Author Topic: Newbie Question?  (Read 825 times)

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Offline sabotloader

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Newbie Question?
« on: November 02, 2005, 07:46:02 AM »
I am totally new to the 45acp.  I have a Springfield 8a

How safe is half cock?  I am thinking if a person fell or the gun was dropped with a live round in the chamber and the hammer was set at 1/2 cock?

Second question... when shooting lately I have notice that the neck of an ejected case is bent on one side.. like it is hitting something before beign thrown out of the gun... any thoughts.  I did put a new Wilson Combat spring and buffer in it.

Thanks for any information...
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2005, 07:54:22 AM »
It takes a very heavy blow on half cock to fire a round as to the case it is the new spring as the slide is slaming into a partially ejected case---notice the difference of where the fell from where the fell with the old spring?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline sabotloader

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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2005, 08:08:11 AM »
IntrepidWizard,

Great graphic...

I was and am sure it is tied to the new spring... and I can understand what you are telling me... as I remember I did not have this problem with the orginal factory spring.  I thought I needed the heavier spring becuase I am shooting a very hot reload actually comparable to the Corbin 45-P

I know there are no guarantees but I felt the half-cock position was relatively safe to a normal blow.

Thanks for the information...
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline MSP Ret

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Newbie Question?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2005, 08:14:41 AM »
I am unsure of the half cock position relative to the grip safety, but I always carry my 1911 Condition 1 anyway, cocked and locked, it has never been a problem in 40 years or so....<><.... :grin:
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Questor

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Newbie Question?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2005, 08:57:56 AM »
Half cocked doesn't seem to be an option for the 1911. There are three "conditions" in which it is typically holstered:
1) Round in the chamber, hammer fully cocked, saftey on
2) Round in the chamber, hammer not cocked
3) No round in chamber


To me, the only one that makes any sense at all for carry is the first one. The third one makes some sense if you're using it as a home defense gun and it's sitting in a drawer or pistol safe.

Certain theoretically minded people with lots of time on their hands also identify two other conditions:
0) Same as 1, but with the safety off
4) Same as 3, but with no magazine in the gun
Safety first

Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2005, 05:00:46 PM »
The half cock position on a 1911 hammer was designed to prevent the gun from going full auto should a sear malfunction. It was not designed as a safety for carrying the gun. The half cock lip on the hammer is usually very brittle and will break off quite easily. Many new style 1911 hammers don't have a half cock position just so people won't try to use them as a safety.

Believe it or not, when the hammer is in the full forward position, the gun is much safer than at half cock. Either way you have to cock the hammer or jack the slide to make the gun ready to shoot. Why not carry it the way it was designed? See Questor's condition 1.
GLB

Offline sabotloader

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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2005, 06:17:37 PM »
Iowegan, & Questor,

You both are in agreement, fully cocked with safety on? That really seems odd to me...

I have a new Springfield and it does have a 1/2 cock position.  I carry the gun in a hip holster during muzzleloading season.  I really can not feature to many times that I might need it immediately but, I was thinking if I am going to carry a round in the chamber what would be the safest way to do that?

Iowegan, what do you mean "full forward?"
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline jebsr

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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2005, 10:38:48 AM »
Cocked and locked with safey on is best carry method.  If you have doubts, get at thumb break holster that the strap fits between cocked hammer and frame for carry.

jebsr

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2005, 01:39:49 PM »
I see nothing tricky or unsafe in cocked & locked.
It takes a little manipulation to discharge the weapon when in this configuration.
If, when drawing the weapon from the holster and an accidental swipe of the safety takes the safety off, one must still disengage the grip safety.
It can, and has, been done causing an AD.
For this reason one must become VERY familiar with his weapon and practice safe drawing techniques.
Can the safety be disengaged accidentally in the scabbard. Yes it can but there is still the grip safety.
Do not remove the weapon with ones finger inside the trigger guard and never hold the weapon with ones finger inside the trigger guard whether a 1911 or SIG, walther or any other weapon to include a revolver or rifle.
You can trust mechanical devices so far and your training will not prevent, 100%, you making an error but in combination of the two and YOU being aware of the responsiblities you have, things should be ok.
Many have never experienced an AD, but some of the best have and with weapons designed to be as safe as possible.
Be aware at all times and ALL weapons are loaded and will discharge.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2005, 01:59:40 PM »
sabotloader, Yes, I believe Questor and I are in agreement this time.

Full forward means the hammer is neither cocked or at half cock but in the position where the hammer is touching the firing pin. Remember, a 1911 firing pin is an inertia device; meaning it travels quite a distance from the time the hammer hits it until it strikes the primer. If the firing pin was resting on the primer, this would be a dangerous condition. John Browning made a lot of excellent but subtle safety designs in the 1911. You could probably drop an uncocked 1911 directly on the hammer and not have it go off, though I wouldn't want to try it.

