Author Topic: T/C ENCORE VS. H&R HANDI RIFLE (VS CVA OE) : WHICH IS BETTER? (Read 24484 times)

nomosendero · « **Reply #180 on:** March 04, 2007, 10:35:44 AM »

Quote from: manofthe45 on March 04, 2007, 09:07:41 AM

Two things that I noticed here. 1. The flaw was later corrected. 2. Optima Pro is close in appearance, but the OE frame is much stronger, I looked at an Op. Pro. today & the frames are quite diff.
That is not to say that if I had your experience that I would not feel burned, I would. But, I did not & can look at the matter as it pertains to the
OE model in a more objective manner.

Held one today (OE) in 30/06. I did not see any major differance what so ever between the pro and elite. again you claim people aren't camparing apples to apples in the cva line, but what is closer to the elite than the pro in the cva line. that is like saying that you cann't compare the encore with the G-2. One maybe stronger than the other but they are the same design.
While I am a t/c man to the end. I will say that I find the handi's to be a better looking gun than the Elite.
[/quote]
AS STATED BY Manofthe45

Believe what you wish & again a bad personal experience would weigh on my mind as well.

Since CVA does not offer even a 223 barrel on the OP, they must see a difference & I did in frame width alone. Just this alone is a BIG diff. without looking any further.

If you see something in the present design that is dangerous, please inform us. Look what a great service this would provide all of us looking at the OE. Otherwise, it just appears to be a waste of time for me to continue this, as you said yourself it was a past problem & not even this model.

I have an Encore & a Contender Super 14. My Contender experience has been extremely good & the Encore has been ho hum at this point. I
think I should give the Encore more of a chance with more barrels before I give my final opinion on that gun. By the same token, I will try the
OE & see how it does & continue to view the REAL results from that testing & also the testing done by others. Real results & only opinions based on fact have any relevance to me, & I will look at the actual results. Opinions not based on Data or Testing are good for the trash can in my view.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #181 on:** March 04, 2007, 02:00:36 PM »

It would be nice if one of these guys lived close enough to come and shoot my OE in 30 06. We could load some really stiff loads up and shoot them,and see if the Encore's are about the same recoil level as the OE. I'm curious about the Encore,and would enjoy shooting with some of you boy's.If you have noticed I hav'nt run anybody's brand down and I'm pretty happy with the OE for right now. Manofthe45 did you shoulder the OE and how did it feel? Digger

manofthe45 · « **Reply #182 on:** March 04, 2007, 04:30:49 PM »

In fact I did. While I did not like the looks I will say it was a comfrtablw weight that balanced well. Also before people throw the T/C holier than thou blanket on me I bought a 223 rossi today. Seemed like a perfect gun to throw under the seat of the truck and forget about until I see a big old ground hog that is

gypsyman · « **Reply #183 on:** March 07, 2007, 02:34:06 AM »

Tried to read most of the posts on this subject, and maybe I missed it. But the one thing I don't think anybody mentioned, was resale value. Fact is, you'll never get any kind of money out of a Handi rifle, or a CVA, if you ever decide to sell it. Some other products come to mind,Simmons, Tasco and Lee come to mind. (That ought to get some of you guys blood boiling!!) But facts are facts, when it comes to the lower priced products, ya just don't get anything for them, when you decide to sell them. I'm not saying their bad products. Just the facts ma'm. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)-(9/11/01) gypsyman

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #184 on:** March 07, 2007, 02:52:57 AM »

Quote from: gypsyman on March 07, 2007, 02:34:06 AM

Tried to read most of the posts on this subject, and maybe I missed it. But the one thing I don't think anybody mentioned, was resale value. Fact is, you'll never get any kind of money out of a Handi rifle, or a CVA, if you ever decide to sell it. Some other products come to mind,Simmons, Tasco and Lee come to mind. (That ought to get some of you guys blood boiling!!) But facts are facts, when it comes to the lower priced products, ya just don't get anything for them, when you decide to sell them. I'm not saying their bad products. Just the facts ma'm. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)-(9/11/01) gypsyman

That is a very good point.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #185 on:** March 07, 2007, 07:28:37 AM »

