Author Topic: DOES 10MM HAVE MORE POWER THE 357 MAG? (Read 2145 times)

msorenso · « **on:** October 10, 2005, 09:22:31 AM »

DOES 10MM HAVE MORE POWER THE 357 MAG?

mr.frosty · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2005, 09:56:54 AM »

i think its less a 10 mm is a hotter .40cal

knight0334 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2005, 10:17:54 AM »

The 357 can be cranked up alot farther then any 10mm gun can handle.

Factory loads are about the same muzzle energy for the 10mm and .357mag. ...some slight variances.

But I've yet to see a 10mm load for any pistol that can equal the energy of my 125gr JHP's @ 1920fps out of my 8" Python. 1000+ft lb... More energy then most factory 44mag(750-800ft lbs) loads by about the power of a .38spl.

I guess it depends on your weapon, ammo, and definition of "power".

Savage · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2005, 03:16:30 PM »

Of course ME alone is not the bottom line in wounding ballistics. From a pratical standpoint, I doubt that very many of us are carrying an 8" revolver for cc. For that purpose a comparison would need to be made using a 4" .357 revolver and a 5" full size auto in 10mm. Both using factory ammo. In this comparison, the 10mm would have a slight edge.
Savage

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2005, 03:24:37 PM »

my speer manuel lists the heaviest bullet for a 357 (that average joe has access to) as a 158 grain bullet @ 1253 FPS out of a 6" barrel. most 357 158 loads are going to be close to this.

they also list 10mm as having 200 grain bullets @ 1216 fps out of a 5 inch barrel.

that is a heavier bullet moving just as fast. more power.

then add the added capacity of a 10 over a 357, and the race is about over.

now a 357 can be loaded to have a bit more, but it isnt really a fair comparison if you are hot loading one and not the other. besides, i use strictly published info for reloading anyway (and still have all my fingers as proof).

this is why a glock 20 is my pistol of choice in black bear country.

CJ · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2005, 06:30:04 PM »

A lot of people dont handload, so CorBon factory loads {pretty hot factory ammo} lists
10mm 180gr @1300fps 696ftlbs energy
200gr @1200fps 640
357 180gr @1265fps 640
200gr @1200fps 640
Kinda surprised, I thought the 10mm was supposed to be closer to a .41mag than a .357. 10mm gets a fatter bullet, a plus in my book. Higher capacity, a plus for some, not me. Not quite sporting to compare an eight inch .357 bbl with four or five inch 10mm bbl. All said and done I own 5 .357s, four revolvers and a lever and a grand total of 0 10mms.
Hmmmmm.

Savage · « **Reply #6 on:** October 11, 2005, 05:41:05 AM »

CJ,
Enlightning post! I had no idea that CorBon offered 200gr loaded ammo in .357. Either the 180 or the 200 would make a decent whitetail load. Wonder if those velocites were were taken using a test barrel? Think I'll cruise over there and check it out.
Savage

Savage · « **Reply #7 on:** October 11, 2005, 06:04:26 AM »

No luck so far at the CorBon site on barrel length of the test guns. If anyone has a link to this info please post. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking as time permits. Knight0334, I wonder what kind of pressures you're getting in your handloads with 30% move velocity than the 125gr CorBon load?
Thanks,
Savage

msorenso · « **Reply #8 on:** October 11, 2005, 08:19:24 AM »

knight0334,
Who made those hot 10mm loads. Also what type of gun is the python? Thanks!

Savage · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2005, 09:31:34 AM »

msorenso,
The load referenced by knight0334 is a .357 load. The Python is a Colt .357 revolver.
Savage

CJ · « **Reply #10 on:** October 11, 2005, 06:13:49 PM »

Savage,
Didnt see any bbl length on Cor Bons site either. Maybe email them and ask? The 180gr .357s are real nice out of my Blackhawk. I havn't shot 125gr .357s in a long time, Ive come to consider 158s as light bullets these days. A 125gr @ 1900 seems pretty warm to this old handloader. Took 2 javelina with 2 shots last year in San Antonio with Hornady 140jhp @ 1300fps. Little over 75 yds. Cheated and used the Marlin.

PaulS · « **Reply #11 on:** October 11, 2005, 07:36:04 PM »

The 10mm was developed after the feds got disappointing results from the 9mm. The ballistics were supposed to mimic the .357 mag for penetration and ballistics. It was after the 10mm was found to be hard to control that the .40 was made. It is a cut down 10mm and not the otherway around.

Which is better? I carry a .357 six inch because I have NEVER had a failure to feed or fail to return to battery with it. I HAVE had those problems with autos.

