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Author Topic: Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W  (Read 863 times)

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Offline kombi1976

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« on: October 26, 2005, 03:42:11 PM »
H&R/NEF have just started chambering the new muscle bound pistol cartridge .500S&W in their Handi-Rifle.
It has a 22" barrel, more than twice the length of many pistols chambered to the new .500.
On their website Hodgdon says that using 45g of H110 it can drive a 275gn Barnes XPB bullet at 2082fps.
And that with 38gn of H110 it can drive a a hard cast 440gn pill at 1654fps.
Both of these loads are using a 10" pistol barrel.
Could anyone estimate the velocity the extra 12" would add?
Also, is it likely that slower burning rifle powders would make better use the longer barrel or are they unlikely to change the performance much?
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Offline KN

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2005, 03:50:33 PM »
Well the general rule is about 35-50 fps per inch. But I doubt that enough is known about the cartridge in rifle lengths to consider that accurate. I know that some cartridges will run out of steam before they exit at rifle lengths. You need to find some one with a chrono.  KN
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Offline quickdtoo

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2005, 04:44:28 PM »
You need to be looking in the H&R/NEF forum for info on the .500S&W Handi, there are several threads on it. Here are a couple of the latest with data.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=71375&highlight=500

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=71375&highlight=500
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Offline jerkface11

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2005, 02:21:31 AM »
I usually gain about 100 to 150 fps over what the data shows.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2005, 04:21:08 AM »
I will post up, with reports and chrono pics, once I get to the range with my new (FINALLY arrived) 500.
 I really want a good load for the Hornady 500 gr bullet and will be exploring a couple different powders. 1680, lil-gun as well as the regulars H110 ww 296 etc...
 I am hoping to get 1500-1600 fps, I dont think thats to far from reality...
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Offline kombi1976

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2005, 10:16:44 PM »
Out of interest, can anyone see the 500S&W as a viable dangerous game round in a rifle?
Would a decent solid or FMJ, say 350 to 400 grain, give it the clout it needs to knock over stuff like buffalo?
It certainly has a suitable meplat for it.
The longer barrel should push it close to 2000fps, quite a suitable velocity in the old big game doubles at the beginning of the 20th century.
Or are deer or moose or black bear the biggest game suitable for this cartridge?
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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2005, 01:57:51 AM »
I'm sure it will be done eventually, with the shooter backed up by a couple guides with 458 Lotts, but the 500 is a pistol cartridge, a great biggun, but still a pistol cartridge.

just my 2c,
Ian
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Offline kombi1976

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2005, 02:36:34 AM »
Fair call, Ian, fair call.
It's a pity that there aren't 50 cal cartridges these days to fill the gaps between the S&W and the 50 cal NE rifle cartridges in the same way that the 45-70 sits between cartridges like the 44 Mag and 45 Colt and the 458WM and 458 Lott.
Still, the .500 May prove fun for thumping hogs. :twisted:
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Offline cwlongshot

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2005, 04:27:01 PM »
Before I begin, HAYWIRE, NO offence meant.

ONLY a pistol cartridge you say...A bullet don't know what legnth barrel it comes out of! As long as the cartridge can propel a bullet of adequate sectional density, to a high enough velocity for respectable energy figures. With the 500, the fact that it starts out at a half inch in diameter, doesn't hurt it much either!! The way I see it, the jury is still out on how much velocity can be gained by the 22" long barrel. Suffice it to say, its performance from a vented pistol barrel will be improved upon!

 I remember when the 375 JDJ was new, people scoffed at it cause it to was only a "pistol round". Now it has successfully harvested all of Africas big five, hundreds of times over. Also consider many British African game calibers of yesteryear, never reached its power. Yet they harvested truck loads of Africas dangerous game with them.

The 40 S&W also got a bad rap from armchair afishanatos. (NOT inferring that Haywire is one) This cartridage did what the 45acp claimed to, push a 180gr bullet at 1000fps. None would debate the effectiveness of the 45ACP. Some called it the .40 Short & Weak, why, I may never know. Today its a respected lawenforcement caliber, one others are measured by.

Look at a given cartridges stats, compare them to cartridges that have proved reliable, thru the test of time, theres your litmus test for how they may perform.

Sorry for the rant...I'll get off my soap box now. :oops:  :o
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Offline kombi1976

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2005, 05:26:44 PM »
Quote from: cwlongshot
A bullet don't know what legnth barrel it comes out of! As long as the cartridge can propel a bullet of adequate sectional density, to a high enough velocity for respectable energy figures. With the 500, the fact that it starts out at a half inch in diameter, doesn't hurt it much either!!

