.308 changed to what????

[Mac11700]

matt:

A belted magnum case isn't really recommended..

Mac

[Fred M]

Mac.

I really fail to understand how you can get more out of a smaller 338Win Mag than the bigger 30 Newton. By the way the 68gr powder charge of  #17-1/2 did not come from  Parker but from an old book by Phil Sharp. Even Parker had no such powder available.

Unless the dimensions supplied by Quick Tim are wrong. Here are the comparison dimensions. side by side which shows the 30 Newton to slightly bigger and consequently must have more volume. The 404 Jeffry is very much bigger. The pictures that I have confirm the size to be about as shown in the drawing.

There are a couple of modern rim less cases that come close to the Newton but more distant in dimension and bigger then the 338 Win mag. They are the Gehmann 7x66SE von Hofe and the 8x68S. At present I don't know when they where introduced.
 
What case conversion did you have in mind, you never said.

.
338 Win mag case                   30 Newton case

Base         0.513           0.522                
Base to shoulder  2.04"   2.020
Shoulder angle  25 deg   23 deg
Neck length  0.330"                    0.335"
Case length  2.500"                    2.520

Just remove the belt from the 338 Win Mag and you got a bit smaller  30 Newton. That is what I said in the first plase.

[Mac11700]

Fred:

It's not that you can't turn the belt off the 338mag case..I never said that.. because everyone one knows  you can...but for those not having access to a lathe...this would be next to impossible to do...and a additional step that certainly isn't needed...what I said was the 30 Newton isn't the 30-338 Magnum......and the dimensions that Quick posted aren't what is in my reference books...also you are missing my point entirely...you don't need to load the cartridge to the pressures of the 30-338 Magnum,to enjoy the benifits of having a cartridge that will out preform the 30-06 without having a belted magnum..Everyone ASSUMES because you have the case capacity to put up to 80 grains of powder in the case...you should...and this is not always correct...and certainly is not needed in this instance...what we are looking for here is a viable alternative to rechamber a 308 barrel...and some of the cartridges that could be used....As to Phil Sharp developing the data that is in Frank Barnes #10...that isn't correct..while he did do a-lot of work with it..this isn't his data...also..in Franks book...he list the factory load velocity..which is much less than what the cartridge can do with some of the newer powders...but I will digress...the 30 Newton is a viable alternative...it doesn't have a belt..it doesn't have to be loaded to the max( AND SHOULDN"T)..it's size will completely clean up the 308's chamber,and it can be made specificlly to that persons needs in a Handi.Loaded correctly will make this a good choice...load too hot or incorrectly...will make it a very bad choice.



Even if the person deceides to go with the 30-06 AI...unless they are again assuming they won't get back thrust do to the design..which most knowledgable folks know this really isn't the case...this new rechambered rifle still won't be capable of taking advantage of full house loads with it...you know this...so why would you want to load up the 30 Newton with modern powders to the max...you would be wasting a good rifle and money spent?...I've never advocated shooting the cartridge at it fullest potintial...not once...Why would you want a cartridge such as this ...and not load it to it's fullest potintial...simple...it will do exactly what the poster asked ....and then some if called upon.

Here's the measurements from the Handloaders Manual of Cartridge conversions 3rd edition;

case lenght=2.515"
head diameter=.524
rim diameter=.519"
neck diameter=.340"
neck lenght=.310"
shoulder lenght=.185"
body angle(deg's side)=.220
case capacitycc's=5.78

loaded lenght 3.29"
rim thickness=.05"
shoulder diameter=.51"
lenght to shoulder=2.02"
shoulder angle(deg's side) 24.67
case capacity(gr's water) 89.20

Again...the loadings I would use for this cartridge would mirror the velocities and pressure developed for the original offerings..not try to make a 30-338 magnum out of it...

Yup...it's a big cartridge...Yup...in a good bolt action it can be made to rival most of the short mags and close to the full sized magnums...but we can't do that in a Handi and expect the rifle to last...

Mac

[quickdtoo]

A bunch of cartridge specs....old and new!!!

http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/riflelist3.htm

[Mac11700]

There will always be some minor variations on obsolete cartridges from book to book..this is to be expected..some are taken off the actual case drawing,others off samples of factory ammo,and dimensional variations will exsist because of others chambering the rifle a little differently and the brass that was used for samples is different.

