Which .45 ACP Sig Sauer, HK or Dan Wesson?

[dougk]

I am looking at getting a .45 ACP.  I have had a Sig Sauer P220 and a Colt Commander in the past.  I am looking at the 220 and a Dan Wesson Panther.  The HK Tactical has also caught my eye.  Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.  The application is home protection and target shooting.

Thanks,
Doug

[ArmaLube]

Within the choice structure you pose, personal choice plays a major role. Different folks will see the suggested answer in different ways. Essentially, none will be wrong.

But, the logic I use unfolds as follows. DA/SA pistols offer some genuine advantages over SA only. No need to deal with cocked and locked, a precarious mode of carry. No need to ever thumb the hammer, a practice that can spoil your day and possibly your thumb (permanently). No need to gamble with quality, Sig quality ranks among the highest. Smooth DA first shot is always safe, always ready, and there is no need to think about safeties.

The standard Sig Arms P220 is my suggested choice. SigArms engineering, quality of materials, customer support, durability, and pure choice make the choice clear and simple.

Enjoy what is considered by many (including me) to be the finest production pistol made today.

ArmaLube

[Iowegan]

My safe is bulging with 45 ACPs. I have several Colts and a few 1911 clones. I also have a Beretta, H&K and a SIG P-220, and yes, even a Ruger P-345. If you want a gun that shoots great right out of the box, go for the SIG. Granted, it doesn't have as nice of SA trigger as the 1911s but it is very smooth and manageable. DA is also very smooth and a bit lighter than my HK or Ruger. Though you could buy at least two Rugers for the price of a SIG, you also get twice the gun in a near identical profile.

My SIG and others I have fired all have worked flawless. They eat about any ammo and are quite accurate. The only complaint with the SIG was the plastic grips. Unlike the polymer guns, the grips are removable so I installed a set of Hogues that fit me perfect.

The SIG P-220 is one of the easiest guns to field strip for cleaning. It's a very basic design. No internal lock, no plastic, no magazine disconnect, no manual safety, just a well designed strong gun.

It's always a good idea to stay with a popular model because there are a lot of aftermarket goodies available. The SIG uses dovetail sights front and rear so changing to a different type is a piece of cake. Magazines, grips, sights, holsters, etc are very available.

I'll keep my 1911s for bullseye and maybe carry my Commander now and then but the SIG P-220 has taken over as my primary carry gun.  The Ruger P-345 was a big mistake and the H&K was disappointing for what it cost. I have never fired the Dan Wesson 45 so I can't comment on it.

[PeterF.]

Doug:
I guess I'd be interested in knowing what your thinking is about these guns; that is, what are the features that drew you to these ones.  You already know about the SIG 220, so what can we tell you about that? (although that would be my choice, too).  You're also familiar with 1911 types. Most people here who are considering non-Colt 1911s look at the Springfield Armories. The Dan Wesson is just another feature-filled 1911 clone (which I've never seen discussed in these forums).  Why the DW? What attracts you to it, versus say the S&W or SIG 1911s?  The HKs are OK, and the safety system is sort of a cross between the SIG and the 1911; however the grip shape is quite different.
I'd say you should: 1) consider which safety arrangement you feel most comforatable with (that's what tool me away from a "cocked & locked" 1911 system to the SIG); then 2) "try them on for size"; which one feels best in the hand.
As a further consideration,though, I think the SIG has proven very reliable.

[dougk]

I have owned the Sig P220 and it is a great gun.  However there appear to be alot of surplus P220s.  I have several Dan Wesson revolvers which are great.  And have several friends who have used the HK USP SOCOM and love it.  I have limited experience with the HK it appears to be a nice gun.  I know the HK is about 2x more than the Sig and Dan Wesson.

Doug

[Redhawk1]

I would go with the Sig.  

[rockbilly]

  It just don't get any better than a Sig.  If my life were on the line and I could have but one choice of handguns, I would select the Sig.  Mine has never fail me. :roll:

[dougk]

But the HK has a 12 round capacity and a barrel that will support a suppressor.  I dont have a class 3 so I guess the suppressor does not matter.  

