Poll

Were you for PCP's air rifles in "Sporter" calss?

Yes
15 (50%)
no
15 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 30

Voting closed: November 02, 2005, 09:11:09 AM

Author Topic: PCP Sporter poll  (Read 4916 times)

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Offline GeoNLR

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PCP Sporter poll
« on: November 02, 2005, 09:11:09 AM »
Not to beat a dead horse (Even though most of us can smell the rott)... But I wanted to have a post where we can see anonymously where people fell on the PCP's in sporter class. It seems like if you were for it, you said EVERYONE was for it. Likewise if you were against it, you said EVERYONE was gainst it. That just dosent's seem possible (either way)

Rules of this post -

Please submit an answer to the poll question (1), even if you are not registered or don't care to post your opinion. Let's just get a head count!

Make one post with your opinion on why you are for it/ against it and what possible changes you would have made to it. Please do not "respond" to others posts or "quote" people, just state your opinion and let it stand on it's own.

Thanks,

Chicken

Offline GeoNLR

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I was for it.
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2005, 09:18:56 AM »
I felt like it opened the door to a whole new group of shooters. I feel that the spring rifles are a thing of the past and yesterdays technology. They limited who could participate.

I think the rule was a little too "Open" and felt like the Rifle Silhouette rule of hunting style stocks could have been added to "tweak" the rule change to allow a new breed of true "hunting" air rifles into a class other than open with all the race guns such as the AZ's, Anschutz, Walthers, etc.

I know a group of air rifle shooters was started at my club and that would not had happened with out the rule change.

If I were a gambling man I would bet that they return to the ranks within the sporter class. Rules tweaked a bit, but back in there.

Chicken

Offline Jason

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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2005, 05:44:51 PM »
I was actually going to try to find a place to shoot air rifle sporter class with my springer until the PCP guns were allowed in. It sounded like a great way to get in more practice for my rimfire matches and I could actually do it in my back yard. Having shot a few PCP guns, it was obvious even to me as an airgun novice, how much easier they were to shoot accurately, though. Not wanting to invest in a setup to shoot PCP just to have a chance at actually being competitive, I abandoned the idea.

I'd be for a separate PCP Sporter class, but having them compete with the springers, the class I thought was there to get new shooters who hadn't dropped a ton of money into the sport already, didn't make sense to me. Evidently, I'm not the only one who thought so.

Offline Varn1808

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PCP Sporter poll
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2005, 08:24:05 AM »
Since I own a Walther PCP sporter I am obviously for it. I do feel it opened the class to people of smaller stature. I also feel that it should be in a separate class since there is no comparison between flipping a lever to load (PCP) or cocking a spring with approx. 38 lb of effort. I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why a PCP is acceptable in Target class and not acceptable in Sporter class. You have to cock a springer in either class and that is the only explanation I have ever heard as to why people are against PCP's in sporter. Following this same thought process, they should have also outlawed PCP's in Target. Nonetheless, I feel that the PCP sporter has a place whether it be in a separate class or not. Thank you.  Mark Varner

Offline Heavybarrel

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PCP Sporter poll
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2005, 02:39:50 PM »
Hello Gentleman,
 Maybe if the silhouette committee(the anonymous bunch)would have got some input like this poll, in 2004, for the new sporter rules,we would not be overturning them in 2005. I don't understand why rules are changed without the input of the shooters. Not everyone can attend the meetings at the National Championship. I suggest a poll of proposed rules be mailed or emailed to competitors defining each rule with a yea or ney vote! Majority wins and there is no bitching. Thanks for allowing me to vent,Butch
Butch

Offline Heavybarrel

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PCP Sporter poll
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2005, 02:49:11 PM »
An add on from previous post- The NRA could send proposed rule changes to the registered clubs holding silhouette matches to post. The shooter would get the info and vote on the NRA website or mail it in. Also I should note,I do not own or shoot a sporter pcp and am not biased toward the ruling,I am biased on how it was handled and enacted.
Butch

Offline nomad

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PCP Sporter poll
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2005, 05:56:06 AM »
Since George has asked for one post about this, here's mine:

1. In case anyone doesn't know why this whole thing came about, it was because ONE guy at NRA who DOESN'T shoot silhouette -- their 4H liason -- decided that changing the rule would allow the 4H kids with their cheapo pcp rifles to be competitive in Sporter...and the committee, out of ignorance, went along with him. (At the time, there was no one on the committee who shot airgun but they felt that that shouldn't deter them from changing the rules without asking for input from any airgun match directors or airgun competitors. If they had, this problem would not exist.) IOW, unlike the accusations that have been leveled about THIS year's change-back, LAST year's rule change WAS 'rammed down our throats by one guy' -- and he doesn't even play the game. Not only that, his whole premise was flawed -- those cheapies never were and never will be able to compete in Sporter as his 'rule change' was supposed to permit them to do. Right there you have a valid reason for throwing the change out and returning to the earlier version of the rule...unless you think that outsiders 'should' be writing your rules for you!

2. I fail to understand the 'We wuz cheated and now we don't have a class to shoot in!' response to the reversion. The pcp guns are fully competitive in Open class, just as they have been for years. Shoot them there. (I'm pretty sure that a guy on the left coast name of Dennis-something ;-) has turned in a 'clean' 60 in a local match with a Walther Hunter and that's tough to improve upon.) The only restriction in the new (old) rule is that Sporter is left to springers -- as it always was. IMO, competing with a full-house pcp gun in Sporter against springers is like riding your Harley in the bicycle portion of an Iron-Man competition and then arguing with those who think you're taking advantage. I doubt that it can be shown that it makes sense to shoot the same course twice (Sporter and Open) with the same gun -- just as most everyone has been doing over the last year -- and call that two different venues. If we're going to do that, we might as well eliminate Sporter and just shoot Open & Target.

3. The comparison to Target is unworkable. AFAIK there are NO top-of-the-line 10M spring guns even being made any more. Moving to the pcp gun there was a no brainer. The high velocity springer, however, is alive and well and in current production -- and available for about 30% of the cost of the Walther Hunter. (It just isn't fully competitive with the recoilless pcp rifle.)

4. The rules committee is not anonymous. Anyone can contact NRA and get their names. (The meetings are even open to the public -- although I think you do have to be a current NRA member. If you want to attend all you have to do is go. Don't expect that you will be given the floor to tie things up -- AFAIK it doesn't work that way.) Frankly, I wouldn't want the job since it's not possible to make everyone happy and there's constant flak. They did screw up last year when they made this Sporter change (and IMO they've now corrected that error) but there's now at least one airgun shooter on the committee and, hopefully, they have learned that, when they don't have anyone who knows the answer, they need to get on the phone to someone who does. I can certainly understand why they don't go out of their way to publish their personal contact information. We've had some pretty juvenile attacks on this board over waaaaaaaaay too many things. They naturally don't want that stuff cluttering up their personal mail. Letters -- or emails -- written to the committee care of the silhouette department all go to them for consideration. That's as it should be. If you want to contact them and make your opinion known, WRITE!

As for competitor meetings at National matches, there's no question that not everyone can attend all those matches. IMO it is also unquestionable that those dedicated enough to the game TO attend those matches should be heard more loudly than people who prefer to stay on the porch and let the big dogs travel...and then complain that no one heard them barking! Life ain't always fair. Either live with it or get off the porch and bark where you can be heard.

5. The idea of a NPRM has been suggested often to NRA. AFAIK ATC has it. IMO we should also -- but the powers that be are not going along with that. If you think it's a good idea (I do) write the committee.  

(In my version, proposed rule changes -- other than safety matters -- would be 'proposed' at the annual mtg. They would then be published on the website and in SSUSA and notification sent to all match directors holding matches in that particular venue for dissemination to the competitors. At the NEXT annual mtg, responses would be tallied and the rule would live or die by those responses. IOW, "If you don't vote you don't count!" Also, IMO, proposed changes and votes should be rejected immediately unless they come from someone who can prove that he/she has competed in at least 3 matches within the previous year in EVERY venue affected by that proposal. IOW. DON'T write a proposal for airgun that screws up something in HP and then try to weasel with: "Gee guys, since I don't shoot highpower rifle, I didn't know that would happen!")

6. George's Poll here is a good idea but it's a bit short. (I only see 19 responses.) In addition, polls like this are hardly fail-safe. It's my understanding that the letters/emails to the committee -- which are all that really count -- were decidedly in favor of reverting to the rule as it had been in 2004 and before.

I'm sorry the committee didn't think this one through last year when they screwed up a system that had been working pretty well. I'm glad that they corrected their error. I'm also glad that we've got a new committee member who has lots of airgun experience both as a competitor and a match director. That's my one and only post on this -- as George has requested. I just want to shoot and put this (now corrected) fiasco behind me.
E Kuney

Offline RamSlammer

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PCP Sporter poll
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2005, 02:17:15 PM »
G'Day All
            Here in Australia we only rewrite the rules every 5 years and each state delegate has input towards the new book each time. As the delegate is the representive of the members in theory if they have a issue they want raised the delegate brings it to the meeting. We now have changed our ruling on Air Rifle so that we have one class. The book reads "Any Air rifle, any calibre, with a maximum weight of 7 kg(15 pound 6.913 ounces)including sights, that is completely self contained at the time of firing." This rule change came about to simplify things and has worked out perfect. The full set of Australian rules can be found under competition info at www.ssaa.org.au.
 
Juddy

Offline 1armoured

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PCP Sporter poll
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2005, 05:01:48 PM »
I'm with Juddy the 'roo.

We also have one class, anything goes, in 'Godzone'.
Most only have the one air-gun.

There seems to be less and less difference between the PCP 'Target' and 'Sporter' rifles these days, except for the stocks.
I for one prefer the lighter weight sporters anyway.
I shoot a well used Falcon FN19 sporter in .22 FAC.

No reason why there shouldn't be a separate class for 'Springers', as well though.
If there are enough numbers and support for three classes,
i.e. Target, Sporter, and Springer, then so be it.

Sean

Offline Fat NDN

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Re: PCP Sporter poll
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 09:39:54 AM »
If this is suppose to be MATCH COMPETITION. Then all things should be equal. The PCP's should be in their own class. The springers are in no way equal to the PCP.
I have not shot my springer in a match, but I have seen both guns fired and their is no comparison.
Well that's my 2 cents.

 .
 One Shot - One Kill