It's a good site with a-lot of info... :agree:

Mac

[R.W.Dale]

I stll think my suggestion for 7.5 Swiss is the best option.

[Fred M]

Mac

What case conversion did you have in mind, you never said.

I am waiting for you to tell me.

You are spliting hairs with your dimensions. Who is to says which ones are right. I said the 30 Newton is not a good cartridge for the Handi. What is the point of a large capacity case when you can't use it and don't have loading data. Besides reduced loads can be very bad in big cases. I am surprised you advocate it.

I said if you want a 30 Newton turn the belt off. Whether you have the means to do it is not the point here. Also tuning off belts and rims is done all the time by sophisticated hand loaders. It is quite simple.

I will rest my case.

[quickdtoo]

This is the only load data that I found for the 30 Newton or 30 Adolf Express as it was called....

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_all.asp?CaliberID=182

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=182

[Fred M]

The 7.5 Swiss is a good conversion same power as the 06.

150 gr Horn SP. 54gr Reloder 15,  3031ft/sec, 24" barrel, 58732psi,  max load. Case vol 65 gr HO2. Fill ratio 95.8%. Start this load with 50.0 gr of Relo 15.

Dimensinons will clean up the the 308 Win. Is it worth it ??

[R.W.Dale]

The 7.5 Swiss is a good conversion same power as the 06.

150 gr Horn SP. 54gr Reloder 15,  3031ft/sec, 24" barrel, 58732psi,  max load. Case vol 65 gr HO2. Fill ratio 95.8%. Start this load with 50.0 gr of Relo 15.

Dimensinons will clean up the the 308 Win. Is it worth it ??

 Depends on weither or not you own or plan on getting a k31. Plus dies are cheap and the factory gp11 load is pretty much match grade.

[Lost Okie]

Mattparliment; I also have a 308 and have been wanting something else.  Have an 06, 35 whelen but just want something different.  Liked the idea of the 358, but cost of rebore is a tad higher than reaming the chamber out.  Lots of wildcats out there tho...  Personnaly don't see the 7.5 swiss, its just another 06 to me.  with the 358 you could take advantage of the lightweight cast pistol bullets for target practice, would be a sweet little gun.......

[Mac11700]

What is the point of a large capacity case when you can't use it and don't have loading data. Besides reduced loads can be very bad in big cases. I am surprised you advocate it.

Well...if you had either of the 2 books I mentioned...you would have loading data...and case forming instructions.It's readily available to those truely interested..

As to reduced loads...reduced from what?...Read what I said Fred...I advocate theoriginal loading data for the durn cartidge...get it...I don't advocate reducing any more than the original loadings... and I don't advocate filling it up to the max and ruining that persons rifle...What good is it...well geee...hmmm let me think about it...hmmm...maybe because it will work...maybe because if loaded sensably it will give a fair increase over the 30-06...and maybe...just maybe...it might be what the poster is looking for...did you ever think about that?...Why won't it work Fred...you think you have to load it up to the max to make it worth while?Do you think you have to go to all the trouble to turn rims and belts to make it worthy of your time...Maybe if I had your set up...I might feel inclined that way also...but...I don't and honestly most others don't either...

You may have the means to turn off the belts and rims..but I would wager the vast majority of folks don't,does that make me and them  un-sophisticated? ...Perhaps...perhaps not...either way...running a 150 grain bullet out at 3000-3100 fps isn't to shabby...and certainly is workable in my book...

Oh...and Fred....your right...with one of the cartridges that will work...but there is another..

Mac

[only1asterisk]

A friend directed me to this thread.  I've owned several 30 and 35 Newton rifles and handloaded for them for some time.

The cartridge case dimensions for the 30 Newton are difficult to pin down.  I have copies of a set of Western Cartridge specifications that Jamison International found that are different from anything that I've ever seen published or measured (but not so much that they wouldn't work in any Newton rifle I've seen.  The chambers define the cartridge more than the case specs and every Newton chamber I've ever dealt with has been oversized by modern standards.  I've heard of rifles that would accept 308 Norma Mag brass without the belt turned off.  You wouldn't be wrong to say that the Newton case is something between .520" and .530 at the head.  When Dick Speer made the last run of Newton brass they were .525" at the head and the rim, splitting the difference.  You can make usable brass from 8x68s or 280 Ross basic with the rim turned off.  The Ross cases fit the large chambers well, but are a lot of work.  The 8x68s cases are very strong and work well.  I've only every heard of one rifle that had trouble with the extractor not gripping the undersized rim.