PaulS

Savage · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2005, 10:38:21 AM »

Thanks, CJ. Those velocities from CB were taken from a test barrel/universal receiver. I'd wager. I did a bit of playing with .357 loads myself back in the 70s. I got my hands on some of the old "Super Vel" bullets in the 110gr weights. I used several of the powders available then and finally settled on CCI magnum primers and H110 in Norma brass. Didn't have a chrono then, so we just worked our way up till there were excessive pressure signs. I got some off the charts velocities in a 6" barrel. No where near what knight0334 is getting, (assuming he is using a good chrono.)
Savage

msorenso · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2005, 11:38:53 AM »

Thanks for all the info. Anyone else feel free!

CJ · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2005, 06:30:41 PM »

Savage,
Direct quote from CorBons Q&A page

Q: Are those velocities on your boxes for real?
A: Yes; these are from real guns - S&W, Glock, SIG, Colt, Taurus etc.. Guns in use here at the plant. Many people call and note their guns give even higher velocities. We never exaggerate stated performance. We don't have to at Cor-Bon. Don't forget too, there are "slow guns" and "fast guns".

I did email them to ask about bbl lengths and specific firearms used, if they answer I'll post it up. Interestingly their self defence 125gr .357 clocks 1450fps. Also their 140gr lists 1325, mine go 1300 from my Marlin. I guess I may be a little over cautious when I'm loading.

PaulS · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2005, 08:42:21 PM »

My handloads are not "high pressure" loads as they come out of the manuals and fall within the "near maximum" load catagory.

I shoot a 140 grain Speer HP at 1464 FPS with H110 and a CCI magnum primer. In an identical revolver it shoots 1412 FPS. Both handguns are Ruger, 6 inch, Security-six's. My brother's must have a bit tighter barrel although we get the same level of accuracy from them.

PaulS

Savage · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2005, 04:51:56 AM »

Thanks for the info CJ. PaulS, have you loaded any of the 125s at load manual maximum and run them over the chrono? That might be a project for me in the future. I would like to duplicate my old loads and clock them in one of my 6" guns. I don't shoot much 38/357 these days, mostly 9s/.45s loaded to make IDPA power factor.
Savage

CJ · « **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2005, 07:06:57 AM »

Savage,
Cor Bon impresses in more ways than one. I emailed them laaaate last night after work and got a reply today.

Quote

"10mm 180 BCSP and 200 Penetrator loads are velocity tested using a Glock M20. The 357 Mag 180 BCSP is tested from a S&W 686."

Mike Shovel
Sales Manager
COR-BON/Glaser

No bbl lenghts, but sure narrows it down. Is 6 inchs the longest 686 tube?

Savage · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2005, 10:47:20 AM »

CJ,
I do believe 6" in 686 is as long as it gets. I have to confess to never having known anyone who owned one. The 4" is quite common and one of my favorite revolvers in a full size. I do have an old Security Six in 6"for falling plates. Way too long and awkward for anything but open carry, strong side. Thanks for the info. It looks like CorBon is publishing real world velocities!
Savage

PaulS · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2005, 01:56:33 PM »

Savage,
I have tested the 125s in my gun but I had trouble with getting even 1400 fps from them. The 125's need a powder that is faster than H110 (not enough volume to get the pressures needed) and slower than most of the other powders recommended. (I didn't try all the possibilities) The 140's are accurate to 75 yards 2 inch groups are routine) in my weapons and give adequate velocity and consistancy to use for all my purposes.
On the note of carrying a six inch revolver - I carry mine concealed in a pancake holster (custom made) on the strong side. In operation it is carried high but not so high that I can't grab it fast if need be. The tip of the holster drops only three inches below the belt line and the muzzle is a half inch inside the holster. It's a lot easier than the shoulder holster I used to use and a lot more comfortable.

PaulS

Sir Knight · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2005, 08:57:17 PM »

Quote from: PaulS

Which is better? I carry a .357 six inch because I have NEVER had a failure to feed or fail to return to battery with it. I HAVE had those problems with autos.

Ahh, but if a revolver siezes up on ya (and I've had this happen at the range with a S&W 342), you're pretty much done but a jammed autoloader can be cleared of the jam and continue firing.

Old Griz · « **Reply #21 on:** October 14, 2005, 10:11:03 PM »

:cb2: I'm no expert, but the only time I have had a revolver seize up at the range, it had fired over 250 rounds of reloads, and it was pretty dirty by that time. I can't imagine anyone with a carry permit/license carrying a gun in that conditionbut stranger things have happened! My carry gun, revolver or auto, is gonna be clean, well fed, and ready to go.

JOE MACK · « **Reply #22 on:** October 14, 2005, 11:17:51 PM »

Quote from: knight0334

The 357 can be cranked up alot farther then any 10mm gun can handle.

Factory loads are about the same muzzle energy for the 10mm and .357mag. ...some slight variances.

But I've yet to see a 10mm load for any pistol that can equal the energy of my 125gr JHP's @ 1920fps out of my 8" Python. 1000+ft lb... More energy then most factory 44mag(750-800ft lbs) loads by about the power of a .38spl.