Quote from: gypsyman on March 07, 2007, 02:34:06 AM

Tried to read most of the posts on this subject, and maybe I missed it. But the one thing I don't think anybody mentioned, was resale value. Fact is, you'll never get any kind of money out of a Handi rifle, or a CVA, if you ever decide to sell it. Some other products come to mind,Simmons, Tasco and Lee come to mind. (That ought to get some of you guys blood boiling!!) But facts are facts, when it comes to the lower priced products, ya just don't get anything for them, when you decide to sell them. I'm not saying their bad products. Just the facts ma'm. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)-(9/11/01) gypsyman

Hmm...I would not say that is a valid point..I would say your not taking into account what you spent on it in the first place...I've lost more money on trading in much higher priced guns...than on any Handi I have ever owned...and I have always gotten my money out of them...even on my custom ones...Most gun dealers have a higher mark up on just about every gun other than a CVA or Handi...there for you will automatically loose more on trading a TC or Encore back in to most dealers...and depending on time of year...they will have a harder time selling them over a much lower priced gun....With Handi's or CVA's...just like TC's and Encores...You have to know where to sell them...and who to sell them to to minimize your losses..but as a rule of thumb...you will loose less on them...PS...Take a look at what some of the barrels for the Handi's are selling for on e-bay...you might be surprised...many people think very highly of them...and will spend a great deal for them....

If you are trying to denigrate them into being less durable/desirable products like those you mentioned your very wrong in this regard...and most folks know this...There's good and bad ones on both sides...and just because a product sometimes has a higher price tag...doesn't mean it's a better product than a less expensive one...

Mac

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #186 on:** March 07, 2007, 08:30:00 AM »

Mac11700, no matter the brand, if you sell a gun back to a dealer you are going to take a butt whooping. That is what they want, it is better to do a swap with a friend or sell it out right. But if you take the percentage of loss, I will loose less with a Encore than a CVA, sorry but that is the truth. Look at a used Knight Disc M/L, I paid $400.00 plus dollars and when I took it to trade it in, I only got $100 for it. That is over a 75% loss, I might only loose 25% of an Encore M/L. Big difference.

Sorry Mac11700, but some guns hold there value better than others.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #187 on:** March 07, 2007, 08:42:55 AM »

I agree...some guns do hold their value over others...just like anything else...but...it's all depending on what you paid for it to start out and the market you can sell them in......If you pay $200 for a Handi...and get $150 for it on a trade...which is a going price around here BTW...you not going to loose as much...I've seen Encores going for over $800.00 new here in St.Louis...and very rarely see them for much over $450 used...Here...you won't loose as much on a Handi...as a Encore...

Same can be said for many other products that are being sold at a high mark up...Take your pick on what is...guns...cars...TV's...you name it...It only means you made the dealer richer by buying it...not that you were getting a better product...

Mac

gypsyman · « **Reply #188 on:** March 07, 2007, 08:58:19 AM »

A little over 20 years ago, I started to shoot sillywets. A brand new barrel for a Contender was $110-$125, and you could ususally find a used one for $60-$80. Now, if a barrel for a Contender is in half way decent shape, your looking at $150, give or take $10. Quality products always hold their price better. Again, I'm not trying to put anybody's gun/scope/dies, whatever, down. It's just a fact. I don't care if its guns,furniture, or automobiles. (checked the price on a 30 year old Rolls, I havn't, but I bet its holding resale better than a Ford Pinto)As far as trade in, you half to remember that a dealer is going to sell your trade in, at probably what you could sell it for. So he's not going to give you what it's worth, probably 25-40% less, as he is going to figure in his profit. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41) (9/11/01) gypsyman

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #189 on:** March 07, 2007, 09:36:46 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on March 07, 2007, 08:42:55 AM

I agree...some guns do hold their value over others...just like anything else...but...it's all depending on what you paid for it to start out and the market you can sell them in......If you pay $200 for a Handi...and get $150 for it on a trade...which is a going price around here BTW...you not going to loose as much...I've seen Encores going for over $800.00 new here in St.Louis...and very rarely see them for much over $450 used...Here...you won't loose as much on a Handi...as a Encore...

Same can be said for many other products that are being sold at a high mark up...Take your pick on what is...guns...cars...TV's...you name it...It only means you made the dealer richer by buying it...not that you were getting a better product...

Mac

I doubt very seriously that a $800 Encore used will only get $450. Maybe an Encore that was bought new for $575 or $625, Not all Encores cost $800. The $800 mark for an Encore started with the Pro-hunter, and I bet you could not touch a used one for under $600.

