Author Topic: T/C ENCORE VS. H&R HANDI RIFLE (VS CVA OE) : WHICH IS BETTER? (Read 24462 times)

Fred M · « **Reply #120 on:** February 01, 2007, 10:45:41 AM »

kombi1976 .
Quote: Fred, which barrels did you have the 257 Rob and 6x47 made up from?

Both Barrels were made from 24" 223 bull barrels. The barrel were first machined octagon, then rebored and re-rifled.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #121 on:** February 01, 2007, 12:27:04 PM »

Quote from: Fred M on February 01, 2007, 10:45:41 AM

kombi1976 .
Quote: Fred, which barrels did you have the 257 Rob and 6x47 made up from?

Both Barrels were made from 24" 223 bull barrels. The barrel were first machined octagon, then rebored and re-rifled.

That being the case, how much meat is there in the H&R bull barrels?
The reason I ask is because I managed to score some 400 Purdey cases and am tossing up whether or not I could have a rifle rechambered to it.
Here's the shape of the case....a long straight 3" job:

Apparently 400 Purdy shot a .405" cal 230gn lead bullet with a nickel gascheck at 2100fps and was used as a deer cartridge as well as being popular with tiger hunters in India!
As it was chambered in double rifles built on Purdey's shotgun action it had to be loaded down.
Packing only about 1500 ftlbs at 100yds it would not be a load I'd be pleased to face a tiger with.
However Woodleigh makes a good bonded core 230gn jacketted hunting bullet for the 400 Purdey these days and in a modern action even 45,000psi would give it considerable improvement in power.
So, do you think there's any cal chambered by H&R that could be rebored to 400 Purdey.
Actually come to think of it.......what about 450/400?
It's a .408" cal I believe.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #122 on:** February 01, 2007, 01:04:38 PM »

Gosh Mac, that CVA sounded great until I clicked on the link and looked at the picture.
I did not think it was possible but It's even uglier than the Encore!!....<><....

kombi1976, that is a great looking shell case, it would be nice to chamber something for it...<><....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #123 on:** February 01, 2007, 01:18:37 PM »

Kombi, the .38-55 Target would be an ideal candidate, I had one rechambered and rebored to .405 Winchester, it shoots a .411" 300gr Hornady SP at over 2400fps with a healthy dose of Benchmark. There's plenty of barrel material, it's the same blank as the .45-70 BC, .800" at the muzzle IIRC, the Target's 28" barrel is even bigger.

I also have a BC rechambered to .45-120-3¼" Sharps Straight, shoots 555gr loads at 1800+fps.

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #124 on:** February 01, 2007, 01:32:35 PM »

kombi1976
There is plenty barrel metal in a 223 Bull barrel which is a bout .768 at the muzzle.
The straight case should be no trouble either if you can find a reamer for it.

Your 400 Purdy is an odd ball caliber much like the 405 Winchester. I would go with the 405. But it would depend how much loaded ammo and cases you have to feed the 400 Purdy.

deerslayer79 · « **Reply #125 on:** February 01, 2007, 02:01:44 PM »

O.K I have read all 5 pages of this thread and all I have to say is both are good guns,all guns will have some sort of issue at 1 time or another,and no matter what no gun is perfect.I have fired both types of rifles and have to say the encores are beautiful accurate firearms,H+R's are accurate,not as pretty,and more stout,it is not about what is more exspensive or how many digits are in ones bank account,it is about ones personal preference on certain types of firearms.I do know one thing ,T.C's slug guns cannot hang against H+R Ultra slug hunters..........NUFF SAID........

Cement Man · « **Reply #126 on:** February 02, 2007, 02:45:14 AM »

Deerslayer,
Agree with you in all aspects, although as far as "stout", the Encore platform will take more potent cartridges than the NEF. I have 8 NEF/H&R and 5 TC's, I love 'em all and yes, there are differences, reflected in the prices, but either brand gives you a tremendous amount of versatility and fun.
You gotta watch out for a few that badmouth the Encore looks. They secretly lust for the Encore and their tactic is to badmouth it in hopes of snagging one at a bargain price for themselves.

One thing you mentioned I really do agree with - No other brand at any price outshoots the NEF/H&R slug guns. I'm sure there are some rare exceptions, but having shot many deer slugs through various shotguns and stages of slug evolution for the last 50 years, the accuracy we get nowadays from NEF/H&R is phenomenal.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #127 on:** February 03, 2007, 10:41:37 AM »

Quote

No other brand at any price outshoots the NEF/H&R slug guns

You've never shot a Tar-Hunt then...it will out shoot them...but...at a price...

