Author Topic: Looking for Cannon/Mortar building education (Read 1061 times)

pyro_tek · « **on:** October 13, 2005, 08:03:31 PM »

I'm looking to learn the art and science of metal machining. From the little research I've done so far I can enroll in a local tech school, and pay around $4,000+ for who knows what kind of training. Otherwise I could go to one of the several local machine shops to volunteer my time sweeping floors, cleaning up, and staying out of the way while peeking over the shoulders of those folks who know how to do the job.
The shops in this area that I'm considering have anywhere from 3-10 employees so I'm guessing help with the grunt work might be appreciated.

My background is in intense customer service. I've been working in wholesale/retail buying and selling for over 20 years. Now I'm semi-retired, relatively healthy, and ready to get into a field of work which has always fastinated me. I can run a front office and a front desk, but I've done that and now I want to get dirty.

Although a tech school may offer paper credentials, I'm on a limited budget. I can afford to spend 70-80 hours/week in a shop if the training and work is right.
From your experience as shop owners/managers/workers/ am I on the right track? How would you suggest I proceed?

The genesis of this query is my fastination with all the cannon projects being shown on this forum. As such I think I'm on topic. Just to make sure, the individuals who provide the most useful directions leading to my own hand made cannon or mortar will be offered my labor (once trained) free of charge (which may be worth every penny).

Thanks, p_t

GGaskill · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2005, 08:30:30 PM »

While I don't really know the occupations of most of the people posting on this board, I think you will get more answers to your questions by making a similar post at Practical Machinist. Lots more people in the profession there.

I am not familiar with the practices in Minnesota but here in the CaSSR, there are public trade schools which charge five or six times the price of community colleges for the same training. I would investigate community colleges in your area; the major advantage is you get to spend all your shop time on machines instead of pushing a broom and the fees are not too high.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #2 on:** October 14, 2005, 01:11:50 AM »

George is stearing you right.

The link to the machinist site is a good start that you can do NOW.
Reading about the issues and techniques gets you familiar with the limits of what is done and introduces you to the language and terms.

Review the curriculum of each of say three schools that you respect (take a look at the product and the jobs they get and what others say about their graduates). You may not want to get the full degree as getting that job is not your goal (or maybe it is?). You can certainly choose a number of the courses that will hit home. For example look for a course related to metalurgy - it may be taught in the welding area. It should include topics as testing of strength, characteristics of various flavors of steel (and other materials - ferris and non-ferris) and effects of heat - hardening, tempering and annealing. Then of course you need to turn a chip or two and MAKE something - begin with the basics.

Reviewing the material topic by topic will tell you what you know or don't know and also (because of the cost) is a good test of how much you want to know.

Another thing you can do NOW is to find a beginning level machine shop book - metals - machining practices. Should be able to pick one up in a second hand book store for $5-$10. Or get a more recent one (new or second hand) at the school's book store. Comparing which text books the schools use will also give you an indication of the level to which they aspire.

Apart from running the machines and making parts is the field of design. You may find a separate department in the schools that teach things (like I used to teach before I became a tooling engineer) machine design, jig and fixture design and so forth.

Explore widely. Then settle in and focus.

kappullen · « **Reply #3 on:** October 14, 2005, 01:16:04 AM »

Pyro,

I would buy myself a well equipped South Bend lathe, and every machining book I can find. with the $4000.

Go slowly, learn one setup at a time and be careful.

The Practical machinist is a good site but geared more to professional machinises.

The Home Shop Machinist Magazine site is good as well.
That site is more geared to beginners.

There are plenty of helpful people over there.
You will get many opinions on how to do a job.

There is help to be had here as well.

The magazine Home Shop Machinist is good as well.

There are other machining geared magazines such as Live Steam, Modeltec, Model Engineer (England), and others.

These may be geared to other activities but the machining is the same.
There may be Live Steam, or Machining based clubs in your area.

How about someone starting an artillery based magazine?
There are lots of potential advertisers listed on the suppliers page.

Kap

claypipe · « **Reply #4 on:** October 14, 2005, 01:34:02 AM »

The question comes down to two things. One do you really need that piece of paper. If you were younger, I would definitely say yes. But, since you are going to persue this as a hobby, then I say its up to you. In my day, you were more respected as a machinist if you paid your dues, grunt work. It gives the machinist time to get to know you and you them. Time consuming, yes, but they will be quicker to show you the tricks of the trade than an instructor working with numerous students and seeing teaching as his daily grind.

