The Argument for and againist Mapping GPS units!

[Siskiyou]

I have to be up front I am in favor of mapping gps units over non-mapping gps units.  I can relate to them and they provide me with key information.  I believe the following posters represent the big three gps manufactures, MI VHNTR, daddywpb, Dave in WV, Dakota Elk Slayer, Victorcharlie, and EsoxLucius.  They represent the big three gps manufactures, who are Garmin, Magellan, and Lowrance.  

I invite all users and brands to take part in this forum.

What is the basic argument in favor of a non-mapping gps unit.  Lower cost.  Normally your bottomline mapping gps unit cost fifty dollars more, and software cost you another hundred dollars.  So you have just doubled the cost of a gps unit when you add the software.

In favor of the mapping gps unit is that many of them come with a built in base map that covers the North America and Canada.  They may also cover very lightly some of the major highways in Mexico.  Do not expect much when it comes Mexico.  I have had very good luck using the built in base map in areas that I have not loaded topo software.

Manufactures are also offering gps units with a base map but do not allow for additional maps to be loaded on the unit.  "Most" mapping gps units will only accept mapping software produced by the makers company.  Like everything there are exceptions.  Such as the highend Garmin PDA.  But it does not meet the standards for an outdoorsmens rain or shine gps.

A couple of years ago I was invited to bring my fishing boat  and spend a few days on a friends house boat.  We would live on the houseboat and fishing from mine.  A big safety issue on the lake was as the water level dropped ridge tops  would come to the surface or be just below it.  During the summer the level in this lake may drop more then 100 feet.  The topo software in my gps unit alerted me to this hazards.  Of course one man's hazard is another man's fish habitate.  Every year people are injured or killed on this lake running aground.  Another benefit is that the unfamiliar lake had hundreds of miles of shoreline, with a number of inlets and covers.  An easy place to get lost.

Another nice option in mapping gps units loaded with topo software is points of interest.  California is famous for it's gold rush.  But there are a lot of risk associtated with old mines.  One must use caution around them.  Years back I drove up to the end of a dirt road and started walking around the area.  The ground collasped underneath me, and I was lucky to catch my self.  I had fallen into an airshaft of a mine.  

Now go to POI(points of interest) and many of the mines show up on the gps unit near my location.

The source of topo software in the US is from the USGS.  Manufactures then modify it and "key" the software so their product will reconize it.  I understand that the source for topo software covering Canada is from the government.  I have read the Mexican government wants so much for their mapping information that manufactures have not purchased it.  There must not be enough demand to justify the price.

There is an arguement for the non-mapping gps for the hunter or fishmen who always works the same piece of ground  year after year.  I think that having one to give to a kid when out camping is also good.  When you arrive at your campsite you can create a waypoint for the site so they can find there way back.  (For years my Dad kept dropping us boys off in the woods and we always found our way back.)

There are a lot of benefits to a gps be it mapping or non-mapping.  But you must take the time to learn how to use it.  A friend had his gps for a couple of years and said that it would be great to mark game.  The problem was that when he wounded a bear in steep timber country he did not know how to use the gps.  He could not mark the spot he shot the bear, nor could he find his way back to the location.  

The lowest price gps will do the job for you but you need to know how to use it.  The higher price gps loaded with topo software will show that road over the next ridge, or the lake up canyon from your location.

When emergency service workers were sent to the Gulf Coast recently many of them had gps units.  How would you like to be in the situation of being placed in an emergency situation and you cannot related to your location or the land mass.  All the street signs are under water.  MI VHNTR new software package could be the answer.

Yesterday an officer was sent out into a unfamirlar, remote area to patrol.  Around noon the officer called dispatch and said that a law enforcement contact was in progress.  The officer gave the landmark and a gps reading.  But when the dispatcher entered the lat/long in the CAD(computer aided dispatch) the location showed as a different near by lake.  If the officer had a mapping gps unit he would have known which lake he was at.  This would have been critical for a medical aid or there was a need for back-up.  I am sure that those who live in areas in which there are numerous small lakes next to each other can understand the problem.

