamer and converting the 308 to something else.  Any input on what 30 caliber to choose?  I live in Montana and hunt deer/elk/bear and would possibly use the round for this purpose.  Of course then I'd have to take off the BC 45-70 barrel....  I'll burn that bridge when I get there.  Any ideas??  Thanks in advance.  Also, I reload my own cartridges if that helps the input.
Life is tough, it's tougher if you're stupid.  ~John Wayne

Offline R.W.Dale

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2005, 12:21:11 PM »
I vote for 7.5x55 Swiss otherwise there isn't anything that I know of that you can ream a 308 to and not be a belted magnum.

Offline Zeke Menuar

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2005, 01:06:16 PM »
Rebore to 358 Winchester?

ZM
Official Guardian of the Arsenal of Paranoia

Offline mitchell

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2005, 01:18:51 PM »
30-06 AI !!!!!!! this is what i was going to do with my 308 but it just shot to darn good.
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline Mac11700

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2005, 01:23:13 PM »
30 Newton

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2005, 10:24:45 AM »
Leave it the way it is.

30 Newton? A 338 Win Mag necked down to 30caliber = the 30 Newton.
In a Handi, I don't think so.

Mac what were you thinking of?
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline mitchell

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2005, 04:06:41 PM »
if fred is correct (not that i doubt i've just not looked to make sure)

what you smokin' mac???
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline Dirigo

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2005, 05:12:42 PM »
30-338 lapua

Offline Fred M

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2005, 05:52:32 PM »
X-Wehrmacht you are to young for that title. edited for content
Magnum cartridges are not suitable for the Handi rifles like the 30-338 Lapua. Or was this meant to be a bad joke.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Dirigo

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2005, 06:38:18 PM »
sorry, i was underinformed in both cases, but the 30-338 lapua was a little tongue in cheek

Offline Mac11700

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2005, 06:38:25 PM »
Quote from: Fred M
Leave it the way it is.

30 Newton? A 338 Win Mag necked down to 30caliber = the 30 Newton.
In a Handi, I don't think so.

Mac what were you thinking of?




Quote
if fred is correct (not that i doubt i've just not looked to make sure)

what you smokin' mac???


Wow...Apparently you boys are looking at something totally different than I am...

First off...The 30 Newton IS NOT a 338 mag necked down...this cartridge was developed in 1912 by Newton himself for a fellow named F.Adolph...does that name ring a bell to either of you two gentelmen?...

Second...the 30 Newton was inspired by the 404 Jefferey and he found suitable European metric brass to experiment on with Western cartridge company,Remington,and Winchester supplying his factory loads.... It can rival the short mags in velocity if loaded up to that level...not that one has to load it to the gills to make it work properly ...but ...the question was asked what a 308 could be rechambered to...and this is a alternative to a 30-06AI..and brass can be made from ......well...that's best reserved for now...after all...I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I'm on drugs...

PS...here's a little history of Newton and F.Adolph...a couple  men born way before their time...in case anyone cares to know about them.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3623/is_200104/ai_n8939231

http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/newtonarticle.htm

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2005, 07:39:00 PM »
Mac.
I know all about the 30 Newton, it is not in existence no more and the closest thing to that cartridge is the 338Win mag necked down to 30 and the belt removed. That is todays version, and for expediency the belt is left on. The 308 Norma could also qualify but is larger in volume.

By the way the 30-338 is perhaps the finest and the most accurate 30 cal magnum. Alas it has not the volume for todays uses.

I don't like Adolfs Hitler idea of armed forces. Its not in style. :evil:
If the kid knew what the name Wehrmacht means and represents he quit using it. It is in very bad taste. Six million innocent people died under that name.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline warf73

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2005, 09:05:43 PM »
Fred M

Wehrmacht is a speed metal band out of Portland Oregan.
I'm guessing this young mans title reins from this group?

Warf
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a jar of jalapenos.  What you do today, might burn
your ass tomorrow."

Offline Couger

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.358 or .338/06
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2005, 10:22:44 PM »
I'd also suggest the .358 Winnie, or the .338/06.

Offline Datil

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308
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2005, 01:53:08 AM »
Keep It as is, shoot as is ebjoy, Or sell it to some one
 that can enjoy just my 2 cents, :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D
 Marv.

Offline EVOC ONE

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2005, 03:20:29 AM »
The original question is an interesting one, none the less.

My question is directed to both Mac and/or Fred, given that you both are very knowledgeable about the subject and you have both commented on this thread.  But anyone should feel free to comment.

What could the .308 bbl be safely converted to that is not already offered by NEF?

EVOC ONE

Offline mattparliament

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2005, 04:02:19 AM »
What could the .308 bbl be safely converted to that is not already offered by NEF?