Just my two cents.

Double D · « **Reply #5 on:** October 14, 2005, 05:17:52 AM »

Good advice from all. I'm going suggest a combination of all of the above.

Look for a commuinty college with vocational classes. Take machine shop practices classes them. Some schools allow you to audit classes without grade or credit, don't do it. Take the class for grade and credit. you may not need the paper as Claypipe says today, but you never what the future holds. Cover all the bases.

Go to some machine shops and talk with them about about learning to running lathe, see what they have to say. Maybe even offer to trade your Front office skills for shop skills. You never know what they might say.

pyro_tek · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2005, 06:29:42 AM »

Thanks for the suggestions. I just called a local shop and I'm on my way out the door now to visit their shop. Following that I'm going to stop by a local gunsmith. Tonight I begin looking for Community Colleges (since I've already scoped out Tech schools).

Once again this forum has provided a wealth of information. Many thanks to each of you. If anyone would like I could start a journal of sorts on a different forum to keep you all up to date on my progress. If there are any of you out there who may wish to relearn or refresh your training and skills drop me a pm.

Cheers,
Luther

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2005, 12:00:49 PM »

Quote from: pyro_tek

...
If anyone would like I could start a journal of sorts on a different forum to keep you all up to date on my progress. ...
Cheers,
Luther

Luther -

There is a wealth of topics that you're going through that would make very good material for threads RIGHT HERE.

As I look through those that participate here there are those that:

a) shoot
b) collect
c) make
d) use special calibers - from BB to BB (0.177" to 8.26")
e) use special effects - firecracker

Several different major areas of interest - so reviewing the fundamentals of gunsmithing of cannon and mortars is most welcome!

pyro_tek · « **Reply #8 on:** October 14, 2005, 05:56:45 PM »

Had a great conversation with the owner of a machine shop. Right now he is doing work which will require me to sign a non-disclosure agreement. No problem as far as I'm concerned. It was an interesting conversation; "you want to sweep up, run gopher errands, wipe up grease and metal shavings just for the chance to watch, learn. and help with production? You are used to 80 hour weeks and don't mind getting dirty, AND I don't have to pay you or keep you insured?"

It actually took some explaining but I've a foot in the door. The shop looks pretty clean (I'll work on that) with well maintained Bridgeport machines as well as some CAD/CAM tooling I don't recognize. The owner seems like a good guy, local boy born and bred, firm handshake and a straight look in the eye. I go in Monday to get the lowdown and to see what I can do to help out and learn.

George, You were right on about the Tech School vs. Community Colleges. You probably saved me over a grand in tuition. For now I'm going to try my luck with the "on the job" training. See how far that goes, but thanks to your suggestion I've found a Comm.Coll. which looks like it will fit the bill when I'm ready for it.

Onward and upward, Luther

GGaskill · « **Reply #9 on:** October 14, 2005, 06:08:05 PM »

You should consider enrolling in one class per semester to help keep the program going. Vocational courses are always targets of the academics when budget cutting comes around but it appears they are obligated to keep the program going when there are still students trying to complete a degree path.

pyro_tek · « **Reply #10 on:** October 14, 2005, 10:49:20 PM »

That's what I hope/plan to to family willing

The problem I have is where to start. Math, Lathe 1, Mill 1 economicis of machine ship. Metalutgy ferrous/non-ferrous. etc.

I still plan to help/sweep ip at a shop but where whoul I plan to go next?

Thanks,
Luther

GGaskill · « **Reply #11 on:** October 15, 2005, 07:54:44 AM »

I would start with a course that is in the degree path for the metalworking program, not something that may be a requirement but is given in a different department. Once you have established that metalworking is your major, then you could branch into courses offered by different departments.

pyro_tek · « **Reply #12 on:** October 15, 2005, 02:00:07 PM »

Is there anything out there on my quest which I should avoid? Useless training, poor class choices, assorted evil doers or rotten suppliers/brands/politicians?. What should I look for in a work shop or CommColl machine shop? Any tricks you may have for avoiding less than honorable machinists?

Please remember, I'm as inexperienced as possible in actual Machine work. I can run a drill press, belt sander. various saws, etc, but all my experience on these tools is with wood. I've also been an electronics tinkerer since around '78.