A good quality gun will always hold there value better than a less expensive gun. I bought a Shiloh Sharps 5 years ago, and I can get more for it now used than what I paid for it new. So quality does matter.

nomosendero · « **Reply #190 on:** March 07, 2007, 12:46:18 PM »

Gypsyman, this might be a regional situation, I don't know. But what I do know is your accessment
of the resale value of Handi's is absolutely false in the area where I live.
I see these rifles all the time in used racks for an allmost new price. But, alot of people like him here.
Frankly, I wonder how they hold so much of their value.

And no, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I am a bolt man at heart, I have and use far more quality bolt guns than anything else & I probably allways will, & with a Match AR & a couple of Marlin levers thrown in among others. I have 2 Handi's for now & a Contender & an Encore. I will likely sell my Handi's, but I am not sure. If I could sell my Encore for 75% of new, I would & might even try another later. I KNOW that I can sell the Handi's (Ultra's actually) for over 75% all day long around here at least.

The Optima Elite, who knows. It is a new design & if it goes over well the resale will reflect it. If it does not, it won't. No one on this forum knows the percentage of new price they will bring in a couple of years, mostly because of the reason stated, we will see what the track record will be later.

I do agree IN PRINCIPLE that quality items, furniture, Jewelry & so on holding value better, but as in used cars, it is not etched in stone, besides people have different ideas of what quality is, esp. when it comes to guns it appears.

gypsyman · « **Reply #191 on:** March 07, 2007, 07:17:28 PM »

nomosendero, I believe you hit the nail on the head, when you say it could be a regionial situation. I've seen where some dealers wanted MORE, for used guns, than new. Let me explain this. Here in Ohio, a private sale, is not subject to background check, like a FFL dealer. And there are quite a few private collectors, that make this selling point. No paperwork or background check required. And there are quite a few buyers, that like not doing this. Back to the T/C-H&R debate. Around here, Ohio-Mich-Pa. area, just about anything T/C is within 10-15% of new price.(Contender frames,IF you can find one, are more than what they sold for new 5 years ago). And the Handi's generally are 60-75% of new price. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)-(9/11/01) gypsyman

nomosendero · « **Reply #192 on:** March 07, 2007, 07:39:52 PM »

Private sales should not be papered in any way, unless in a police State. To mention a background check on a private sale is foreign to me.

My point is they get the prices for Handi's here & so do individuals.

If people in Ohio, MI, & PA like to pay within 10-15% of new price, I will sell one of these gents my Encore within 20% & they will have the deal of a lifetime.

Even if I got within 10% of a New Encore price here selling a used one (& I could not), 10% of 600.00 would be 60.00 lost & if I got within 75% of 200.00 selling a Handi, (which I would & then some), I would lose 50.00. And that would give me 10.00 extra to try a CVA or something different. But, like I said before, I am not worried.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #193 on:** March 08, 2007, 08:38:01 AM »

It's not only regional...Most gun dealers can make good money off the Handi's...because they can sell more new ones at a much cheaper price...That's just the way most businesses work...There are more folks looking for the cheapest way to shoot than there are folks willing to pay more...I'm not taking anything away from any of the guns on this...this has nothing to do which is better...I am talking total guns sold nation wide here...Expensive guns sell too...as do medium priced ones...just not as many...

Used Handi's in the center fire calibers are always good sellers... These rifles even in used conditions command premium prices.... add in the odd calibers that are no longer made...and the prices will most often be $100 to $200 dollars more than they originally cost...Try finding a 7x57mm or a RMEF 35 Whelen or a 444...or even some of the older 45-70's made sitting on a dealers gun rack somewhere...I've have seen prices as high as $400-$650 for some of them...It sounds crazy for such a inexpensive rifle to be this way...but it is the way it is...and this is from Texas to the east coast...so....it just isn't regional...Most folks who never would give them a second glance don't understand this...

Mac

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #194 on:** March 10, 2007, 07:40:49 AM »

the handi is your first hunting gun or you just cheap like me. the encore is a gun for someone who has been hunting and know what they are doing. Were i live i have seen few H&R or encores but there is a lot of AK,M4, and stuff like that. were you live tell you what kind of guns cost more or less. I did see a encore in i think 30/30 for 250$ and i asked how long it's been there and he told me a year because on one want a gun in 30/30 that a single shot.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #195 on:** March 10, 2007, 07:50:29 AM »

Is that single shot a carbine or a pistol? Heck, for $250 it doesn't really matter.....can you give the dealers phone and stuff in a PM?