Looks like I might go with the Sig.  I don't know if 5 additional rounds is really worth twice the money.  :eek:

Doug

[poncaguy]

Try a Ruger P345 before you decide.........

[Savage]

QUOTE:   No need to deal with cocked and locked, a precarious mode of carry.    :-D



I'd go with the Sig, good quality and less clunky than the H&K. The DW is a decent 1911 clone, not a bad choice. Don't own one, but from what I'm hearing, the P-345 just might be the sleeper here.
Savage

Oooooooops, just noticed you are referring to the DW Panther---sorry don't know anything about that one!

[Questor]

The idea that some people prefer a cocked and locked single action to a double action is absolutely mystifying to me.  Unless you are carrying it in a holster specificially designed for this purpose, it's just an accident waiting to happen.  Go for the modern design. You won't regret it. Leave the target pistols at the range where they belong.

[Savage]

Questor,
Don't know if you're a hunter or not but, if you are, here's a question for you. If you hunt with a rifle or shotgun, do you carry with a chambered round? If so, you are carrying "cocked and locked". How about a XD, single action, cocked and no mechanical safety (other than the grip safety)?  Just because the striker or hammer isn't visible, doesn't make them safe or unsafe. If anything the single action auto is safer than a Glock or HD for carry. Once out of the holster the light single action trigger might be a problem for someone with no trigger discipline. I say carry what you like, and learn to handle it safely.
Cheers,
Savage

[Iowegan]

Questor, A loaded, cocked, and thumb safety on condition with a 1911 is more of a psychological thing than a safety issue. When you see a cocked hammer, it automatically makes you think this condition is unsafe. Very few other guns have a grip safety, and yes, a good 1911 holster should have a thumb break strap that positions between the hammer and firing pin. Check out a Glock. No exposed hammer and no safety, unless you call the plastic trigger latch a safety. People don't see that as a safety issue because they don't see a hammer. It is way more dangerous that a cocked and locked 1911 however, Glock is the most popular law enforcement gun in the USA.

When you train with a gun and use it as it was designed to be used, ie  John Moses Browning's well designed 1911, you get the motion down pat with some practice. When I do two shot drills from a holster, I first grab the grip then use my thumb to unsnap the holster's thumb break. As I draw the gun and move it into position, I sweep the thumb safety off. By the time the gun is pointed at the target, all I have to do is squeeze the trigger. The first shot and all after will have the same trigger pull. I can do these drills with amazing speed and accuracy. My confidence level is high and the safety factor is better than nearly any gun on the market.

The worst thing you can do with a 1911 defense gun is to carry it with an  unloaded chamber or with the hammer down. By the time you draw, jack the slide or cock the hammer, you lost the fight.

The SIG P-220 operates flawless however it takes an old 1911 guy some time to get used to that first long and stiff trigger pull. I'm getting where I can draw and drill the target just about as fast and accurate as with my Colt Commander.

As for the Ruger P-345, It's a good design with flawed manufacturing processes. Mine had 13 documented factory defects. It has been to Ruger a couple times and is now working reasonably well. My biggest complaint besides the poor workmanship is the grip. Folks with smaller hands may find the gun fits them. The grips are cast into the frame so they can not be removed like the SIG P-220.

[Questor]

Iowegan:

My issue is not so much with the gun itself, but with the system employed to carry it. I carried my 1911 in as a field gun for one day in a holster that was built for carrying a 1911. Within five minutes of starting my walk I checked the gun and the safety was off. I set it on. Then I checked it a few minutes later and the safety was off. I unloaded the gun, took it back to the car, and have never carried it again.  

Undoubtedly a different holster would have solved the problem, but I don't give dangerous machines very many chances when they fail. I resumed carrying a revolver.

A 1911 may be OK as a cop gun but it will take a lot to convince me that it's a good idea for a woodsman.

[Questor]

I think the psychological aspect of it is very important. If you don't have confidence in a gun, then that's an important reason for not using it.

