Author Topic: firing without a round the Boom-factor (Read 1978 times)

john pike · « **on:** October 17, 2005, 09:00:43 PM »

im building a 1/2 scale (thanks for the plans) Howitzer next, this will be primaraly for the "noise-factor"

what do you guys do when you dont shoot a round?

i read the story about the cannon blowing up, with bags used for wadding.

wont i just get a whoosh, without something to make a pressure on ignition?

im thinking fo the fourth and newyears here, our neighborhood goes ballistic, with the firecrackers and motor-rockets.

i want something diffrent, but dont want to drop a lead ball on someone,

i read also that flour can be used, as long as it goes in AFTER the powder

is this a good thing??

NO wadding?

sorry for all my unknowladgable questions, but i want to do this safe.

when i head for the hills ill shoot balls, i know of a pit i can do it in.
my son and wife are all wound up,

johnp

GGaskill · « **Reply #1 on:** October 17, 2005, 09:17:53 PM »

Normally the powder charge for blank shots is twice that for shot (reference South Bend Replicas Catalogue.) So the extra powder gas is acting as the projectile and providing the resistance to the remainder of the charge. The issue with wadding is to not create a secondary projectile with the wadding. Since your charge should be wrapped in aluminum foil, I see no reason a similar weight charge of some non-combustible powder could not be used as a wad in place of excess powder. Flour is combustible in a dispersed form so I would not use it. You also don't want to use anything that might jam in the bore or be expelled on fire. See what you can think of that would meet these requirements.

However, if you do use a wad, use a powder charge suitable for shot, not a double charge.

pyro_tek · « **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2005, 04:16:24 AM »

Project 8251.17 - A sound reduction device for cannon... Anybody ever seen a pre-1899 design for a cannon caliber silencer?

Dictator · « **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2005, 02:24:57 PM »

John,
Welcome. I agree w/ G. When our battery shoots blanks in the 3"-6pdr's, we use a pound & a quarter of Fg Elephant. We've used more, but after 1 1/4 lbs in the longer cannon barrels, it only adds smoke, not much more noise. Now in the 12 pound Mt. Howitzer with that short barrel, we use 2-2.5 lbs of Fg. The more you put in that big, short barrel, the louder it gets. We took out all the windows in a reenactment town w/ that 2.5 lbs howitzer load. We only use the powder in a 6 layer wrapped foil powder bag, no fillers. We dropped a burning remanent of a corn meal filler bag at the feet of the site official once and have not used fillers since.

Little Guy · « **Reply #4 on:** June 26, 2006, 08:25:27 AM »

What would be a good non-lethal wad to use in a beer can mortar?
My mortar has a 2.625" Dia. barel and a 1" Dia. powder chamber. I have herd of people using a wodden plug wrapped in cloth, then put 1" of sand in front of that. Is this safe? Can i do something like this to my mortar? I would think that i could use a paper wad or something there for cutting down on the excessive use and waist of BP.
Thanks

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:20:22 AM »

Wads tend to burn.

Powder only, wrapped in aluminum foil, I've heard works.

I use a soup can or beer can (depending on which mortar) with the entire top open. Load fuse, powder and empty can. Fill can (carefully) with water.

Mortar fires, can goes up, tumbles, water disperses, can floats to the ground. Not entirely foolproof, so plan on the what-if's. Too much powder, the sides of the can press out against the inside of the tube; therefore work up from a small charge until you see slight scraping on the sides and back off.

cannonlover · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2006, 02:11:35 PM »

When cannonmaker and myself fire a salute (no round, but a bang), we put in the powder and the a wad. We then pack it tight with fresh cut grass or damp shredded newspaper. The wad does tend to burn though, just as Cat Whisperer says. The grass is biodegradable and it does create a large boom. Since it weighs very little we do not worry about chamber pressure. We use a lot less powder if firing a projectile (safety first). We use this in both cannons and mortars.

Little Guy · « **Reply #7 on:** June 27, 2006, 01:11:15 AM »

Cannonlover:
What do you use for a wad before you put in the crass or newspaper? Im trying to find an easy / cheep means for a wad. I would need a 2.625" Dia. wad.

Is loading sand (no rocks) into a cannon or mortar a bad idea, or should i say, will it damage the bore?

Evil Dog · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2006, 02:48:33 AM »

When making up aluminum foil powder charges for my half scale Napoleon (2 1/4" bore) I need to add a filler to make a physically larger cartridge. The powder itself is plastic baggied and I use that "blow in insulation" stuff for a filler. It is pretty non-combustible and is real cheap at the local hardware store. Just be sure to mark the cartridge as to which end the powder is in. Might make that bigger boom you are looking for.

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2006, 04:15:25 AM »

Grass clippings or what every you put in the barrel will come out of the barrel as a solid mass and then the muzzle blast most likely blow it apart, but there is no guarentee. It's a gun always point in a safe direction before firing.

moose53 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 27, 2006, 04:55:01 AM »

Aluminum foil cases filled with sand should work. The foil would protect the barrel,the muzzle blast would blow it apart,and nether would start a fire.The only cleanup would be what is left of the foil.You still have to have a clear down range because it would be deadly at close range.This only works on smooth bores,the sand would really mess with rifling.

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2006, 05:24:32 AM »

This issue of loading blanks is a reoccuring theme. The answer exists and we only need to look to the professionals for that answer.

Sand? No! It will scour or sand the bore on the way out and come out as a solid mass. It will also ramp up pressures.

Just follow the safety instructions at http://www.civilwarnews.com/artillerysafety.htm for safely building blanks.

Quote

TEN BASIC SAFETY REGULATIONS

1. Maximum blank powder charges for properly constructed guns of 3-inch bore or larger should not exceed 2 oz. of Fg grade or 3 oz. of Cannon Grade GOEX black powder per inch of bore diameter. Maximum powder charge for bore of more than 2 inches and less than 3 inches should not exceed a total of 3 oz. Fg or 4 oz. Cannon Grade. Use reduced loads with projectiles. (See North-South Skirmish Association regulations for a guide to projectile weights and powder charges.)

2. Prepare powder charges in advance using light-weight plastic baggies with end twisted closed. Leave 2 inches of twist; cut off excess plastic. Fold twist to bag. Enclose bag in a triple layer of double-thickness heavy-duty aluminum foil (six layers total). Take care not to break plastic baggie. The bag prevents escape of powder dust and keeps granules from getting trapped under folds of aluminum to help insure complete burning. (Aluminum foil wormed out after firing often yields unburned powder although this may appear impossible to those familiar with smaller caliber guns.)

3. All crew members should wear ear protection devices.

4. No one should cross in front of the muzzle at any time during the cleaning, loading or firing procedure.

5. The ammunition box shall be located 25 feet behind gun and attended at all times or locked. The interior shall be lined with a non-sparking material and the box itself shall be stoutly constructed of wood or metal.

6. No smoking at any time within the safety zone.

7. No drinking alcoholic beverages for 10 hours prior to serving on a cannon crew. Any crew member showing signs of the effects of alcohol or other drug should be replaced.

8. Projectiles shall be constructed so that they easily pass through a sizing gauge with finger or thumb pressure only. The sizing gauge to be a length at least 1.5 times the length of the projectile and in inner diameter no greater than bore diameter when the barrel was new.

9. Projectiles should not weigh more than one half the weight of projectiles used in original issue guns of same bore diameter.

10. When blank firing no wadding should be used nor should be necessary for a realistic report.

If you do anything else you are endangering yourself those around you and your gun.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2006, 12:47:00 PM »

Quote from: moose53

Aluminum foil cases filled with sand should work. The foil would protect the barrel,the muzzle blast would blow it apart,and nether would start a fire.The only cleanup would be what is left of the foil.You still have to have a clear down range because it would be deadly at close range.This only works on smooth bores,the sand would really mess with rifling.

If the column of sand is very short, I would be inclined to agree. HOWEVER, when the column gets long enough, it will wedge, causing some to a lot increase of pressure. How much? Not something I'm going to test. As I've said before, I have seen (from 15' away) a cannon explode. When you light the fuse, you should KNOW that it's a cannon and not a bomb. Heed the rules DD has posted and you'll be safe. Violate them and you MAY get away with it.

Powder keg · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2006, 12:52:51 PM »

I have been using flower in my aluminum foil blanks. Has been working good. The flower seams to burn up. I read that some reinactors were using a combination of 1 part powder to 3 parts flower to get a good boom.

Squire Robin · « **Reply #14 on:** June 30, 2006, 05:58:17 AM »

Hi

The powder needs something to push against to make a good bang.

100 gns in a musket will make a good pop, but 100gns in the back of a cave will only phuff, so it's obviously bore dependant.

With a powder only load there are two things to push against...

1: The unburnt powder in front of the burnt powder

2: The air in the barrel, although this will only resist strongly once the blast front approaches the speed of sound.

Loosely packed powder in an aluminium wrap is more likely to detonate and push against the air.

Tightly packed powder, lit from the back, is rocket fuel and will push against unburnt powder in front. In a short barrel any excess will come out as a big lick of flame.

Just my .02p

Squire Robin

Rickk · « **Reply #15 on:** June 30, 2006, 06:26:22 AM »

I'm not saying use wadding or not - I'll let others debate that and keep my opinion to myself...

However, for those that choose to use flour (which may or may not burn or explode as it leave the barrel) no matter what the safety rules say ...

I found on the web this week a safety rule sheet used my WWII re-enactors .

http://www.wwiifederation.org/pyrotechnics_regulations.html that prohibited flour as a filler because it burns, and recommended baking soda instead. Baking soda is non-flamable. It is used as the extinguishing agent in some fire extinguishers. It is about as cheap and just as available as flour.

Note that they used the term "filler" instead of wad. There is a difference between the words as far as the intended use. . The principle job of a filler is to take up space and prevent air space (as in a lightly charged metalic cartridge). A wad, as least as we are talking about here, is being used principly to increase pressure.

I am mentioning this as a more predictable option instead of flour, not recommending wadding of any sort at all.

Sand ? Hmmm.... sounds like sandpaper without the paper to me

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** June 30, 2006, 08:57:00 AM »

The reeanactors are using pyrodex only.

I have never failed to get a loud boom in any of my cannons using foil cartridges.

Us the maximum charge for your bore in Fg or Cannon grade powder listed in the tables at the top of this forum in a cartridge made according to the instructions for making cartridges also at the top of this forum. A thin over powder wad can added.

You do not need a louder boom than that.

You won't get any whoosh either. You will get a bang.

The fillers aren't needed.

cannonlover · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2006, 04:57:17 PM »

We use an old cotton tee shirt and just cut a circle. We do this so that the powder does not get wet. I do not know if that can be classified as a wad, but that is what we call it. The fresh grass does dry out with the firing, but we do not have to worry about that starting a fire, however the cotton tends to smolder. We use cotton because man made material will melt on the inside of the barrel and this causes real problems.

Rickk · « **Reply #18 on:** July 14, 2006, 08:14:11 AM »

Double D... I was getting inconsistant Booms. Sometimes very loud, sometimes not so loud.

I saw your mention about how you used an over-powder wad, so I threw a 1/8 inch thick coorogated cardboard wad into my aluminum foil pack before closing it up. I didn't weigh it, but it weighed close to nothing (well under an ounce).

I fired a couple last night... both were very (and about equally) loud. I'll try a few more tonight. I am thinking that maybe the wad keeps all the powder behind it and makes the burn more controlled.

The wads land about 10 feet in front of the gun, so they don't act as projectiles for long. The first one sorta lit my wife's garden (AKA "downrange") on fire. The second one I soaked in a cat food can filled with water and baking soda and let it dry. It appeared to be a bit scortched on part of the edge, but didn't cause any fires.

Littleguy, I used the end of a piece of pipe as a template to draw a circle and cut the wads with my pocket knife. They were not pretty, but they worked OK. If you want to make a really nice hole, check out "arch punch" at www.zackwhite.com , but be prepared for sticker shock on the bigger sizes (they do make an awesome hole.

Little Guy · « **Reply #19 on:** July 14, 2006, 08:43:02 AM »

I touched off my beer can mortar during my 4th of July work shutdown. At first i tried to put in a double charge (400 grains) to see what it would do. It went off with the sound of a woosh. I then tried an empty soup can. Decent sized bang and the can didn't go very far about 20ft. I then tried a soup can filled with water. Good sized bang but the can went about 200 ft and i lost it. I then tryed a soda can filled with water. Another big boom and the can exploded and fell about 10 ft from the mortar. I dont't expcet to see a much louder report than this seeing as how i could feel my shirt blow in the breese from the blast. Every charge was 180 grains (1 Tbsp.). Did i mention that it could be herd all over my town (many miles). hehehe
The only problem i have is with the sub powder chamber. You can only put as much powder in as the chamber can hold. Any more, then it spills out into the bore. My chamber is 1" Dia. x 1.5" deep. I have shot a dirt filled tennis ball out of it, not sure the distance. What fun!
Just a recomendation, you can use beer cans but i found that the alum. is much thinner and the bang isn't as loud as a soda can. Also soup cans will survive the blast for re-use.
Hope this helps for the boom factor.

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** July 14, 2006, 09:06:42 AM »

Quote from: Rickk on July 14, 2006, 08:14:11 AM

Double D... I was getting inconsistant Booms. Sometimes very loud, sometimes not so loud.

You made cartridges following these instructions:

Loading Cannon Cartridges[/color]

And got a whoosh!! Can't help you there, you shouldn't have got anything but a boom.