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #196 on:** March 10, 2007, 07:55:36 AM »

shoot if i can find it again. the place is up in clearwater which is about 35 miles from were i live. i just stop in becuase i was rideing the bus and i saw a gun shop.

nomosendero · « **Reply #197 on:** March 11, 2007, 06:43:29 PM »

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #198 on:** March 13, 2007, 07:47:33 AM »

have found it and the gun was sold. most of the guns he had are gone because of the high taxs they sold a lot of there gun for 1/2 off. i looks like it not going to be here much longer. Most of the small gun,bike or other shops have gone from this area. I hate that all these small shop are going because they had good stuff and the know about what they sell.

txpete · « **Reply #199 on:** March 15, 2007, 02:17:02 AM »

I am kind of a single shot guy and over the years had/have contenders,encores ruger#1's and a few handi's.

the handi's are good solid guns but it was a crap shoot out of the box what you get.terrible triggers floating the barrels ect and they will shoot might take some tinkering but it will pay off in the long run.since most of "us" are reloaders and tinker no biggie but to a brand new shooter non reloader it could be a problem with a 8 lb trigger pull..no flame on the handi just the way it is.
my 25/06 handi was a excellent shooter but it took some work to get it there.alot of hours on the bench to find the sweet spot on that one.again if a non reloader could have spent alot of $$ to find a fac. load that shot under a inch.
right now I have a contender,2 encores and a ruger #1.I am not a snob or look down on the handi I just have what I like.I respect what you like and would be the first to walk up and say nice rifle hows it shoot.
pete

nomosendero · « **Reply #200 on:** March 15, 2007, 03:27:34 AM »

Quote from: txpete on March 15, 2007, 02:17:02 AM

I am kind of a single shot guy and over the years had/have contenders,encores ruger#1's and a few handi's.

the handi's are good solid guns but it was a crap shoot out of the box what you get.terrible triggers floating the barrels ect and they will shoot might take some tinkering but it will pay off in the long run.since most of "us" are reloaders and tinker no biggie but to a brand new shooter non reloader it could be a problem with a 8 lb trigger pull..no flame on the handi just the way it is.
my 25/06 handi was a excellent shooter but it took some work to get it there.alot of hours on the bench to find the sweet spot on that one.again if a non reloader could have spent alot of $$ to find a fac. load that shot under a inch.
right now I have a contender,2 encores and a ruger #1.I am not a snob or look down on the handi I just have what I like.I respect what you like and would be the first to walk up and say nice rifle hows it shoot.
pete

This is the way it should be.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #201 on:** March 15, 2007, 07:41:14 AM »

txpete, you are quite the gentleman, thanks for your honesty....<><....

Swampman · « **Reply #202 on:** March 16, 2007, 11:04:30 AM »

That info was true of the older Handis but it no longer is. They are excellent accurate guns with nice trigger pulls right out of the box.

longJohns · « **Reply #203 on:** March 16, 2007, 04:09:19 PM »

Forget the junky tip ups. Get yourself a rifle with a breechblock.

Swampman · « **Reply #204 on:** March 16, 2007, 04:10:47 PM »

It won't be anymore accurate than a Handi.

jim huntington · « **Reply #205 on:** March 18, 2007, 07:01:19 PM »

Ive owned or own,TC contender handgun( 357maxamum),New England(.308),Handi heavy barreled (20ga.)slug gun,TC NewEnglander(50cal.),a Rossi(.243),a handi Huntsman(50cal.)with a 12ga. extr slug barrel combo,and presantly a spr18(.308).All of them had their advantages & disadvantages.The N.E 308 was accurate but trigger pull was ruff.It had to go back to co. the first week I had it with ejecter problems. co. fixed it under warranty and worked ok after I got it back.I now have a Rossi in .243. The trigger pull is alot smoother than the N.E .308 was and shouldered a little better for me.The N.E. was the nicer looking gun with it's laminated stock. Both guns were very accurate.The Huntsman muzzleloader/slug gun combo was a good handling outfit, trigger pull was good, and both barrels were accurate.The TC. contender handgun in .357max. was a good shooter, but I wasnt that good with it when it came to hunting deer with a hand gun.Along with the Rossi I presently have a spr18 .308.It handles & shoots real good. To me this one is the nicest one of the bunch, But it too has some miner flaws. All these guns were bought new with the exception of the TC contender handgun. All the guns were bought at a little over$200.00.over a period a few years.I know I could have bought a TC contender with a bunch of barrels for what I had spent on all those single guns.Dont get me wrong! I would love to own a TC encore rifle.But my budget says handi,rossi,spartan.Hey! I would love to own a blazer rifle! A guy let me hold one at a sports show once. Thats the closest ill ever get to one of them, unless I hit the lottery.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #206 on:** March 22, 2007, 03:11:45 PM »