[Savage]

Questor,
I wholeheartedly agree! If you are not comfortable with a firearm's platform, you should either train till you are or leave it alone. What you had with your 1911 was a holster problem. There are several holsters on the market that wipe the safety off on the 1911. The majority doesn't. Still, if you carry a bolt action, pump, semiauto shotgun or rifle with a chambered round, you are carrying "Cocked and Locked"!!
Savage

[Questor]

I believe it was a holster problem. The holster probably wasn't designed to handle one of the newer 1911s with ambidextrous safety.  It wasn't a cheapo holster though, it just wasn't any good.  I understand that, for example, a bolt action is carried cocked and locked. The difference is that it's not pointed at my leg when I'm carrying it.  That's a huge difference. I really like carrying revolvers best. I also like the double action semi-autos that have very safe designs, like the Glock.  Some day I'd like to own one.

[Savage]

Guess I'm not making my point very well. My point was, the 1911 design is not unsafe. It's all in the perception. People don't respond well to the visible stimulus of the cocked hammer. An HD or Glock carried in the same holster style doesn't cause concern. To fire either one of those, all you need to do is take a shooting grip withdraw it from the holster, and pull the trigger. With the 1911, in addition to the above steps, you
have to disengage the thumb safety. Sounds like an extra safety to me. I carry Glocks and CZ along with revolvers in addition to 1911s. Using the proper manual of arms, the safety of the platform is not a concern.
I say carry what you like, but understand that any design is only as safe as the operator.
Savage

[Questor]

In my case the cocked hammer isn't the visual stimulus that makes me lose confidence. I see the 1911 as being a kind of antiquated Rube Goldberg contraption with lots of things that can go wrong. Then I look at the simplicty and elegance of a double action revolver or a Glock and find them reassuringly well designed.  From what I've read, even the U.S. military had serious doubts about the 1911 because of the various policies that were in effect over the decades regarding the condition in which it could be carried.  I wonder if that was based on bureaucratic reasoning or a history of accidental discharges.

About the only good thing I can say about the 1911 is that it's hard to learn to shoot well, and therefore keeps me interested in it.

[Iowegan]

Savage, My point exactly!

Questor, The ambi thumb safety is one of the most dangerous devices ever made for a 1911. I have yet to see one that would suit  me. Fortunately, I'm a right hander so that isn't an issue. I can't imagen any right hander having an ambi safety on a 1911 or even lefties for that matter.

I carried a Commander for many years as a duty gun. My fellow Agents that were left handed learned "reach under or reach over" techniques to operate the thumb safety and slide lock. Seemed they could draw and shoot just as fast as right handers. Ambis were not allowed because of their potential for disaster.

A safe carry holster for a 1911 must have some basic features.  First, it must have a thumb break or snap through where the strap interrupts the hammer as mentioned before. Next, it must totally cover the trigger and thumb safety. Last, the mag release button must be accessible and not be against the side of the holster. I prefer a high ride leather hip holster where the butt of the gun fits in the small of my back with a 30 degree forward tilt. You should be able to stand, sit, drive, lie down, walk, and even run without impediment. You should also be able to draw the gun in all the fore mentioned positions. Cloth, canvas, plastic, and Cordura type fabric are out. A good leather holster can be soaked in a sink then the gun is placed in a plastic baggie and inserted into the holster. Use your fingers to stretch and mold the holster to the shape of the gun and arch of your hip. Let it dry for a day or so. The harder the leather the better. A soft leather or fabric holster will grab the gun when you try to pull it out.  Use a belt at least an inch and a quarter wide so it won't crumple when you try to draw. Alessi is my favorite brand.

It bothers me when someone knocks any gun because they haven't been trained properly on how to use it. I see so many shooters think training is standing flat footed and popping at beer cans, though it is a lot of fun. Attending a good combat course will really wake people up. If you carry a gun, you should practice shooting from a draw in the above positions. If your equipment doesn't work right, buy something that will. With the right gear, you will learn to be confident in your system should the need arise.