Mac

Cement Man · « **Reply #128 on:** February 03, 2007, 12:55:00 PM »

Mac, you are right. I have never shot a Tar-Hunt. To me, they are the ultimate in a slug gun. If there weren't so many useable alternatives at far more affordable prices, and if I used a slug gun more than a few days a year - rest assured I would have a Tar-Hunt. You are correct - they are very, very expensive and very accurate.
However, I have seen them shoot on numerous occasions, and that is why I made the statement that I did. A lot of slugs are shot at the two ranges I belong to, and although every quality gun, ammo, and shooter has their day in the sun, I have not seen any others consistently and measurably beat the results that my neighbor and I get with our inexpensive NEF Ultras. None.
Statement stands.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #129 on:** February 03, 2007, 01:08:14 PM »

When I got my first 12ga Ultra Slugger back in the 80's...I could consistanly get sub MOA loads at 100 yards with the original Light Field Hybred slugs...I put it up against several different slug guns in many a slug shooting contest and a few...even more expensive than the Tar Hunt.....I got to shoot side by side with them both on a regular basis...The Tar Hunt in the right hands..will just outshoot anything shooting slugs...and do it every time...(not just with the right loads..) and this the only fault I have against the NEF...otherwise...I would say it is the best one could get...as it is...I will say...it is the best slug gun for the money...period....

Mac

Cement Man · « **Reply #130 on:** February 03, 2007, 01:53:02 PM »

As you said, your NEF was giving you sub-MOA groups consistently. I think you would agree that is amazing for a slug gun (at any price). Stupendous. Magnificent.
I just haven't seen any slug shooters do any better than that. I think the Tar-Hunts are up over $2K now? And there are more expensive slug guns? Are there bench rest slug guns?

I am gonna go kiss my Ultras. My 20 gauges can swap rifle, shotgun and ML barrels too. Certainly the undisputed winners of the cost/benefit analysis.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #131 on:** February 03, 2007, 02:33:49 PM »

Yup...They are the best for the money...and yes...there are more expensive slug guns..I've seen some true bench single shots(rail guns) weighing in at 40lbs..that was shooting the BRI's in the .1 & .2"s class..and also some tricked out custom actions..and a bunch of Remington conversions..not to mention all of the fixed barreled 870's

Mac

kombi1976 · « **Reply #132 on:** February 03, 2007, 08:13:50 PM »

Bench rest SHOTGUNS!!!

I think that screams too much time on their hands!

I'm happy we can use rifles where ever we hunt here.
The amount of gun we use basically adds up to common sense.
Mind you a slug gun that shoots MOA is fine in my books.

jjvw · « **Reply #133 on:** February 04, 2007, 09:52:07 AM »

Sounds like you will never solve this one.

I have an 30+ year old contender frame that has served as a base for a 22, 41 mag, 45/410, 375 jdj and 209/45. Over a half million rounds with nothing replaced other than a firing pin spring(due to 209 blow-by- same in H&R's). Every barrel still locks up perfectly, with no head-space problems and still less than 1" groups.

My first encore rifle(209x50) did not shoot that good and was replaced by a ss encore pistol frame for 444, 209 and 12 ga. barrels. The new one needed no trigger job and after 5000+ rounds still locks up tight.

I have three SB-2 frames and 5 barrels. All shoot better than the first encore, about the same as the second encore but no way close to the 30 yr old contender. For the price I paid, they work well for grandkid guns (They have to fight me for the 20ga slug gun).
Based on the sloppy lockups I see in the used gun racks, I doubt if they will be as problem free as the TC's and I doubt they would still be tight after 10000 rounds of 444 or 375 jdj.
None of the barrels work on more than one frame and none of the H&R frames can be used as a legal pistol.

$3000 for 8 TC calipers or $900 for 5 H&R's.
H&R's are good inexpensive rifles but they are not as good as TC's and they are not pistols.
I am a pistol only man and the grandkids can't hunt with them.
They will have to wait until they open my will to find out which TC they get.

If you will never shoot 10000 rounds in one gun and don't need a pistol, buy a H&R, or several.

Buckskin · « **Reply #134 on:** February 05, 2007, 07:37:26 AM »

MOA slug gun. Believe it when is see it. It's measured at 100yds not inches.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #135 on:** February 26, 2007, 11:10:58 AM »

I say heck with the encore and handi. CVA ELITE is the way to go!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #136 on:** February 26, 2007, 02:19:32 PM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on February 26, 2007, 11:10:58 AM

I say heck with the encore and handi. CVA ELITE is the way to go!

