10.4mm Italian service & 11mm German Reichs Revolver

[RetiredArmy]

Any advice or tips for loading either of these?

[John Traveler1]

I've not tried this, but have read that you can use cut-down .44 special cases and specially sized .44 Special/.44 Mag bullets for that Reich revolver.  It's black powder, of course, so you sould slug the bore and groove diameter and get matching .44 bullets.  Full cases of 2F of 3F powder ONLY.  I would not use smokeless powder becasue these relics and the metallurgy were all pre-smokeless powder era.

The simplest is to use round balls with blackpowder in cases.  The balls can be sized in the chamber mouths by pushing them through using a piece of wood dowel.  Lubricate with a dab of Alox or Lee liquid alox grease.

HTH
John

[Gatofeo]

Hmmm ... checked my extensive library:

10.4 Italian Service revolver cartridge

In the October 1977 (p. 84) edition of American Rifleman a reader writes about his experiences reloading for the 10.4mm Model 1878 Mauser revolver.
Is this the same round as the 10.4mm Italian?
I can't find the 10.4mm Mauser revolver cartridge in any of my editions of Cartridges of the World, but the 10.4mm Italian revolver cartridge is in there.

Anyone out there know if the German 10.4 and Italian 10.4 revolver rounds are interchangeable, or one in the same?

With the 10.4 German Mauser revolver, the reader reported using .44 Russian cases and the Lyman 429348 180 gr. wadcutter, sized to .429 inch. Groove diameter on his Mauser was .428 inch.
The Italian ammunition company Fiocchi still makes 10.4 Italian revolver cartridges. I see a fair amount of Fiocchi ammo here in the states so you should be able to order it. I don't know if the cases are Berdan or Boxer primed, but if the latter it would at least get you some proper cases for that old revolver.
Visit the Fiocchi website at www.fiocchiusa.com to find a dealer near you.

11mm German Service revolver round

I've found more information on this round.
It's also known as the 10.6 German Service revolver cartridge.
The December 1979 (p. 72) issue of the American Rifleman has some reader comments on his experience with this round.
He uses .44 Special or .44 Magnum cases and dies.
"Original German-issue cartridges feature a 250-264 gr. lead roundnosed bullet and attain about 670 fps with a light blackpowder charge in a 7" barrel," he wrote. "This round, sometimes called 11mm, was introduced into the German Army in 1879 and was used in a variety of revolvers up through the Model 1884. The cartridge has never been loaded outside of Germany and was discontinued after World War I.
"Correct case length is 24.9mm or .980 inch.
"After trimming, cases should be separately decapped, since if the .44 Special or .44 Magnum expander/decapper is used, the decapping stem bottoms in the case before the expander reaches the case mouth.
"I was able to expand case mouths adequately, using a .44-40 expander on an Ideal tong tool. You could also improvise with a Lee .44 caliber cast bullet neck expander plug, as are sold separately for the Lee Loader."

Gatofeo notes: I don't think Lee sells this separately anymore. But there are a slew of .44-caliber Lee Loaders on Ebay and other auction sites at good prices. You could pick on up in .44 Special/.44 Magnum and use it for reloading. The Lee Loader has the advantage of not depending on case length for crimping the bullet, so it would probably give you a good means to crimp the bullet to the case as well.

Continuing from that December 1979 letter ....

"I use 265 gr. 429421 Keith type bullets cast of scrap lead. This design ordinarily weighs 244 grs. when cast of linotype alloy.
"Size and lubricate bullets to .430 inch and seat them using a .44 Special or .44 Magnum seater die.
"After seating bullets, the loaded should be run through the sizer die again, just enough to take out the case mouth flare so they will chamber easily.
"Although you cannot crimp the bullets of these rounds in a .44 Special or .44 Magnum die, I have had no problems with the bullets creeping out and tying up the cylinder because recoil is mild."

The writer goes on to describe a light load of smokeless powder but prudence forbids me from reporting it. In old guns such as these, I do not suggest any smokeless powder. Use black powder or Pyrodex. Do not use Hodgdon 777 as volume-for-volume compared to black powder it creates higher pressures.

Gatofeo notes: Whether you use black powder or Pyrodex, the case must be nearly full of powder and the bullet should compress the powder a bit. Also, the bullet must be cast of very soft lead --- if not pure lead --- and lubricated with a lubricant amenable to black powder such as SPG, Lyman Black Powder Gold, etc. I do NOT suggest lubricating the bullet with straight Crisco or even Bore Butter as these lubricants are quite soft and, when warm, will run like water and may contaminate your powder and/or primer.

The writer reports one mild smokeless powder load that gets 3" groups at 25 yards from his revolver, which is mighty fine shooting. He closes with:

"The old German revolvers are worth reloading for, as they are well made and fun to shoot. They are too nice just to use for wall hangers."

[Gatofeo]

The strangest thing just happened!  :eek:

I have an unbroken set of American Rifleman magazines, from December 1928 to last month's issue. That's about 850 magazines.
A couple hours ago, I randomly grabbed three issues from 1952 and waddled off to the litter box, for a nice, long repast.
There, on page 63 of the April 1952 edition, was a warning to NOT fire .44 Russian cartridges in the German Ordnance revolver, as they called it.
The H.P. White ballistics lab in Cleveland, Ohio sent in a photo of a German 11mm revolver that blew up while being fired with black powder .44 Russian ammo.
The Smith & Wesson .44 Russian groove diameter is .441 to .443 inch. The German 11mm revolver has a groove diameter of .434 inch, White labs reported.
H.P. White wrote, "You see the German guns has a much tighter barrel. In averaging the ammunition of the two types from specimens in our collection we find the German rounds have about three grains less of blackpowder. Assuming that all other things are equal, the tighter barrel with a heavier powder charge can but lead to trouble eventually which is what happened in this case. The gun had been fired many times but finally gave up under the increased strain. Luckily, no one was injured, other than suffering an unpleasant shock."
The American Rifleman goes on, "This confirms the statement made by W. H. B. Smith ... in which he states, speaking of the German 11mm service revolver Model of 1888, that from the American viewpoint they are strictly to be classed as souvenirs."

Out of all the issues on my shelves, I picked the one with the above warning.
Odd, huh?
 :shock: