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Offline vmthtr in green bay

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« on: October 21, 2005, 10:40:26 AM »
Removed by GB.

Nice read on this.

Mike

Offline myronman3

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2005, 03:40:09 PM »
here is my take on it...

this is a write up just like the gun rags do.  that is, it is trying to promote bellm's work.

the history of friction with him here i never got involved with.   i couldnt care less.  

  from what i have seen personally, and what i have seen him and his follows post;  i think the guy is full of beans.   i have just seen too many contenders and encores perform just fine as is from the factory, so i just cant buy into the story that he has the answers that makes them accurate.  

if you take his word,  contender and encore factory barrels are not accurate, and i think most everyone who has fired them knows otherwise.  

it is my opinion that he is trying to prop himself up as a self proclaimed guru,    and he is trying to sell snow to the eskimos.

Offline KN

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2005, 05:09:18 PM »
I have to agree with myronman3, I have had several Contenders and Encores that will shoot 1/2" or better. What he didn't state was just what the cost to the average shooter would be if he had to pay for all the things he did to that Encore just to cut a half inch, give or take, off what the gun would normally shoot. You would find the cost mind boggling.   KN

Offline vmthtr in green bay

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2005, 02:52:51 AM »
I guess everyone has an opinion and yours are worth as much as I am paying for them.  If you can get a factory barrel to shoot like that, you are much better than I am, sir.  Being a Mod for GB, I would assume you are required to bad mouth him due to the fall out they had for whatever reason.  I know my groups shrank after installing the oversize pin, so I know for a fact that it works. YMMV.

Mike

Offline buzztail

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2005, 03:06:37 AM »
to some the differance between a .5 and a .2 gun is well worth the extra $
I'd be one of those people :D  I have been known to want the best of everything :wink:
Shaun

Offline Lone Star

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2005, 04:49:24 AM »
Those who own and shoot highly accurate rifles (and a factory Encore is most definately NOT one of these), know that the claimed accuracy matches what a good BR bolt rifle will do.  To do it with a break-open rifle is quite an accomplishment.  I agree that the article is long on hype and shot on data, but then it is aimed at the average shooter, not the expert.

Note that no mention of other group sizes is made....this leads me to believe that the 0.207" group may not be representative of the rifle's average accuracy.  I'd like to see how it groups over time; the single claimed group is very small for a factory bullet, but how will the rifle agg for 20, 40 or 80 shots?

Altogether the article was interesting and informative.  Some of the technologies used are certainly not common for Encores.  Even if the long term results end up less than claimed here, I applaud the guys for trying to elevate the accuracy levels of Encores to match those of bolt rifles.  Building a BR rifle is not quite like building the average hunting rifle...

Offline myronman3

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2005, 04:57:52 AM »
Quote
Words fail me after reading the above. OTT has never proped his work up as a self proclaimed expert. He is a man of honor. OTT does not bad mouth anyone or their ideas. His methods of barrel making are light years ahead of any other custom barrel makers.


dont know about "ott".  i am refering to mike b***m.   believe me,  i saw enough of the rubbish posted here to have a really good idea that eskimos dont need more snow.    damn few shooters can match the guns accuracy, anyhow.  they are much better off spending their time and money on improving their marksmanship skills; this is especially true of thompson center contenders and encores.    there will always be a barrel with problems, but by and large the vast majority of barrels out there will out perform the shooter.  

Quote
Sir you are really showing the fact you don't know anything about what you posted. Would you please read the article instead of spouting the party line.


maybe you could contact g.b. and see about getting that refund for your membership fees?  

 party line?  what party line?  perhaps you can enlighten me on this one....anyone?  

" I will not have to be banned from this board as I quit and will not be a part of a place where such stupid remarks come from Moderators. You Sir should be ashamed. Neil aka tommyn"

words that break my heart.   rest assured, jack,  i aint ashamed of nuthin.    if you let a thing as someones opinion get under your skin that deep,   you got issues that you would be better off spending time rectifing than spending time here anyhow.

Offline jhalcott

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2005, 05:51:33 AM »
First off ,I did NOT read the article.Spending large sums of limited dollars on questionable accuracy improvements(.5to .2) is a waste of resources to ME! I have custom and factory guns ,handguns,rifles and shotguns. I do not shoot bench rest where such improvements are neccessary to win.Neither do I take shots at live game at ranges where this accuracy is DEMANDED! I don't condemn those who do either. I drive a Ford you may like Chevy's. I've seen many so called hunters buy the most powerful rifle they can get, and not fire it enough to use it properly. Usually they complain about the kick! A Ransom rest will prove to most people that their gun is USUALLY more accurate then they can hold.

Offline skb2706

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2005, 08:02:51 AM »
Spin it this way..........lets say for no good reason you just wanted the most absolutely accurate breakaction TC rifle built up. Would you have OTT build the barrel for you or would you contact the TC custom shop and have 'em send one. A rifle that shoots .500" .....misses small targets often at 400 yds. where a .200" makes those hits. I am a believer....I have to see it  (I can ....I have barrels that do that)  to believe it. The vast majority of the "upgrades" listed in the article are at very little expense.....this is defintely not "big money".

Offline Keith L

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2005, 10:37:44 AM »
Lets see: Custom barrel with first class blank and EDM chamber, full action job, custom forestock.  And that's not serious money?
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline buckenbass

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2005, 11:46:55 AM »
People tend to get a little nippy ..But  I will point out a few things anyway..

1 encores and contenders ARE accurate enough for the average hunter ...But will need to be improved on if your goal is to target shoot for groups..

2 there Are custom companys out there that can improve the guns ability..

3 there Are many tricks you can do your self  even trigger jobs..

4 there Are allot of good barrel makers out there..

5 Most of the barrel making companys also Are offering trigger jobs...

That said my next trigger job will be done by ME why I got the cd info from MB web site and I have ability to do it my self also learned some info from this sight on how to do a quick trigger job that works well to...But I would recommend any that was not willing to take there gun apart themselves go to MB ..
And as far as barrel makers go you cant beat www.sskindustries.com but I have seen allot of stuff that Mike from OTT has put out and hear allot of good talk about what his barrels can do ..Also have NEVER heard anything bad  .....I do think He is one step ahead of all the rest but just little known..and when I go to buy my next barrel it will be from OTT..

I think we should take this right up for what it is (good for all involved)
I have yet been able to shoot a 3 shot sub 1" group at 100 yards ...........on any deer!!!!!!

Offline buzztail

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2005, 12:30:25 PM »
Quote from: Keith L
Lets see: Custom barrel with first class blank and EDM chamber, full action job, custom forestock.  And that's not serious money?


Not when you look at the rest of my gunsafe, or most any of my other toys/hobbies. To some the money I've spent is a drop in the bucket. To others the money I spent on my freestyle jetski or (insert any other of my hobbies here) would break the bank. It's all about perception.
I have a friend with a 32' Luhrs AND a 45' Egg Harbor.....Too much? Not to him it's not. See where I'm coming from?
Shaun

Offline skb2706

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2005, 07:29:54 AM »
"Lets see: Custom barrel with first class blank and EDM chamber, full action job, custom forestock. And that's not serious money?"

I know how much money it is....I've done it ...more than once. How about $439....is the grand scheme of things not much. Shilen blank ...match grade and I make my own fore end. Custom chamber ....will shoot in the .2 s and .3 s not once.....not twice but anytime you would like to try it.

Offline Keith L

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2005, 08:27:37 AM »
My .204 Ruger barrel factory TC on a box stock G2 can do that all day long as well.  Kinda takes the intrigue out of shooting.  Makes it a little boring.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline vmthtr in green bay

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2005, 11:36:06 AM »
Keith,
ALL DAY LONG.

Show me a target with 5 consecutive groups in the 1/4" range at 100 yards from a factory T/C.  Heck, show me a 1/2" agg.  Don't , for one second beleive it.  I'll bet you even do that with no windflags and off a bipod?  You could win the Super Shoot with that gun, lots of money there to be won.

When all shots count and there is a moving backer so rounds can't be dumped into the bank, these 1/4" all day long, factory guns all the sudden don't shoot well that day for some reason.

Mike

Offline buzztail

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2005, 11:57:54 AM »
+1 Mike
Shaun

Offline Keith L

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2005, 12:47:58 PM »
See the nice thing about this is it really doesn't matter what you think, now does it.  I shoot for me and not for you.  What you do or don't believe is really unimportant to me.

Have a nice life.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Lone Star

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2005, 02:55:28 PM »
I used to listen when a guy at the range told me he had a rifle which would shoot 1/2 moa or less all day long and I would tell him I wanted to see it.  If the guy ever showed up with the rifle, it was usually either a worn M70 in .220 or a new Savage in .223.  He'd plop down on the bench with a rolled-up blanket as a rest and proceed to fire off a group.  The group was usually between 1.5 and 3 moa.  He'd fuss and cuss and tell me there must be something wrong with his handloads, or that he'd forgotten to clean the bore, or.......you get the idea.