This is a great question....
Life is tough, it's tougher if you're stupid.  ~John Wayne

Offline Fred M

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2005, 05:38:07 AM »
mattparliament

Quote
What could the .308 bbl be safely converted to that is not already offered by NEF?


This is really another good question. There are two components to the question. One of safety and one of functional reliability.

The 06 type safety has been established, that would include the 30-280AI
with the bore as is. The cases and the chamber would have to be custom.
The reamer should have a 0.459 shoulder and the chamber deep enough to use 280 Rem brass so a total cleanup of the chamber and throat can be achieved and the cases sized to zero head space in a custom die.

Reboring to a a larger bore like 338, 35, 375 with the 280Rem configuration would be preferable for the chamber.

I have found that functional reliability goes out the window  past 56kpsi.
With factory loads very few if any will reach that pressure in 06 type cases
because of the the oversize chambers H&R produces.

Bolt thrust, chamber pressure and action stretch would preclude most any type of magnum case at 64kpsi. The action would stretch until it quits functioning. The underlug construction is such that it will set back quite easy. This too is part of the design I think.

I think the calibers that H&R offers are all well suited for the action when factory ammo is used. Hand loading for the Handi is fraught with all sorts of problems and a great deal of caution should be exercised.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2005, 07:37:37 AM »
The 30 Newton is a viable alternative to rechambering a 308.It is not the 30-338 wildcat...and was never loaded to those pressures or velocities.It can be made from cases without dealing with any belt for those wanting to do so.Yes..it is more entailed than necking down an existing belted magnum...but never-the-less...is a viable alternative to the problems associated to making a 30-06AI.It is an obsolete cartridge...one that was far ahead of it's time,and it is a wildcat...not a factory load...and with it being a wildcat...there are different steps to go thru to make it work and more expense over using off the shelf factory ammo...but isn't this 1/2 the fun of owning and shooting one? Having something totally unique is very apealling to me.

Pressures in the Handi are and always will be the nemisis of this type of action,however,the Handis can and do operate at much higher pressures than 56k, and do so safely and quite accurately,without any problems provided some simple steps are taken to ensure it. Tthe chambers and bores have to be polished or they should be relatively smooth to begin with from the factory, and that they lock up with minimum headspace. If the rifle is woefully inaccurate to begin with...one needs to find out why before doing any rechambering or reboring and correct that problem/problems first,then look to having it changed.Some here cannot see the need to change to something else over the given factory choices available to us  now...and these fine folks are correct to a point...the factory does indeed give us a few good choices...but where they aren't correct is this is only their veiwpoint...and not someone elses...I for one want to see more caliber choices...and if I have to modify an exsisting one due to it's having an out of round chamber...excessivly long throat..or if I am just wanting to be different...then so be it..because this is what I want...and appearently others feel the same way.

These rifles aren't always sub-MOA right out of the box...some have to be really worked on to produce superb accuracy...while others produce sub-1/2" groups with minimal prep work.Some have to be shimmed,some have to have the barrels bedded,some have to have the recievers bedded when the barrel is in lock up,still others have to have a pressure point in the barrel channel of the forearm to produce consistancy.Yet each thing we do will be different on someone elses rifle due to the varied shooting styles and bench equipment we all have,there is no one perfect solution for every rifle. Most long time shooters realize that you have to work at getting a rifle to shoot accurately...& consistantly. This is a fact most folks seem to forget when dealing with our little rifles...and I don't know wither it's because they don't feel it's worth the effort or because these aren't  bolt action rifles..I can say from my own experiance with them...that they all will do better having the barrels and chambers polished prior to any shooting with them and to totally free float the barrel in the forearm by relieving the wood around the barrel in front of the stud and behind..then have a solid contact with the forearm in the barrel stud relief...and of the 2 rimmed cartridges in the Handy I've owned and shot...those being the 30-30 and the 45-70...they needed way- less than any other barrel I've owned,for prep work,but then again it is the nature of those 2 cartridges that have made them 2 of the greatest all time cartridges to begin with.

For those wanting to learn more...I suggest you pick up a copy of  The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions 3rd edition by John J Donnelly & Bryce Towsley...it has thousands of accurate drawings and instructions on which to make your own cases and detailed instuctions on case forming,and some loading data along with the velocities.It is a wealth of information and can help those wanting to expand their knowledge.

Have a Great 1 :D

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2005, 10:31:26 AM »
Mac
I suppose PO Ackley did not know what he was talking about, when he called the 30-338  the .30 Belted Newton on page 191 Vol II in his Handbook for "Shooters and Reloaders". The cartridge was first called the .30 Adolph Express by Fred Adolph of Genoa New York in 1916-17 at his request Newton designed it.