The original claimed velocity for the 30 Newton was 2860 fps.  This is about the same as current 300 H&H Magnum loads with the same case capacity.  Original claimed ballistics will be about 49-54k CUP (53-58k PSI) with modern powders.  I wouldn’t  want to run this in a Handi-Rifle.  While some of the smaller rounds generate equal or higher peak pressures, this is not entirely the concern (in and of itself).  The concern is increased bolt thrust.  Jumping from the 30-06 case diameter to the 30 Newton increases the bolt thrust about 20% (pressure being equal). This is the reason Handi's aren't made in the various larger diameter magnum cases.

I'm sorry for the long rambling post, it's late and I'm tired.

I think you could rechamber for the 7.63x54R or 7.5x55 and use current American load data intended for surplus rifles.  While unique, neither would quite be equal to the 30-06.

[Fred M]

Mac.

your right...with one of the cartridges that will work...but there is another..

I have been waiting for you to tell me what your parent case is. I have ask a couple times. Not that I would ever make use of  a Newton in a Handi.

But here is what my friends in Africa do. El Cheapo version. Take a 308 Win reamer and run it in deep to 30-06 length and fireform 06 brass with a second shoulder. It is a 30-06 Imp. Uses the 308 dies with a spacer. They also do it with a 7mm-08 using a 270 280 or 06 brass whatever is available cheap. It is simple to make with simple tools.

Now that would fly in a Handi  

only1astric shed some good light on the topic.  I have a model 70 Win in 300 Win Mag. If I was getting any use out of that rifle I would turn it into a 30-338 Belted Newton.

[jerkface11]

7.5x55 swiss is probably the best choice. You can buy ammo from several sources privi partisan, wolf, hornady, milsurp. It will clean up the chamber of a .308. And it would be safe in a handi rifle. Of course it's pretty much the balistic twin of .308. So if you're changing chamberings for more power there's no point. But if you just don't want it to be a .308 anymore it would be great.

[Mac11700]

Welcome Aboard  
 
Wow..you've owned several of these rifles ehh...must be nice...to have owned several exceedingly rare rifles...Were these actually Newton rifles..or ones just chambered so...?
 
Yes...the 8x68s brass is very strong and is the best canidate for making the brass...and as I said case dimensions do vary...but if one does the math ..one will see that a 53,000 PSI load in a 30 Newton is not going to produce more back thrust than a full house SAMMI rated 500 S&W cartridge...which happens to be rated at 60,000 PSI..nor is the back thrust anymore than that already being put on the receiver by a 65,000 PSI 270 load...so as to the strenght of the action...NEF doesn't see a problem doing it......so I can't see it being one either...While the NEF Handi certainly isn't as strong as a good bolt action...it isn't as weak as some have advocated either.
 
If a person was going to load for a case like this in a Handi..he should do so cautiously...as one should anytime reloading...and they should slowly work up the loads in small increments..This cartridge could be loaded obstinsivly hotter than any chambered in the Handi...just as many other wildcats or otherwise obsolete cartridge could be...but it doesn't have to be...to work...and the original loadings for this bears this out...It's up to the individual loading for it to set the parameters for it to function...As you know...one can't run down to Walley world to buy ammo for it...and that really isn't figuring into this topic...since the original poster asked what could a 308 Handi be rechambered to...There is data available for this cartridge...and that is a good starting point for load development...one could get crazy with it...and try to push it to the max...but I don't see that happening here...and it  was never conveyed  as the posters intent...
 
Mac

[only1asterisk]

Mac11700,

Thanks for the welcome.  What is and isn't a Newton Rifle is open to debate.  Newton was in and out of the rifle business 4 or 5 times in about 20 years and even today people sell rifles with his name on them.  The only Newton made rifle I have ever had was a Buffalo Newton Arms in 30 Newton.  It was a novel rifle and even today prices are not that high.  Other than that I've had a 30 Newton custom built on a Springfield action, another Spingfield in 256 Newton with a Newton barrel but a replacement stock and a 35 Newton on a mauser action.

[mattparliament]

Keep It as is, shoot as is ebjoy, Or sell it to some one
 that can enjoy just my 2 cents, :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D
 Marv.

Took your advice Marv and sold it to Tom.  Thanks for all the good info guys!  This turned out to be a really interesting thread...