You do not have the money to buy both the gps unit and the software at the same time.  Buy the mapping gps first, and get the mapping software later.  You will get a built in base map.  I own a gps/fishfinder.  I have not purchased the mapping software for it because it does not cover the lakes I fish.  I am always creating waypoints for fish and tracks for areas I troll.  But I am using my handheld mapping gps for the land base.

[Siskiyou]

I little update on the use of my mapping gps.  I have accumulated a lot of hours on my gps this hunting season.  Most of my hunting is on National Forest or on BLM lands.  I returned to an area that I had not been in over ten years.  Since my last visit a Forest fire burn a few thousand acres.  Part of the area was logged, and changes had occurred.  Big visual changes.  A tough area to figure out.  The area is broken up by numerous cliffs, small streams, and some private land.  A few well placed no trespassing signs would make one think the whole mountain is private land.  Just the opposite is true.

Working with a Forest Service map and my mapping gps I found the correct route without trespassing.  The toughest spot was at a three-way intersection where public land and private lands came together.  Old memories also came into play.  At first I took the right hand road.  After going about 100 yards I checked the map page on my gps loaded with Garmin's Topo software.  The screen displayed my location on the road.  I quickly realized I on was on the wrong road.  I next took the far left road and found my self back into the NF.  I realized I wanted to do some serious ground pounding in this area.  I was now orientated to the area and the road system.

On my way out I took the middle road.  I created a couple of waypoints on this road.  They would serve to orientate me when hunting off the higher elevation left road.  A deep drainage split the area up.  I created the waypoints at locations that provide a view of the far side hill.  These locations gave me places to bring a deer out if I was lucky.

Late the next day when  hiking back to my pickup I spotted what appeared to be tracks of a buck crossing the road.  Because of earlier passage I knew the tracks had to be made in the last few hours.  I was concerned because the track indicated the deer was in the escape mode.  But it was next to the last day of the season.  After tracking some distance I checked my gps and found I was heading for a waypoint on the middle road.  I did not want to push the deer down on the road.  I should have backed off earlier and set up on the trail the following day.  The way point was about half mile out.  I turned back when rifle fire broke out along the road.  I had the tools and should have turn back earlier.  

Any time you move in the woods towards a road you are somebodys dog.  Years ago my brothers and I pushed a bunch of bucks right on to a road.  The resulting gunfire left us pin behind a log for a short time.

[victorcharlie]

Capability........is the main reason for getting a gps with mapping software.......simply, they offer the user more information, there for increasing the usefulness of the device to the user............In the technology world today, product life cycles are growing shorter and shorter and for most electronic devices are now at about 18 months...........so, if a fellow buys the latest and greatest planned obsolescence is only a year and a half down the road............however, if the device has the capability a user needs then although the device is obsolete it is still useful and the 18 months is extended, usually until failure of the device and then only when the cost of repair is such that it's more cost effective to replace it with a new one..........
 
That said, an entry level device that doesn't have the capability one needs will never make you happy.........Entry level devices are just that......meant for one to get his feet wet then only to be upgraded later............If you don't need the extra functionality that a mapping unit provides then it doesn't make sense to buy a more expensive unit........
 
In my case, I enjoy using mine, travel frequently, (at least in the past) and as I use it more I wish for more and more features.......usually to make the GPS faster and easier to use..........bigger screen, color display, more user friendly software that doesn't require a fellow to drill down through so many screens to get where you want to be.......voice recognition and the ability to use the device hands free would be a huge leap in technology.........Oh well.....just way a year and a half or so......It'll all be different!

The key is, you have to use them enough to become familiar with them......the more you use a GPS the more it becomes like a hammer, screwdriver, or any other tool you use day in and day out........

[Dave in WV]

I went with the Garmin 60C after reading input from, Siskiyou, and others. I used the logic and thought process I used when I had this computer built a few years ago. I was going to get an intro unit at first. I glad I didn't. the battery life is longer on the unit I chose as well as being able to be updated and I can buy topo maps to install on it. The technology canges monthly in electronics. The best way to offset that is buy what you need with an open eye to the future. If you buy more capability from the start your purchase with serve you for several years doing what you need. An intro unit will work but will fall behind faster since most of them can't be updated. Just my :money: .