You are going to need some help with setting your wifes carden on fire!!! Tell her the the black powder smoke contains nitrates to help make her garden grow and sulfer to kill bugs.

Little Guy · « **Reply #21 on:** July 18, 2006, 02:58:56 AM »

I tried to make a charge kind of like the one you have a link to but didn't know how to make one for a 1" dia. powder chamber that would fit. I pored 2Tbsp. of BP on some tinfoil but then realized that the charge was bigger than my powder chamber. If i made the charge 1" dia. it would be 3" long. It also looks like you would waste a whole lot of BP by doing it this way. I cant immagine that all the BP burns up to make a bigger, better boom. Is this true?

Double D · « **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2006, 06:37:03 AM »

Quote from: Little Guy on July 18, 2006, 02:58:56 AM

I tried to make a charge kind of like the one you have a link to but didn't know how to make one for a 1" dia. powder chamber that would fit. I pored 2Tbsp. of BP on some tinfoil but then realized that the charge was bigger than my powder chamber. If i made the charge 1" dia. it would be 3" long. It also looks like you would waste a whole lot of BP by doing it this way. I cant immagine that all the BP burns up to make a bigger, better boom. Is this true?

I make charges for a 1 inch bore by wrapping the tinfoil around a 3/4 inch dowel and fold the end over just like they do with the drinking glass. I put my powder, 180 grs of FG or Cannon grade in a plastic baggy and insert that into the foil tube and roll the top of the tube shut, tight. Check load chart in the Safe loads post and you will see that 180 grs. is the max charge for a 1 inch. I weigh my loads on a scale for consistancy. The charge is about three inches long. If you want to make noise thats what you do. And yest the powder all gets burned up. The tinfoil cartridge holds all the powder together and help make the pop. I run the cartridge to the bottom of the bore and make sure that is seated firmly. Prick the charge, fuse and fire! BOOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!

Little Guy · « **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2006, 06:55:18 AM »

Even though my beer can mortar only has a 1.5" deep powder chamber it is ok to load a 3" long charge into it. This would leave about 1.5" of charge that is hanging out in space in the barel of the mortar. I can see how this would work on a cannon with a 1" dia. boar but not on my mortar. Can you please clarify the use of these charges in mortars.
Thanks

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2006, 07:04:52 AM »

Powder is load loose in the Mortar chamber. Cartridges are for cannons

For noise I would make a shorter cartridge to fit the chamber and see what happens. A mortar isn't going to give you much bang anyway as the expansion chamber where the ball rest reduces the noise.

claypipe · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:54:31 PM »

Quote from: Little Guy on June 26, 2006, 08:25:27 AM

What would be a good non-lethal wad to use in a beer can mortar?
My mortar has a 2.625" Dia. barel and a 1" Dia. powder chamber. I have herd of people using a wodden plug wrapped in cloth, then put 1" of sand in front of that. Is this safe? Can i do something like this to my mortar? I would think that i could use a paper wad or something there for cutting down on the excessive use and waist of BP.
Thanks

DANGER! DANGER! Really bad accident in the making! Sand is used in pit blasting to seal the explosion. Grains of sand would interlock, stopping the wooden plug, effectively plugging the bore. And if you are lucky enough that it didn't, you still have a wooden projectile to contend with. Really bad idea.

claypipe · « **Reply #26 on:** July 20, 2006, 10:10:43 PM »

Its 4 in the morning and either I just had an epiphany or I should really go back to bed. But has anyone tried an inflated balloon? This is for larger bore cannons and mortars.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #27 on:** July 22, 2006, 04:31:30 PM »

Quote from: claypipe on July 20, 2006, 09:54:31 PM

Quote from: Little Guy on June 26, 2006, 08:25:27 AM
What would be a good non-lethal wad to use in a beer can mortar?
My mortar has a 2.625" Dia. barel and a 1" Dia. powder chamber. I have herd of people using a wodden plug wrapped in cloth, then put 1" of sand in front of that. Is this safe? Can i do something like this to my mortar? I would think that i could use a paper wad or something there for cutting down on the excessive use and waist of BP.
Thanks

DANGER! DANGER! Really bad accident in the making! Sand is used in pit blasting to seal the explosion. Grains of sand would interlock, stopping the wooden plug, effectively plugging the bore. And if you are lucky enough that it didn't, you still have a wooden projectile to contend with. Really bad idea.

Mortars have short barrels - not condusive to powder by itself building up pressure for the big bang.
Longer narrower bores work much better.

There aren't a lot of GOOD options for blank-firing mortars!