I have a picture showing the 30-06 and the 30 Newton side side full size.
Well if that Newton does not look like a short magnum without the belt  I am blind. The Newton is slightly longer than the 06 maybe 2mm. Looks like 65mm.

The 35 Newton is the same case necked up. 250gr bullet at 2765ft you can't tell me that this is not a short magnum, and that with old time powders, powders I have never seen like 15-1/2 and 17-1/2, 68gr of it..

It also says the cartridge is American. Western Cartridge Company of East Alton Ill. made loaded ammo and supplied cases for the Newton cartridges and rifles. Its a good old American cartridge by a man with vision.
Edited. By the way the 404 Jeffry has even got a bigger base than the shrot magnum. For a Handi, not for me.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2005, 10:49:50 AM »
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline stimpylu32

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2005, 12:26:13 PM »
Quick

THANK YOU  :agree:
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline EVOC ONE

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2005, 12:54:45 PM »
Whew!  What an explanation.  Thanks much gentleman.  This is why I love this site.

And Quick, thanks for the diagrams.

EVOC ONE

Offline myarmor

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2005, 01:10:43 PM »
This topic has a lot to chew on.
And raises many questions for me about other calibers.
I don't want to high jack Matts thread though.

Offline mattparliament

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2005, 01:27:44 PM »
benefit to going 30-338 and only loading up to safe handi pressures??  Or just find a 30-06...
Life is tough, it's tougher if you're stupid.  ~John Wayne

Offline Fred M

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2005, 03:28:21 PM »
Thanks Tim
Never did have the dimensions of the 30 Newton. They are very close to the 30-338. Yes the 30-338 is not a true 30 Newton but who would know if you toke the belt off.

If a guy really wanted to get exotic and make a rimmed powerful 30 cal,
halve way between the 30-06 and the 300H&H turn it into a 30 Blaser designed for the German Blaser SS break open k96. The base is .475 and the rim is .524 shoulder .443 case length 2.671 that would clean up the 308 or the 30-06. A modern SS cartridge.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline mattparliament

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2005, 04:33:12 PM »
got home and looked in some of my reloading manuals and my 270 is loaded up to 51,000 CUP, the 300 winchester magnum reloads appear to max out around 52,000 to 53,000 CUP.  I know this may open a hornets nest of debate about how pressures affect these guns.  I know this is a magnum load but the pressures don't appear to be "too" severe for the mighty handi.  What do you think???
Life is tough, it's tougher if you're stupid.  ~John Wayne

Offline Norseman112

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2005, 04:51:18 PM »
mattparliament,

You bring up a good point.  If the handi rifle can indeed  handle those kind of pressures it makes one wonder why haven't we seen the bigger calibers. I have a 300 win mag for elk hunting in a bolt gun, of course I have a nice stock on it and a good recoil pad :)

Norse

Offline Mac11700

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2005, 09:10:36 PM »
Fred:

I know PO's book very well...and have had them sitting on the desk for eons..and also of the Western Ammo company...since it is now part of Olin...and if you would pick up a copy of Frank Barnes Cartridges of the world 10th edition...and kindly look on pg.120...you will see what the factory loadings were...and to the loads I am prescribing for this cartridge...yes...we all know how Parker loved running things up to the max...but that is what he was all about anyway..and the more mundane loadings didn't interest him in the least,and these normal loadings would be just about right for the Handi..you get a good increase in velocity over the standard 30-06 loads at about 150 fps...pressures are a-bit higher but not too extreame do to the much larger case and the unused space in it..and well under the  65,000 PSI loads of the 270...by using 8 grains more powder....All the short mags...the 300 H&H mag...the 30-338 and the Weatherby magnums exceed the Newton by anywhere from 200 to 300 fps...and use considerable more powder to do it.

So you see...the thing that Parker did was to magnumtize it...make it faster or "better" as some would say...when in reality...it was already a sensable improvement over what was available at that time in 1912....and all with out a belt...and by the way...he liked using what brass was available...and since he didn't have a steady supply American brass till late in the game...he did ultilize the metric brass that was here...

Would it be too much in a Handi...no...not if a person was sensable with it...neither would a-lot of other cartridges...would others be easier to make...some would perhaps...but it only takes 1 type of brass to be f/l resized and trimmed to lenght for this one to work...and you certainly don't have to worry about barrel set-back..or trying to jam the barrel shut on a +.004" headspaced cartridge,as you would on a 30-06 AI either...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline mattparliament

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.308 changed to what????
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2005, 03:58:11 AM »
300 winchester mag, parent case is 338, 338's parent case is 375 H&H (I think) what extractor/ejector would be needed?
Life is tough, it's tougher if you're stupid.  ~John Wayne