Thanks to Siskiyou for being a great moderator. Thanks to all that helped me decide which unit to buy. Dave

[msar24]

being and avid hunter and a member of the county search and rescue unit I am a big fan of mapping gps units.  Our entire search and rescue group use the Garmin Rino 120s.  Granted that other untis having better mapping capabilities and bigger screens, but these untis also provide us with the radio capabilities and the ability to transmit positions to each other.  One thing I found was that most people did not relaize that you can retransmit another persons position.  This gives us the ability to transmit positions back to base for those people too far to reach the base via radio.  We can also see everyones position and then track to it if needed.

I use my extensively for hunting as well.  I make trails, roads, you name it and then download into my PC.  I use Garmin's MapSource and National Geographic's Topo.  I prefer Topo but the data has to be "cleaned up" in Map source before I can have it come up correctly in Topo.

Several peopel I've talked to that bought the "entry" level models later bought something with mapping capabilites since knowing their coordinates didn't mean much to them.

[Siskiyou]

Thanks Dave.  The Boss might step on my fingers because of the space this might take.

This may get a little long it is part of my Fine Reduction Program.  Chapter I

                           
                     Dollars out of your pocket!

Get caught hunting or fishing in the wrong location can cost you equipment, your vehicle, and a fat fine.  It is the hunters, or fisherman's responsibility to make sure they are in the right location at the right time.  The game wardens have heard all the stories.  So what tools can you use in our electronic world to keep from contributing to the County F&G Fine Money Fund?(F&G = Fish and Game).  Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable legal excuse.

Most of you would say "Old Siskiyou" would reach for his gps first.  Sorry, if that is you answer you are wrong.  The first thing I would reach for is a copy of the hunting regulations.  It might be a hard copy from the F&G or in this electronic age I can go to the F&G home page and print a copy.  California has now developed the Jigsaw Puzzle method of game management.  I first encountered this in Colorado years ago.  When I was a kid California had two Zones, A and B.  Basically the State was split into an Eastside (Mule Deer) and Westside (Blacktail) Zones.  Later the State adopted management by Herd and created the Jigsaw Puzzle of Zone maps.

Sounds simple enough, but God also created neighboring Oregon, Nevada, and Arizona.  From experience I can tell you determining where the State Line is located West of I-5 over the Klamath-Siskiyou Mountains is not an easy task.  The State line is not where you would expect it to be.  In past history the States have been in court a number of times in disputes over the Stateline.  During the 60's private lumber companies and then the Forest Service punched in a number of logging roads.  It is not the responsibility of the lumber companies or the Forest Service to post State boundaries.  Many of these roads twisted back and forth across the State Line.  In the distance past I recall few if any signs identifying the State Line.  A recent chat with my brother disclosed that there are a few small signs along the State Line but they are few and far between.  And even with over thirty years of knowledge one can still get turned around up there.

So the Northern Boundary for both California and Nevada is N42 00.00(42Parallel)?  I am now reaching for my Garmin Map76C.  I am a visual person and the color gps have advantages.  Using Garmins MapSource USA Topo and USGS California State Series I can create a number of waypoints along the State Line using my computer.  The final product can be loaded onto my two mapping gps units.  Sounds simple, but when applying the cursor to the State Boundary as depicted on the maps, the boundary is not always at N42.  In approximately 1849 the US and the British put together a treaty concerning the Oregon Territory.  The treaty placed the boundary at the 42 Parallel.  But other factors have come into play and the boundary is slightly North of the 42 Parallel.  

The hunter-gps user needs to use caution.  I back my waypoints off of the State Boundary a little bit.  I will call them COB1, COB2, COB3, and so forth.  (COB=CALIFORNIA-OREGON BOUNDARY)  I will use a Skull and Cross Bones symbol to mark these waypoints.  The 76C and other late model Garmin Gps units have the ability to create Proximity Waypoints.  This allows you to establish waypoints with alarm circles around them.  The alarm helps you avoid restricted locations.  In this case the wrong side of the state Line.  

Members, if you have a gps from another manufacture that has a similar characteristics please let us know.  I prefer to load the waypoints in this example from the computer to the gps.  You can also create the waypoints by hand directly into your gps.