There are dozens of different hammer designs for the 1911. The original design had a set of ears on the hammer at half cock that would grab the sear should it be falsely released. It also had a large spur that was easy to hold for manually cocking and decocking. Newer hammers don't have the ears but instead have a flat surface for half cock that looks much like the full cock notch. You can pull the trigger on one of these and the gun will go off. With the old type, you could pull the trigger as hard as possible and never discharge the gun. As I stated before, many new hammers don't even have a half cock notch.

No doubt, anyone that hasn't been properly trained will get goosey when they see a hammer cocked. It's really a psycological thing more than a safety issue. When you see a gun with an internal hammer or striker, you don't even think about it but it is really in the same condition as a 1911 when cocked.

When a 1911 is carried cocked and locked (thumb safety on) and a round chambered, all you have to do to make the gun ready to shoot is grab the grip safety and switch the thumb safety off. When a gun is in condition 2, (loaded chamber, hammer down), you must cock the hammer and grip the gun to make it ready. Not only does it take more time to cock the gun than switch the safety off, it can also be dangerous. When you are excited, it's very easy for your thumb to slip off the hammer, especially the newer style skeleton hammers. This is much more risky than having the hammer cocked.

Condition 3 (empty chamber, hammer down) is also a safety risk and slow to make the gun ready to shoot. After you draw the weapon, you must muster enough strength to pull the slide back all the way and let it load a round. Now you have to reposition the gun in your hand to be ready to shoot. During this process, the muzzle is seldom able to be held on target. In other words, the gun may be aimed at something you didn't intend to shoot.  If you try this simple test, you'll see what a risk it is. With an empty gun and no magazine inserted, draw the gun and operate the slide. Notice where you forefinger ended up during this process. Yup, right on the trigger. This is a very unsafe procedure and should be avoided.

If you own a 1911 and plan to carry it for self defense or hunting, you really owe it to yourself to go to a tactical training class. You will learn all sorts of safety things about a 1911 that are not obvious. With proper training, you will also learn old John made about the safest semi-auto on the market.
GLB

Offline sabotloader

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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2005, 02:33:31 PM »
Outstanding response - thank you.

I have been shooting rifles for what seems 100's of years but my pistol experiance is really limited to Navy boot camp and some on board training back in the 60's.  That is why I posed the question in the first place.

Your answers explaine why and that is really important - rather than do it this way because I say to..

Thanky you all for the help....
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline Savage

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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2005, 01:30:35 AM »
Ah, the Navy way----------condition 3! Imagine having a K-9 on a leash in one hand and a condition 3 1911 in the other. Imagine you need the pistol really bad. By the time you draw and charge the pistol one handed,
the fight's over, and you lost.
Point is, you need to be able to access you pistol, make it ready to fire with one hand, quickly. Many times your off hand is busy fending off an attacker, opening a door,  holding a flashlight, or a number of other things that might need to be done at the moment. Condition 1 is the only carry mode that allows you to get the 1911 into action with one hand, quickly. It's also the safest.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Mikey

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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2005, 04:29:24 AM »
Yep, the Navy does that or at least used to.  And those guys would always ask us why we carried our 45s with a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked and the slide safety on - 'cause that's the way they taught us in the Army.............................. (ooooops).  

I was also taught there are only two ways to carry a 1911/1911A1:  Condition 1 as the Iowegan and Questor call it (round chambered, hammer at full cock and slide safety engaged), and Condition 3 (for dress parades and other duties not classified as 'Hostile' or 'Dangerous').  

The process of having to cock a hammer to full cock takes another 1-1.5 seconds off your time.  This is not good, as you only have about 1-1.5 seconds when you need it.  If you are carrying the thing for self defense you're not likely to have the leisure of that added time to bring the pistol into action.  Just a thought here.  Mikey.

Offline 1911crazy

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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2005, 03:44:33 PM »
The only way I carry my 1911a1 for personal protection is chambered, fully cocked and locked with a full mag of 7rds + 1rd in the chamber +6 extra mags.  ( I still  have a vision of the sarge on saving private ryan throwing his 1911 at the german soldier after it was empty, i don't plan on going empty)I can't see any other way to carry it, it has to be ready at any time for a quick defence mode. Like Mikey says if it takes too many seconds you lose. Time is a big factor.  Ever lock your slide open and practice how fast you can drop out an empty mag and put in a full one? Ever try it without watching what your doing? How about cleaning your 1911a1 in the dark?