Once you actually shoot in an accuracy competition and see what the best shooters in the world can do, you become a bit jaded at remarks about shooting .2s and .3s all day long.  Yeah, right.  I've offered to pay $200 to any non-competition shooter who can agg in the .2s for 25 consecutive shots at my range - and $200 to me if he cannot do it.  Never had a taker; money seems to separate the men from the boys.   :D

Offline skb2706

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2005, 04:17:02 AM »
The discussion began with the 'guns' capability and digressed to the shooters ability. I will stand by the fact that I own two Contender carbine barrels ...that correctly setup and loaded for are capable of that kind of accuracy. I ....on the other hand am not consistently.

Offline xphunter

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2005, 06:58:04 AM »
Both Mike's do good work and are helpful to teach shooters how to be better and to understand their TC products better.

There are some factory barrels that can turn in amazing accuracy and some whould be better used for tomato stakes.. Custom barrel makers will put out a consistent better made barrel than the factory.  Every once in a while they will have a problem too--It is not a perfect world.

I have shot barrel by Mike B, SSK, Bullberry, and TC.  In my own limited use I have had problems with SSK & Bullberry, but both of them fixed the problems. You have some different experiences than mine.
I am INTO serious accuracy (It is my thing-even for hunting) and I would not hesitate to have either Mike build me one to my specs.
I don't think I can consistently put 25 shots into .25 day in and day out myself.  But I believe I have an XP that would be real close to doing it :)
Ernie
"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water!"

Offline Wilyote

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TC Barrels
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2005, 07:08:10 PM »
Haven't had a custom barrel on my Encore"yet". But my 24" 223 barrel will shot 2" groups at a hundred yards all day long.  This barrel has been back to TC twice.  I will tell you that the bore is rough... Copper fouls like crazy.  Shoot quite a few Yotes with this.  Could shoot more if it was better.  Take my 220 when I want to reach em...
 By the way.. "you can get banned for voicing your opiinion here"?  I sense a lot of friction here.  But banning some one for speaking out just because you are a moderator is like pissing in the wind.   Eventually no one wants to be around you.

Offline myronman3

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2005, 01:38:19 PM »
Quote
By the way.. "you can get banned for voicing your opiinion here"? I sense a lot of friction here. But banning some one for speaking out just because you are a moderator is like pissing in the wind. Eventually no one wants to be around you.


dont believe every accusation you read.   this isnt the way  g.b.o. is.   first off, moderators cant ban anyone.   second,  if someone was banned for having a different opinion,  i would have been banned along time ago.   this isnt a click where you either fit in or are booted.   evefyone around here is generally very helpful, even if they do have a different take on things.  

 there are few rules, but the only way you are going to get "banned" is if you dont follow them.    stick around, you'll see i aint lying.  

 to those of you that are sending me p.m.'s because you dont like my opinion,  stop it.   you got something you want to talk about fine,  but if you think your going to p.m. stuff to start with me,  it wont be tolerated.   you got a problem with something i post,  take it up with graybeard.  i follow the rules.      

you got a different opinion than me,  fine with me.  takes all kinds of fruits to make fruit cups.   but dont be pulling gutless stunts like that and think no one will know.

Offline EdK

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2005, 03:50:29 PM »
Quote from: myronman3
Quote

 to those of you that are sending me p.m.'s because you dont like my opinion,  stop it.   you got something you want to talk about fine,  but if you think your going to p.m. stuff to start with me,  it wont be tolerated.   you got a problem with something i post,  take it up with graybeard.  i follow the rules.    


My fellow forum members,

It is abundantly clear that one of our moderators does not take kindly to constructive criticism. In fact he has made it clear that all discussions are to be conducted out in the open so I will post the aforementioned PM for all to see:

********************************(PM begins)


Is our moderator "moderating"?

Definitions of moderator on the Web:

    A person or small group of people who manage a mailing list or newsgroup. Moderators determine which messages can be seen by the entire group.
    A Moderator is term used in Forums / Chat rooms and is someone entrusted by the forums administrator to help regulate postings in the chat room.
    At a forum,
someone entrusted by the administrator to help discussions stay productive and within the guidelines.
A moderator is a person who monitors the quality of a comment posted on a site, message board or IRC channel. The purpose is to prevent trolling, abuse of the comment system, and ultimately ensure that posts are not clearly antagonizing others. [/list:u]

I do not permit myself to openly enter these conflicts. They detract from the quality of GB's forum. However I wanted to point out to the moderator (privately) the possibility that you yourself initiated the hostilities and are contributing to an unhealthy environment on the forum.