When It come to Black Powder I've been making it since I was seven (Hi Mom). I have gotten better with education and experience and fairly proficient over the years though I'm not about to put Goex out of business. So, I have some technical skills and more importantly safety skills.

If you have suggestions on my next step, or steps I should avoid please do tell.

X's & O's (that be bullseyes and misses, naughty you for thinking otherwise), Luther

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #13 on:** October 15, 2005, 02:41:33 PM »

Luther -

EVERYONE you come in contact will have strengths and weaknesses. I've been told three different ways of doing things by three different 'experts' in the field as being 'THE' way something should be done.

Take notes, mentally or otherwise. When you learn one way of doing something, learn one or two more. Discern the REASONS for doing whatever it is for EACH of the ways. Then you will KNOW why you do it by method A or method B in different situations.

Working in the trade will put you in contact with a business perspective - there are strengths and weaknesses - you know that from your experience already. Going through a class or two will give you an organized perspective and a broad base for building other practices - sometimes are not obvious when you go through the basics but become more clear later on. In BOTH situations you will be subject to the strengths and weaknesses of those around you. That's life.

You've had three or four or five different people give you their recommendations - each from a different perspective in life. That's good - that's one of the strengths of the forum - to entertain the different perspectives.

kappullen · « **Reply #14 on:** October 15, 2005, 03:53:48 PM »

Pyro,
If you are willing to work for nothing, that's fine.
Most shops would be willing to pay for someone anxious and willing to learn.
Be sure you are covered by this shops workmans comp. in case you get hurt!
Kap

pyro_tek · « **Reply #15 on:** October 15, 2005, 05:27:18 PM »

Only three ways to do something? You are making this sound too easy. In my past field of employment if you could only find three ways to do the job you would find yourself out on your rear end before your next breath.

As far as work comp, Minnesota has pretty liberal laws as long as you are the worker. I'll be covered by the shop policy but I plan to keep my own full medical coverage, Thanks for that advice.

I also don't consider this working for nothing. Quality education is worth more to me than a few dollars.

Looking forward to Monday,
Luther

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #16 on:** October 15, 2005, 05:33:47 PM »

Quote from: pyro_tek

Only three ways to do something? ....

Exactly! We used to say, the right way, the wrong way and the Army way!

entsminger · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2005, 08:22:05 AM »

I too have the thought that it would be great to have the knowledge to build a cannon with your own equipment in your own shop. I have built many things, and welded and worked with metal to some degree but don't even come close to understanding how these guys use milling machines, lathes etc to make their cannons. Some of these guys sound like Einsteins of metalurgy. My desire is to build a 10 inch 1861 siege mortar. I talked with a fellow in Wisconsin who works at a shop where they built such a large mortar and they shoot it and I'd love to do that someday but I know it would require huge equipment I could never afford and tons of knowledge I don't have. There is something neat about building something your self though!
I'd like to know how you make out in the future.

Scott Springston

GGaskill · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2005, 09:09:09 AM »

You have given up on the 13"?

entsminger · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2005, 02:47:35 AM »

Hi Ggaskill ! No I haven't given up on my 13 inch hollow propane tank mortar. I'm still trying to figure out if it's crazy to try and make it shootable or just make it for looks. I still hope to call you but I have been very busy at work and home lately so everything cannon wise has been on hold.
I am facinated with folks who have made their own cannon like Arron Frederickson in Wisconsin or Minnesota, I forget. He made an 8 and 10 inch 1861 mortar in their work shop. I'm guessing they had to have the barrel poured at a foundry but they seemed to machine and build the rest them selves. To be able to build a cannon myself would be an ultimate dream as I love to build things. Heck, I'd build a 13 incher like Paulson Brothers did if I had the where with all but the cost of just the iron alone is so expensive, $1.50 x 17,000 pounds would make the cannon too expensive for me. I'd love to travel to either Hern iron works or to Fredericksons place to see how they do it but I can't afford to travel at this time.

Scott

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2005, 03:11:51 AM »

Scott, have you contacted Cannons on Line They are in New Windsor Maryland.

GGaskill · « **Reply #21 on:** October 21, 2005, 08:43:39 AM »

I'd love to travel to either Hern iron works or to Fredericksons place to see how they do it but I can't afford to travel at this time.

Get out your Yellow Pages (business to business if they make that distinction there) and look up "foundry". Start calling and asking if you could have a "tour" and watch a pour. I'm sure you will find someone who wants to show off, even in this liability conscious time.