I guess it depends on your weapon, ammo, and definition of "power".

Whoa! That's a pretty stout load for a python. I predict you'll shoot it loose fast with a steady diet. Pythons are known to be fairly fragile. I sure wouldn't put any of those in my Sadowski tuned 6 inch Python. :shock:

In the S&W 610, the 10mm can be loaded to near .41Magnum levels. This isn't even including a Ruger Blackhawk, or Contender. The 610 has been rechambered for the 10mm magnum, too. I would have to say that a top-end commercially loaded 10mm (DT, CB, or BB) will beat out a commercially loaded .357magnum being shot through the same model firearm with identical barrel lengths. It's called case capacity. :wink:

CJ · « **Reply #23 on:** October 15, 2005, 03:55:36 PM »

IMHO revolvers get the nod for reliability. But a quality auto that is maintained is pretty trouble free also. If they were not, military, police, etc would not use them. Things that I have seen jam a revolver include
Unburnt powder under the ejector.
Backed out and/or high primer.
Squib load between chamber and bbl. {bullet stuck in bbl would put an auto out of service also}
Bullets pulling out of cases. {would stop an auto}
Ejector rod unscrewing. {lotsa fun}
And I agree with Sir Knight that a stopped revolver is a much bigger problem than a jammed auto.

Sir Knight · « **Reply #24 on:** October 15, 2005, 11:05:19 PM »

Quote from: Old Griz

:cb2: I'm no expert, but the only time I have had a revolver seize up at the range, it had fired over 250 rounds of reloads, and it was pretty dirty by that time. I can't imagine anyone with a carry permit/license carrying a gun in that conditionbut stranger things have happened! My carry gun, revolver or auto, is gonna be clean, well fed, and ready to go.

S&W342 factory new out of the box siezed up on me at the range after less than half a box of factory ammo.

Mikey · « **Reply #25 on:** October 17, 2005, 02:38:31 AM »

The best 357 magnum load I have ever used is with a 200 gn swc bullet from Colorado Cast Bullets over a factory Winchester powder charge of 12.4 grains of WW296 for their stated 1335'/sec (don't know the barrel length). I have killed whitetail and black bear with that load from 4 and 6" barrelled 357s.

The 357 is extremely versatile, moreso than the 10mm. With the 357 you can use bullets ranging from 9mm stuff to 200 - 250 gns (35 cal rifle bullet). The 10mm goes from about 135 - 200 grains and is on the lighter side of 41 mag loads.

Cor-Bon has always hyped their loads but I have seen and done better with proper reloading. My 200 gn 357 loads are lower pressure loads than the 158 grain loads and all my shells extract very easily. HTH. Mikey.

Savage · « **Reply #26 on:** October 17, 2005, 04:48:54 AM »

Mikey,
No doubt the .357 is about the most versatile handgun cartridge around, at least in my mind. With heavy bullets it's even adequate for light skinned deer sized game at reasonable ranges. I think the problems start when someone tries to make a 44 mag out of one. I am thankful that the poster claiming 1920fps with the 125gr bullet didn't post his recipe. Someone with limited experience and poor judgement might attempt to duplicate it. I own and load for both the .357/10mm rounds. I give the nod to the 10mm for a CQB handgun due to platform and capacity. If you really wanted to use the 10mm as a hunting arm, a good S&W revolver might be the ticket. You could have Lee make up a bullet mold for the .400 dia bullet in the heavier weights. The deer around here are not so tough that they can't be dropped with a well placed 180gr 10mm from an auto if need be! By the way, you never did send me your load data for the 200gr LSWC in the 2" 38spl. Wanted to give it a try.
Savage

jro45 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 23, 2005, 03:33:12 AM »

NO. The 10 has more bullets to fire but the 357 mag has more fps. Its like apples to apples at 10 yds what difference does it make. For longer shots the 357 is the way to go.

ArmaLube · « **Reply #28 on:** October 23, 2005, 01:11:50 PM »

To debate ballistic comparisons of the 10mm and .357 Magnum is to fritter away ones time in a hair splitting contest. There is just no point to such a discussion.

The important consideration is that the 10mm is a pistol round and the .357 Magnum is a revolver round. Thus, these two excellent high performance cartridges represent different handgun categories. For pistol fans, the 10mm is amazingly advantageous and often supported by relatively high magazine capacities. In wheelguns, .357 Magnums are fabulous.

The choice centers around handgun mechanics not ballistic performance.

ArmaLube

Mikey · « **Reply #29 on:** October 23, 2005, 01:21:58 PM »

Savage - just exactly what you said. Sorry about that 38 Spl load - it is 3.8 gn of WW231 for a listed 770'/sec (most probably from a longer barrel than a snubbie). Pressures are the same as standard 158 gn loads and extract easily from my chambers. Mikey.