Author Topic: .444 Marlin or .45/70 for deer/black bear out to 200yds? (Read 4902 times)

SeaBass · « **on:** October 29, 2005, 01:51:19 PM »

Dreaming about what my next rifle will be. It will probably be a Marlin levergun in either .444 or .45/70. (leaning toward the.444).

I reload so factory ammo limitations are not an issue.

What do you think?

oso45-70 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 30, 2005, 10:29:47 AM »

SeaBass

I don't think it would make much difference which one you chose after you fired a shot from either one and made a good hit the animal you shot would be rite where you shot him. I know there are some people in Alaska that use the 444 as well as the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin for their all around gun, As you might guess I am partial to the 45-70 but would tackle any thing on the north American continent with any of the three mentioned above

........Joe..........

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** October 30, 2005, 03:31:40 PM »

I prefer the 444, I think it is a very under-rated 43 bore that is capable of taking anything ya want to shoot at. I have 3 rifles in that caliber, so far. I find the heavy weight cast bullets shot through a firelapped bore are incredible wumpers giving accuracy you simply do not believe. If you don't reload you really miss the potential, and fun, of that caliber. You can play with bullet weights all the way from 180 to 405 grains and there is at least one poster who has made it into a black powder cartridge.

I know you can do the same with the 45-70 and truly you cannot argue with the success of that old reliable cartridge. The 444 is just as capable in all regards......JMHO. Mikey

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #3 on:** October 31, 2005, 09:16:23 AM »

Voted .45-70 because. But let's face it - either one will work very well at that range.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #4 on:** November 02, 2005, 11:56:53 AM »

Voted for the 45-70... but either will do the job nicely, but I'm just a big fan of the 45-70's :lol:

Capt. Call · « **Reply #5 on:** November 02, 2005, 04:10:04 PM »

It is as simple as this ....

If you reload then go with the 45-70 if not its the 444.

With that said I will tell you I have been reloading 30 years and I have the 444. I just love this rifle and have shot more than enough deer to say it works with out question....but I voted for the 45-70....go figure!

Just like how many licks are in a Tootsie Pop...The world may never know!

Kates · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2005, 12:02:19 PM »

Out of curiosity, what is the effective range on a .444 before there is significant drop?

VTDW · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2005, 12:50:26 PM »

As you know I am sold on the .444. For trajectory purposes and the quarry you named I vote the venerable .444.

Dave

RemingtonMagnum · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2005, 08:37:37 AM »

HI Friends

While the 444 has some distinct advantages over the 45/70 it is the 45/70 that I personally want as one of my next rifles. Now to get the dollars needed for the purchase.

Wall Mart has a great buy on a Marlin 45/70 with a 26" barrel. $543.37 with hex barrel. Will post pix after Santa gets it here maybe???

Don Jackson Remington Magnum

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2005, 09:36:03 AM »

When compared to your 250gr Nosler PT @ 2300fps my 400gr JSP @ 1950 drops a whopping 1.3" more at 200 yards if both are zeroed at 150 yards. IT also hits with almost 800flbs more energy. Even factory ammo with a 300gr partition gold compared to the hornady 265gr the 45/70 has only 1.5" more drop at 200 and carries 100flbs more energy.

The 444 is a fine cartridge but I just don't see how it is so much flatter shooting than the 45/70. The 45/70 has a definate advantage in bullet weight and thumping power especially on larger game.

service rifleman1 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 22, 2005, 04:46:11 AM »

I own a 444 SS so I am partial but I have never shot a 45/70. I hunt with a 6.5 * 55 and have yet to take the Marlin into the bush. For me I have doubts whether or not the game could tell the difference when proper loads are used in either rifle. I have handloaded for the Marlin since I bought it after the partial box of factory loads that came with it were spent. Anything from swaged 240 grain pistol bullets with Unique to loading the Speer 300 sp I feel that this versatile whomper could match similar 45 loads any day of the week. I also load muzzle loading .431 balls out of the marlin with IMR 4227 pwder at 20 grains with some dacron filler and these are fun to shoot. I have been informed that you can load up to three of these balls in the marlin but so far I have just used one. I believe these balls weigh about 100 grains and short range accuracy is pretty good. I would like to try and load some shot in the 444 just for kicks and maybe for hunting some small game birds. Great gun and easy to handload for any purpose, I just need to get out there and hunt with it. Regards

Bubba w/a 45/70 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 22, 2005, 06:21:46 PM »

My vote is for the 45/70. I have successfully made a kill at 280 yards on a deer with open sights. He was dead from one hit at that range, total heart/lung devastation from a 300 gr HP.