[Savage]

The current servivce pistol was chosen, as I understand, based on caliber, capacity, reliability, simplicity of operation, and parts interchangeability.  I'm sure price had a lot to do with it as well. Although the 1911 design is almost a century old, it's now the choice of many Special Operations Units as well as numerous SWAT teams around the country. As they have their choice of weapons, there must be some reason why they would choose the 1911 over one of the "Modern" designs. For purpose of definition, an AD is a discharge caused by a mechanical failure. Not to be confused with the more common ND which is caused by operator error. No action type is immune to the latter. I agree with you that anyone who thinks the 1911 is unsafe should not carry one.

Savage

[Questor]

I think the SWAT and special operations people are different in that they expect to use their guns more or less immediately. Most guys who carry a gun expect to use it seldom, if ever, and so the gun needs to be a very low maintenance and simple item.  

I shoot the 1911 more than all my other guns combined. It's an OK competition gun.  I've tried it for other stuff, but don't think too highly of it.

[Savage]

The correct manual of arms for the platform remains the same regardless of who's using it. They use the platform because it's safe and efficient, as most guns are in the right hands. It's also easier to shoot well than some of the other platforms. I own and use "Modern Guns" as well as the 1911. I maintain that the 1911 is a safe, accurate, and reliable platform, safer to carry than some of the "Modern" designs. If you feel unsafe carrying one, you probably are! Just don't blame it on the platform.
Cheers,
Savage

[Questor]

To each his own. I still think the 1911 is a good choice for a target pistol and that a revolver or modern DA auto is a better house gun.

What's a "manual of arms", and a "platform"? I don't think I've seen these terms in shooting literature. The distinction between AD and ND is one I have never seen either. Where are these terms from?

[Savage]

Quote:
To each his own. I still think the 1911 is a good choice for a target pistol and that a revolver or modern DA auto is a better house gun.
 Well-----alrighty then.

As clarification, a platform is the action type, ie: SA, DA, DAO. The manual of arms is the actions that must be performed to make the gun safe, ready to fire, or the actual firing of the gun.
AD  Accidental Discharge= the gun fires on it's own without operator malfunction.
ND Negligent Discharge= When operator error causes the gun to fire when it should not.
Well-----off to work, tonight I'll be carrying a modern pistol, a Glock 21 in nylon duty gear. I won't be too worried about carrying a gun without a safety-------
See Ya,
Savage

[Questor]

Thanks. I always end up learning something new and interesting with these little explorations.  Hopefully everyone else does too.

[dougk]

Ok I'm going back to the Sig P220.  Even though it does not has the 12 round capacity.  

Thanks,
Doug

[Iowegan]

Questor, I don't know what local resources you have available but the very best thing you can do for yourself is to attend a combat or tactital training course. You will come away with a completely different perspective. There are courses for revolvers and semi-autos. You will learn the "manual of arms", your marksmanship will improve, you will be able to select the best gear (holsters, mag pouches, belts, etc), and you will learn more about gun handling than you dreamed possible.

Over the years, I have attended a dozen or so courses and still learn something new each time. No one instructor knows it all and many courses teach totally different techniques. After attending, you can pick the techniques that work best for you. Even if you only attend one class, the knowledge will astound you.

The shooting industry is loaded with folks that get their firearms education from the movies. There are a lot of myths, old wives tales, and disinformation floating around that somehow get falsely turned into urban legends. It's easy to believe some of this crap because it often comes from reliable sources that believe it too. Why not get some good solid training from a professional so you can sort it out.

[dougk]

The shooting industry is loaded with folks that get their firearms education from the movies.

It is sad how wrong, misleading and inaccurate the movies are concerning firearm handling.

I did a search on "Manual of Arms" and found a great site for the Manual of Arms, 1764 http://www.doublegv.com/ggv/battles/Manual.html  I take it your using a more modern version  :-D  

Doug

[Questor]

Iowegan:

I've been thinking of doing just that. Not to become a tactical shooter, but because it seems like good cross training.