Now see that was what I was thinking. :|
I had a bit of a look at Hodgdon's figures for the 45-70 and the 500S&W.
Lo and behold, with a 10" barrel and 44.5gn of Lil'Gun behind a 325gn Barnes XPB the .500 tops out at 2002fps.
The 45-70 with a 24" bbl and 55gn of H4198 behind a 300gn Sierra HP tops out at 2221fps.
Now the old govt. round does it with much lower pressure; 27600 CUP as a opposed to the S&W's 49100psi, but those extra 14" have gotta mean something and I've also gotta think that a slower burning powder would assist the .500 in a long barrel.
Rifle loads for the 357 Mag certainly give it a leg up.
Anyhow, we'll see what happens. :wink:
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Offline quickdtoo

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2005, 06:03:59 PM »
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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2005, 06:12:24 PM »
No offense taken of course, the 500 vs 45-70 is a very hotly debated subject and this is just an extension of that debate.  We've seen the chrono reports of the 500 out of the 22" Handi rifle(do a search for it in the NEF area).  It ain't no slouch, that's for certain.  It gets about a 100-150ish fps boost going from a 10" pistol to a 22" rifle barrel.  It seems to be about maxed out for pistol length barrels from what I've read.  

Ian
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Offline kombi1976

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2005, 12:44:58 AM »
Don't get me wrong, guys.
I wasn't suggesting the 500S&W is better than the 45-70.
Clearly they were designed for different tasks, well over a hundred years apart.
But the comparison was to highlight the strengths of the .500 considering it's intended purpose.
And as I said before I do believe that using rifle powders may see a rise in performance when chambered in a rifle.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2005, 12:58:05 AM »
Quote from: quickdtoo
45-70 vs 500 S&W????....again! :roll:

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=448931&highlight=#448931


YEA, we don't need to go there!!

  I wasn't tyring to debate the 500 S&W VS the 45-70. Only debate the thought process/comment that its only a pistol round. My reasoning is,  if a person would look at the stats an proven round. One that has a known performance record. That is close in paper stats to a unproven cartridge. You will get an IDEA as to how it may perform.

I have seen the thread where the author chronos a couple bullet weights/handloads but did not see many different powders used. I think with the correct powder this cartridges performance can be enhanced quite substantally.

In my 357 mag, 357 MAXI and my 45COLT loads get quite a boost in velocity and energy when shot from my rifle barrels, compared to my revolvers.

The MAXI, w/180gr bullets gets about 1500fps or so from the 10 contender bbl, yet with 1680 powder and the same bullet it tops 2200 fps from the 22" handi barrel!!

My 45 COLTS 300gr load, I am getting almost 1200fps yet in my 16" Marlin this tops 1600fps and out of the 20" tube 1750fps. This is all with WW296 powder.

Even my 45ACP even gets a boost from a 16" barrel, although nowhere near as substantial and if +p loads are not used the velocity actually goes down. But the capacity of this round is the problem, you simply cannot get enough powder into this case to make it perform. Rem 185gr +P Golden sabers get me almost 1500 fps from a 16" barrel, yet only clock at 1050 from my 5" GOVT model.

 This is my basis for my reasoning that I can get better stats from a rifle barrel with the 500 S&W. Not only is the published state from shorter barrels, they are VENTED barrels. Like other magnums have you seen the flash? Thats wasted power, power that will be utilised from a longer, non vented barrel.

Currently, I have a couple different loads ready to go, once I get a couple more I'll head to the range with my chrono and I'll be sure to post my results...good or bad!!

 CW
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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2005, 03:25:31 AM »
Quote from: cwlongshot
The MAXI, w/180gr bullets ~snip~ with 1680 powder ~snip~it tops 2200 fps from the 22" handi barrel!!

My 45 COLTS 300gr load, ~snip~ 1600fps and 1750fps ~snip~ with WW296 powder.


In my NEF Maxi, with 180gr bullets we stopped at 2050 with seriously flat primers.

In my 1894CB (24" barrel) 45 colt, I got 1600, but again with seriously flat primers and a 250gr bullet.  They were so hot that I only shot a couple of them and pulled the rest.

good luck,
Ian
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Offline cwlongshot

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2005, 05:18:55 PM »
Funny how similar things can be so different huh...
 Neither of my two loads was absolute max in my guns. I dont remember the amount of 1680 powder I load in the Maxi but I believe the COLT load is 23 grs if I remember correctly. The primers are slightly flattened, but thats not always the best sign of high pressures. Mike the web of the case and whtch it grow when you get the loads into the "warm" realm.

Both of my loads are using mag primers, Remingtons in the maxi and CCI in the 45.

As always the loads posted are safe in MY GUNS, Please reduse if loading in yours!!!

CW
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Offline cwlongshot

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Rifle velocities for the .500 S&W
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2005, 07:47:37 PM »
I got to the range today!!
 But forgot most of my loads at home!!!


I posted up in the NEF forum, here is the link:
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=76002
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