If you already own a .44 mag and want to "consolidate" your bullet selection, then I would probably lean towards the 444. Within the 200 yard limitation that you put on your selection criteria, either one will suffice with a modicum of practice on your part.

*EDIT*
changed 350 to 300 grain HP Didn't check typing as close as I thought I did.

Triple4 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 29, 2005, 03:27:27 AM »

Quote from: Bubba w/a 45/70

My vote is for the 45/70. I have successfully made a kill at 280 yards on a deer with open sights. He was dead from one hit at that range, total heart/lung devastation from a 350 gr HP.

If you already own a .44 mag and want to "consolidate" your bullet selection, then I would probably lean towards the 444. Within the 200 yard limitation that you put on your selection criteria, either one will suffice with a modicum of practice on your part.

What was your velocity and hold over on that shot?

Bubba w/a 45/70 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 29, 2005, 04:56:36 PM »

As far as velocity, I have no idea. I'll give you my hunting load that was used:

300gr Hornay HP
38.0 grains of H4198
Winchester Mag primer
Winchester brass

Holdover??? Well that was with the rear sight in the tallest notch, and using the front sight base about 2/3 of the way down it.

How's that for scientific?

Now, to be fair, this was the third shot on the buck. He just stood there and let me walk them into him. I shoot a 45/70 quite a bit, so holdover for me isn't too hard. I'm talking 100 rounds in a weekend when I shoot. No BS. But that is with a different gun/load (Trapdoor/45/70), but still the same principles.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2005, 03:21:55 AM »

Heres my loads that I would use for hunting:

300g Speer Uni-Cor HP @ 2247fps
350g Speer JFP @ 2147fps
350g North Fork @ 2183fps
460g Cast performance WFNGC @ 1812fps

The top three all have a Maximum Point Blank Range between 200-205 yards if given a target 6 in diameter.

The North Fork load is the one I hunt with. Zeroing for MPBR results in a point of impact +3.0 high at 100 yards and -2.7 at 200. At 275 yards it is down 15.9 and still carries 1500 foot-pounds of energy. Two years ago I took a forkhorn mulie and a 6x6 bull elk at 197 and 213 lasered yards respectively with this load. There is no problem at 200 yards

fknipfer · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2006, 04:57:12 PM »

Having both a 444 Marlin and a 45/70 Marlin my personal choice for a black bear is the 444 with the 265gr Hornady Light Magnum round. In my rifle with a 22" barrel this thing shoots exceptionaly well, like the round was made especially for my rifle. At 100 yds it will shoot less than an 1.0" groups, at 100yds 2140 ft lbs of energy and at 200yds 1400 ft lbs. I don't know of many black bears that get shot over that range although there probably are some. 50 to 100yds probably is the average. Although I have never fired the leverevolution ammo yet, they claim 2285ft lbs at 100yds and 1606 ft lbs of energy at 200 yds with -1.4" od drop. This rifle is pretty easy to shoot and recoils about like a 30-06 with heavy loads.
My 45-70 is my big rifle being used for Buffalo and Big Bears (Grizzly).
If I need 405 grain bullets and hot loaded ammo there is a reason so the recoil will be justified, but not for black bear. Thats my opinion and we all know opinions are like A$$$$$$S and everyone has one.

fknipfer

doncisler · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2006, 04:53:55 PM »

all i have shot with my .45-70 are deer, black bear and boar but nothing has every ran away. one boar staggered about 25 feet but all the others dropped where they were standing.
the black bear ( admittedly not a large one ) went down like a buick had landed on it and the guides commented that it looked like the logs behind it had been spray painted with blood.

Dune · « **Reply #17 on:** April 17, 2006, 05:01:32 PM »

seabass, you ever seen a deer 200 yds away, they are pretty tiny, I chose 444 just an opinion good luck with that. Dune

Rev Buck · « **Reply #18 on:** April 29, 2006, 11:10:32 AM »

I voted for the .45/70 also but of course either round will do. Rev

Old Time Hunter · « **Reply #19 on:** May 01, 2006, 05:42:55 AM »

My vote: .444

DirtyDan · « **Reply #20 on:** May 19, 2006, 09:37:18 AM »

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444.htm This might be of interest. I lean to the 45-70 because of tradition, but voted 444 after reading this.