And why would that be?

The only thing I can say about the CVA ELITE is, it is the ugliest single shot gun out there.

But I guess ugly guns are like ugly woman, somebody loves them.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #137 on:** February 26, 2007, 02:32:06 PM »

LOL......

manofthe45 · « **Reply #138 on:** February 27, 2007, 04:51:12 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on February 26, 2007, 02:19:32 PM

Quote from: bigblock455 on February 26, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
I say heck with the encore and handi. CVA ELITE is the way to go!

And why would that be?

The only thing I can say about the CVA ELITE is, it is the ugliest single shot gun out there. But I guess ugly guns are like ugly woman, somebody loves them.

Hate ugly guns and as far as ugly woman go...Lets just say I have been married along time. As far as the new CVA goes- I would rather buy a handi.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!T/C RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #139 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:40:08 AM »

Quote from: manofthe45 on February 27, 2007, 04:51:12 AM

Quote from: Redhawk1 on February 26, 2007, 02:19:32 PM
Quote from: bigblock455 on February 26, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
I say heck with the encore and handi. CVA ELITE is the way to go!

And why would that be?

The only thing I can say about the CVA ELITE is, it is the ugliest single shot gun out there. But I guess ugly guns are like ugly woman, somebody loves them.

Hate ugly guns and as far as ugly woman go...Lets just say I have been married along time. As far as the new CVA goes- I would rather buy a handi.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!T/C RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All a matter of perspective...I don't find the CVA's truly ugly anymore...nor do I find the Encores the same...Granted...neither is as beautiful as a finely crafted O/U..or S/S...but then they aren't supposed to be either...What I have found is that the stocks of both are more ergonomically designed to reduce the felt recoil...and to allow the gun to push more in a straight line rearward...My CVA Elite does just this...no so with the Handi's.. I have changed my feeling on the stock designs of each since acquiring a Optima Elite and shooting it...and look forward to getting some quality wood stock sets for it as well as the nice synthetics it already sports...While the Elite is a relative newcomer on the block...those that have these fine rifles know full well the value of them as compared to both the Encore & the Handi's..and that in time..they will be offering most barrel barrel configurations as the Encores already do...which will make them more of a bargain in the long run to those looking to purchase one...

Mac

DavOh · « **Reply #140 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:56:28 AM »

Mac, no offence, but that sounded alot like an endorsement... LOL... a sales pitch even...

if i had the cash, and if i could find one, i'd consider the CVA-OE... maybe someday......

quickdtoo · « **Reply #141 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:26:50 AM »

I'll say this....if Marlin doesn't get off their butt and make some improvements in H&R's QC, CVA is going to take a big bite out of their profit margin with the new Optima Elite sales IF CVA starts marketing them nationwide. Right now CVA isn't widely known in the centerfire market, but given some time, I'd say they will make some eyes open if they maintain their product as they are at this time and their prices stay reasonable. Right now, a retail Handi sells about $220, the OE about $290, considering the barrels for the OE can be had for $160 OTC, and they shoot well right out of the box with no modification necessary, even TC had better watch out!!

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #142 on:** February 28, 2007, 10:18:57 AM »

Hello Mr Quick I quote.
I'll say this....if Marlin doesn't get off their butt and make some improvements in H&R's QC, CVA is going to take a big bite out of their profit margin with the new Optima Elite sales.

I second that, I am long done buying H&R Handi's. Yes you can talk yourself into illusions of what a good buy they are etc etc. I sure like to get one of those CVA's
notwithstanding looks and ergonomic stock, as long as they shoot accurately and hang together.

It is after all a Kiplauf rifle, simple and handy.

After all what else is there to a firearm, what good is an expensive or cheap rifle
if it does not shoot and gives nothing but trouble every time you take it out, no fun in that.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #143 on:** February 28, 2007, 10:38:32 AM »

Hay, I thought there was an Ugly gun forum for them CVA's. LOL

nomosendero · « **Reply #144 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:49:58 PM »

TC rules what? I have a couple, one good, one not so good. In accuracy, I have some bolt guns & 1 AR that will give my TC's a severe thrashing. I have some NEF's for now & will try a CVA this year. Accuracy is what I am after, we will see.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #145 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:45:38 PM »

Quote from: Fred M on February 28, 2007, 10:18:57 AM

Hello Mr Quick I quote.
I'll say this....if Marlin doesn't get off their butt and make some improvements in H&R's QC, CVA is going to take a big bite out of their profit margin with the new Optima Elite sales.