I'm probably late to jump in on this, but I'll throw in my $.02 since I just bot a Handi in 22 mag and I own 2 Contender's and a Pro Hunter.

The Handi cost me $130 out the door with tax. The trigger is heavy and needs work. It's going to cost $100 give or take to get another barrel (22lR) and ask NEF to do a factory trigger job on this frame. However, the gun is accurate and I am not sorry that I bot it. The barrel swaps on Handi's are not anywhere the ease of the Thompson Centers. With the T\C's you buy a barrel, put it on the frame and shoot it. None of this fit it up stuff.

The Contender frame's that I own cost me $250 each. I stoned and polished the trigger\sear myself and the pull's are 3.5lbs. The rifle stock cost $160 and each barrel cost average $225. So that's $635 for "one" rifle. However, each "rifle" after that cost $225 (average). I'm not including scope cost in either the Handi or the T\C. And, once I have the trigger "fixed" on the T\C, it's fixed on all future T\C's. For Encores I think the average cost could be $260 per "new gun" (pro hunter).

So, for another $125--Contender to $160---Pro Hunter, per "new gun" over the cost of a Handi, what you get is a Thompson Center.

Now, I don't know what "better" really means, because both guns will match (from what I understand) in accuracy in all calibers. However, I do like the 3.5 lb trigger pull that is consistent in all calibers on my Thompsons. The Handi, you either have to send in to the factory and do these 6 week turn around things, or buy 'em second hand. And second hand buys are just not as easy as it seems. If you not inclined to do your own trigger work, then you may want to factor in the cost of trigger work into each Handi that you buy if you don't do the X-tra barrel program.

So, I don't think there is an argument that one gun is more accurate than the other. But I do think there is the factor of convience of changing calibers while maintaining the same frame and trigger pull, and stock that the T\C's provide that the Handi's don't.

All that being said, I'm not sell'in my Handi 22 mag 'cause I like it too much. But I've kicked around a 22LR barrel for the Handi and the more I think about it, I may just get a 22 LR for the T\C. Only because I can just buy it, put it on and go shoot.

Dave

manofthe45 · « **Reply #207 on:** March 24, 2007, 03:49:29 PM »

9 yes 9 used CVA OE on the used rack at cabela's today. 2 ML encores(older style not PH) and 1 handi in 30/30. Guess some people just aint happy with miricle cure for the encore.

It is a little funny how nobody here ever gets a CVA or Handi lemon, but according to many here 9 out of 10 T/c's are lemons. From what I saw today it looks like MANY people ain't happy with the OE.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #208 on:** March 24, 2007, 04:29:15 PM »

Davemuzz, you might consider this, the triggers jobs are free under most circumstances through H&R, however, all the instructions to do it yourself are posted in the FAQ's on the H&R site, they are easy and straightforward, and since you have polished up the trigger on your TC yourself there is no reason you could not do it on your H&R. Instead of spending about the $100 you quoted for another .22 LR barrel why not just buy a complete new H&R Sportster in .22 LR? They usually go for between $109.00 and $119.00 in either .22 LR or .22 Mag and either can often be purchased brand new on sale for $99.00...a better way to go buddy....<><....

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #209 on:** March 25, 2007, 05:37:18 AM »

Quote from: manofthe45 on March 24, 2007, 03:49:29 PM

9 yes 9 used CVA OE on the used rack at cabela's today. 2 ML encores(older style not PH) and 1 handi in 30/30. Guess some people just aint happy with miricle cure for the encore.

Just where are these OE's and how much for them? I've got some friends that are interested. Digger

Author Topic: T/C ENCORE VS. H&R HANDI RIFLE (VS CVA OE) : WHICH IS BETTER? (Read 24484 times)

Swampman

Swampman