B_Koes · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2006, 08:23:36 PM »

Quote from: fknipfer

Thats my opinion and we all know opinions are like A$$$$$$S and everyone has one.

fknipfer

Yeah...and they generally stink too!

And my choice would be for a .45-70...mainly because I'd really like to have one right now...

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #22 on:** May 20, 2006, 02:16:18 AM »

Quote from: DirtyDan

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444.htm This might be of interest. I lean to the 45-70 because of tradition, but voted 444 after reading this.

Paco is pushing the 444 to over 50,000 PSI in the Winchester 94 Big Bore to get a 300 grain bullet going 2400 fps. The 45-70 loaded to that pressure in a Ruger #1 will push a 300 grain bullet over 2500 fps. You will never get a 300 grain bullet from a 444 going much over 2200 fps in a Marlin with a sane load. The 45-70 can push a 300 grain bullet in a Marlin 2375 fps in a 22" barrel.

Regarding Marlin lever guns loaded to their potential, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 will drive a bullet of similar configuration and construction at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 will drive a bullet of similar configuration and construction significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 will shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin while providing more power and recoil.

WyoStillhunter · « **Reply #23 on:** May 20, 2006, 03:58:48 AM »

I voted for .444 Marlin because I own one. :-) And that doesn't really mean skwat. By next Christmas I will have a real basis for touting the .444.

Meanwhile, such luminaries as the Ranch Dog on Marlin Owners and Marshall Stanton at the Shooters Forum have convinced me that the .444 is definately an effective 200 yd. deer/bear gun.

Go to Beartooth Bullets (ShootersForum) and check out Marshall's three articles about the .444 in the Tech Tips section.

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #24 on:** May 20, 2006, 04:17:28 AM »

I use the M,Mable for bear,it is a 450 ported and perfect for Black bears dumb usually by Yo Semite with a ear tag and want humand food and are use to humans.The 450 puts them down faster than my old loads of 220 in 3006 or even a 12Ga slug.

Racer X · « **Reply #25 on:** July 18, 2006, 03:31:00 PM »

My vote is for the 45/70. Reasons...

1) Most 444 bullets (jacketed anyway) are made for 44 magnum handguns and are not designed to hold together at 444 velocities. One of the few exceptions is the 265 Hornady. Cast bullets work well and are available in heavier weights than traditionally made in jacketed.

2) 45/70 is more versatile -- Loads as light as a 300 grain HP factory load for deer, 350 to 400 grain for Hogs, Elk, larger black bears and moose, and 500 + grains for really big game such as large bears, cape buffalo or american bison.

Rscout6945 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:01:33 AM »

45/70 gets my vote and my money.

more bullets to select from for heavy game, ammo at just about any gun store. what more do you need?

sgtfri714 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2006, 04:35:38 AM »

I have had a 45/70 in one form or another in my gun cabinet since 1978. Currently I own a Marlin 1895SS that I also reload for. At the end of the day, I really doubt that anything you shot with either out to 150 yard would be able to tell the difference. Unlike the 444 Marlin that can share bullets with the 44 Magnum, I have always thought it would have been nice if the 45/70 and 45 Colt could have shared the same bore diameter, as 300gr bullets would have had interesting dual use potential for hunting deer and such while 255gr LSWC would have made fun plinking loads in the 45/70.

Mulegunner · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2006, 06:21:40 AM »

Does it really matter?!?!

Ive owned and harvested whitetails with both the .444 marlin and 45/70 govt. Both are highly effective "brush" calibers. I can not attest to 200 yard effectiveness. I dont shoot at deer that far away .....its kind of brushy here....not to mention that mountains get in the way too. Either caliber has the same result with a well placed shot... line up the sights....pull the trigger....the deer hits the ground very hard!

.

nomosendero · « **Reply #29 on:** August 13, 2006, 05:04:38 PM »

For the subject at hand, Black Bear out to 200 yards, it is tit for tat. The 300gr. 444 bullet & the 350gr. 45-70 bullet have the same approx. Sec. Den. & the traj. out to 200 yds. is about the same with both loaded to equal pressures. I would go with the 45-70 if bigger animals will be hunted later.

If hunting in an area like many East of the Rockies that offer Black Bears, Deer & Hogs, you will get the same results with either rounds.

So, I would consider what else I will do with the gun.

Poll

.444 or .45/70 for deer/black bear at 200yds?

Author Topic: .444 Marlin or .45/70 for deer/black bear out to 200yds? (Read 4902 times)