Regards, Ed Klements

********************************(end of PM)

I don't post a whole lot however if anyone cares to check my history I do not involve myself in controversy. I apologize to my fellow forum members for the distraction however this particular moderator has called me on what I feel was an honest attempt to clean up GB's forum. Furthermore he has demanded discussions be conducted out in the open so here we are...

Ed

Offline myronman3

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2005, 04:22:47 PM »
well ed, all i have to say in response to your p.m. is that when this becomes "edk outdoors", you will have the right to define to me what my responsiblities as a moderator are.      

until that day...


Quote
I don't post a whole lot however if anyone cares to check my history I do not involve myself in controversy. I apologize to my fellow forum members for the distraction however this particular moderator has called me on what I feel was an honest attempt to clean up GB's forum.


right.  you are just trying to shut someone up who sees the topic differently than you.    dont stir the pot, and then sit back and say "what? who, me?"

Offline vmthtr in green bay

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2005, 05:02:46 PM »
It is still good article for those who are after small groups, redgardless of what the Mod says.

Mike

Offline Graybeard

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Article on Extreme accuracy from Encore
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2005, 06:00:44 PM »
Looks like it's time, perhaps past time, for me to step in and end this.

Up front let's say that if I had clicked on the link the day it was posted the thread would have been deleted. Both of those Mike's were once advertisers here at GBO. One was booted off as a trouble maker and his full cost of the ad refunded even tho it was four months into a six months ad period. The other chose to leave on his own and did so with no ill will on my part toward him but he did apparently have some ill will toward me. Seems he felt I was short changing him by answering questions in the affirmative when asked about owning SSK products but not able to do the same for his since I'd never owned any of his. That's his right.

BUT neither are currently advertisers here yet either they are sending their minions here to try to gain free advertisement or they have some really strong boosters who wish to see how far I'll let them go. Well to answer that neither are advertisers, both were. Since that's the situation any post I consider an "AD" for them will be removed. This article fits that category and the link is being removed.

Quote
Being a Mod for GB, I would assume you are required to bad mouth him due to the fall out they had for whatever reason. I know my groups shrank after installing the oversize pin, so I know for a fact that it works. YMMV.


At GBO Moderators are assigned to individual forums. On those forums they are my representative responsible to me for enforcing the written rules of the site as listed in the Terms of Use Statement. When needed they are expected to help generate disucssion. This applies mostly to new or relatively inactive forums. On active forums they may post or not as they wish. They are not expected to act any differently than any other GBO Member with that exception. There are several of them with whom I have long running arguments on many matters. At times we even get some what heated. They are still moderators.

I installed the same pin as you and got worse groups. So what does that tell you? It tells me your results were an anomoly. Perhaps mine were. Perhaps both were. In theory I think the pin idea is a bad one.

Quote
Is our moderator "moderating"?

Definitions of moderator on the Web:


Ed, you're not just out there on the web, you're at GBO. Here I define the duties of a moderator. Not you, not the membership in general and for sure NOT some definition you pull from another website.

On the forum a person Moderates for me they are my representative there and as stated above are to enforce my rules on that forum and that forum alone. On any forum for which their name is not listed at the top as Moderator they are just a GBO member. No different than anyone else. They have no powers and no authority. They speak as a GBO member. They are entitled to their own opinions on all matters.

Wilyote, you're mighty new here to have such strong opinions without knowledge of the facts. Most likely you're from a past personna who has been disabled. But for the record it's extremely difficult to get banned from GBO. In the first place GBO like ALL other sites ban IP addresses NOT members. That's the only way you can do it with today's technology. We've got perhaps 8-10 IP addresses banned here. Mostly they were folks who spewed forth the most vile and filthy language and just had to be banned regardless of the consequenses to others who might use the same IP address.

When a person normally gets out of line they are not banned their account is just disabled.

Which by the way is precisely what happened to the tommyn account which is why he is now posting as Neil and that one will now be deactivated also. Should be interesting to see who he comes back as next. That person is a known trouble maker on this site and loves to go to others to brag about how he was BANNED from GBO. Yet he is still posting here just as a different user name. Sorry guy now you'll have to come up with yet another one to do it.

This thread ends now. It's long since out lived it's usefulness as if it ever has any.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!