I found that the scale of the gps map affects the accuracy of the waypoint.  When working with MapSource USA Topo I generated a test waypoint at a larger scale on my computer.  I then reduced the scale to 80 feet and created a final waypoint for loading into a gps.  Experiments show the difference in the large-scale waypoint to the edited waypoint can be up to .8 mile(s).  Always edit at the smallest scale so that you are not over the boundary.

to be continued.



[/i][/b]

[Siskiyou]

Dollars out of your pocket, chapter 2

I am using California as an example but you can insert the name of your State and also find boundary disputes.

The California regulations do a fair job of describing the boundaries of each Zone.  The regulations take you up the Interstate, to a County Road #, and then to Forest Service Road #42NXX.   But when it comes to the State Line, they just call it the State Line.  The regulations fail to provide a description of the State Line.  If you refer to the Klamath National Forest Recreation Map you will find the surveyors have created little "cheater" sections placing the State line North of the 42 Parallel.  A little bit like adding some grouting.

A quick look at Oregon hunting regulations and they refer you to Forest Service and BLM maps.  I think they could do a little better job by adopting the maps on their website and show unit boundaries.  Maybe they could provide a better description of the State Boundary then California.

Having reviewed the regulations for California and Oregon, and the location the State boundary is shown on Forest Service maps, on USGS maps, an by my Garmin MapSource USA Topo I will use the State boundary as shown slightly North of the 42 Parallel.  At most we are looking at a very short distance.

Now remember you are not using a surveying grade gps unit.  And depending on the number of satellites you are receiving your level of accuracy will very.  Do not play a challenge match with the authorities over the accuracy of our gps.  I treat the State Line like it is the International Border into Mexico.  State boundaries have been subject of numerous legal actions between the States.  As late as 2000 the Supreme Court appointed a Special Master to deal with the Southern leg of the California-nevada State boundary.  Surveys have place the California-nevada Boundary in Lake Tahoe in two or more locations.  For years that dispute kept the Courts busy.  This involves high dollar property, unlike the Oregon-Nevada boundary.

So now you have drawn your Deer zone and it is bordered on three sides by other Zones in which you cannot hunt.  This fall I downloaded the descriptive information for the Zone I had a tag for.  There was corner of the Zone that I was not really sure of the boundaries.  I then traced the boundaries on a Forest Service Map using a high lighter.  I then took the opportunity to make a pre-season scouting trip to the area.  Using the Track Log function I created a track of the road system that divided the Zones.  I also created a few waypoints at key locations.  I did not see any signing from the F&G regarding the Zone Boundaries.  A key Forest Service sign had be destroyed at an important junction.  Witnessed by the broke signpost.  So again it is up to the hunter to protect himself by knowing his location.

A real neat tool when I am out driving boundaries and creating TRACKS is hooking my gps to my laptop.  The large screen provides a better over all view.  Zone boundaries are easy to trace when they are identifiable roads or the Pacific Crest Trail.  But a State Boundary near the 42nd Parallel mabe another task.  Just look at the Court record.

A mapping gps displays your tracks, and waypoints on your loaded mapping software.  By expanding the scale you can see other roads, streams, or a powerline.  Using the POI feature you can locate other landmarks.  One of the landmarks that show on the mapping software is the State Boundary.  Lowrance mapping software shows wildlife areas in "some" States.  You will also find names of major mountains, mines, and other locations.

A few years ago the F&G did a study of hunter activity along the NE corner of the State.  A number of hunters expressed their dissatisfaction with the conditions of the deer heard in a certain area.  The biologist made cryptic note that the canyon was in Nevada, not California.  I pulled out a USGS topo map and found the canyon was both in California and Nevada.  So who was right?

[Siskiyou]

msar24:  There is a lot of interest in the Rhino because of the features you describe.  I would not be surprised if the Rhino 520/530 with five watts become a standard for volunteer SAR teams.  It is easier to use them in the team mode with each member buying their own.  The price is tough on the family at $500.00 a shot.  But is it a very good deal.  You should start a thread on your experience with the Rhino and relationship with your software.

[msar24]

I'll work on getting a thread started.  The new Rino models are nice but as you said they are a bit tough on the pocket.  We have 9 SAR groups in our county (all different specialties) and most of the gorups have been able to puchase several for their group.  Our unit has six, and almost all of the members have purchased their own.  Mainly because most of us are hunters and like to have the one GPS for both SAR and hunting.