I second that, I am long done buying H&R Handi's. Yes you can talk yourself into illusions of what a good buy they are etc etc. I sure like to get one of those CVA's
notwithstanding looks and ergonomic stock, as long as they shoot accurately and hang together.

It is after all a Kiplauf rifle, simple and handy.

After all what else is there to a firearm, what good is an expensive or cheap rifle
if it does not shoot and gives nothing but trouble every time you take it out, no fun in that.

Fred,

I don't have trouble with my Handis, and I still love them, just bought another frame today so I can put the last loose barrel I have on it's own frame.

For the money, they can still be very servicable for most hunters.

Some do need to go back for repair, but H&R CS takes care of them. Unfortunately, you folks in Canada don't have that luxury.

Also got a used CVA Optima Elite 7mm-08 today, a fella can never have too many guns!!

Tim

Swampman · « **Reply #146 on:** March 01, 2007, 12:41:17 AM »

CVA quality hasn't exactly been a high water mark either. I won't even own one of their muzzleloader because I (and many others) feel that they are dangerous. I'll stick with the Handi (over the T/C or CVA.) It's attractive, proof tested, and American made.

The CVA Optima barrels cost as much as a second hand Handi rifle.......sorry

Mac11700 · « **Reply #147 on:** March 01, 2007, 07:23:11 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on March 01, 2007, 12:41:17 AM

CVA quality hasn't exactly been a high water mark either. I won't even own one of their muzzleloader because I (and many others) feel that they are dangerous. I'll stick with the Handi (over the T/C or CVA.) It's attractive, proof tested, and American made.

The CVA Optima barrels cost as much as a second hand Handi rifle.......sorry

Everyone has there own opinions..and that is a good thing...but dangerous...I think not...What's being produced today...isn't what was being discussed as dangerous by a long shot..

Hmm..let me see...I have a choice of buying a used Handi...that may or may not function or shoot properly.....or a high quality Elite center fire barrel OTC that I know will...that's really a no-brainer...Oh...BTW...believe what you will about how their made..and if they are safe or not...but I honestly don't believe that Ed Shilen would put all the time and trouble into helping set them up and attach his name to them... if they weren't safe...That's something to consider

Mac

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #148 on:** March 01, 2007, 07:38:40 AM »

Mac11700, there is no guarantee that the Elite center fire barrel OTC is going to be problem free. I am like Swampman, I don't like them and won't buy one. Just in my opinion, they are not all you guys make them out to be. But if they work for you great, have a blast with them, but don't try to convince everyone they are the next best thing since sliced bread... Now that is a no brainier.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #149 on:** March 01, 2007, 09:20:05 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on March 01, 2007, 07:38:40 AM

Mac11700, there is no guarantee that the Elite center fire barrel OTC is going to be problem free. I am like Swampman,I don't like them and won't buy one. Just in my opinion, they are not all you guys make them out to be. But if they work for you great, have a blast with them, but don't try to convince everyone they are the next best thing since sliced bread... Now that is a no brainier.

Redhawk1...Precisely how would you know then...? You seem to want to downgrade these without trying them for some reason..and Swampman too...I can respect that your both entitled to your opinion...But......If you don't mind...What are you basing it on...? Hear say perhaps...? Perhaps taking some one else's word on it that may be biased against the company? I'm puzzled by this...

I've shot them...and they are very accurate both the center fire 243 of mine..and a 50cal muzzle loader...Others have shot them...and they have been very accurate them too...I've spoken with the customer service manager Mark...He is very pleasant and helpful...along with all the rest of his staff I've spoken with on several occasions...The company honors it's warranty...and gets it's orders sent out in a timely manner..So...exactly what's your beef with them?...Are you slamming it because it isn't American made...? If you are..then you truly aren't doing anyone any favors on this forum...since there are many fine quality Spanish fire arms made...Or... are you saying there isn't any quality non-American made fire arms available ? Perhaps they may take away from your beloved T/C's and Encores...Are you afraid of them seeing a little competition? You said..

Quote

But if they work for you great, have a blast with them, but don't try to convince everyone they are the next best thing since sliced bread

...No one is trying to convince anyone they are...even though so far...they have given very good accuracy..so why shouldn't folks tell others?...They feel they are getting something good..for a sizable savings in money and time spent working on them.Perhaps..when more barrels and stock choices become available...well...maybe then they will be worthy of you trying one...but then again...maybe not...Either way...they are here now...and more and more folks are trying them...so you can expect to be reading more about them...and that isn't hurting anything...
Mac