Author Topic: .25-06 limitations? (Read 2908 times)

mjbgalt · « **on:** November 03, 2005, 11:53:40 AM »

I have a Ruger No. 1 in .25-06 and I plan on using it for deer. If I were to want to use it on elk or caribou, would this be acceptible? The case is the same parent case as the .270 and the bullet weight is only 10 to 20 grains less than a .270.

If the .270 is considered more than enough for this, shouldn't the .25-06 be acceptible...for instance, like a .243 on a deer?

-Matt

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #1 on:** November 03, 2005, 02:03:32 PM »

Quote from: mjbgalt

I have a Ruger No. 1 in .25-06 and I plan on using it for deer. If I were to want to use it on elk or caribou, would this be acceptible? The case is the same parent case as the .270 and the bullet weight is only 10 to 20 grains less than a .270.

If the .270 is considered more than enough for this, shouldn't the .25-06 be acceptible...for instance, like a .243 on a deer?

-Matt

mjbgalt

Ive been chasing elk for over 20 years and consider the .270Win with a good 150g bullet to be the minimum cartridge most folks should use. By good bullet I mean something like a Speer Grand Slam, Nosler Partition, Speer Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frame, North Fork, Barnes TSX, etc.

People can make a good argument for the 6.5mms because of their ability to use 140g and even 160g bullets. Again I would go with the bullets listed above.

By the time you get to a .25 caliber you are pretty well limited to bullets of 120g and less. Here I would forget the Grand Slams and Partitions and use only 120g Trophy Bonded and A-Frames and 115g TSX. (No North Forks available.) These will certainly take an elk if you do your part and select your shot, but they are not what I would want in my hands following a bad shot when the elk is heading north.

That said, I wanted to take my .257 Roberts elk and mulie hunting this fall but didnt complete load development with the A-Frame in time. Its ready now, with a +P load using a 120g A-Frame @ 2947fps. But I would still be very selective on my shots.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #2 on:** November 03, 2005, 02:40:23 PM »

but a lot of people shoot elk quite dead with 130 grain loads.

that's the basis for my question.

-Matt

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #3 on:** November 03, 2005, 02:53:10 PM »

In my opinion, yes, you can hunt elk with the right 117 - 120 grain ammunition. That means premium bullets like the Nosler Partition and Accubond or the CT Technologies Partition Gold or Fail Safe. Sierra also makes a really good HP in 120 grain, and Hornady is supposed to be coming out with a .257 Interbond in the near future. If these are even available to you and you hand load or can afford the primo ammo... I also own a Ruger .25-06 and have had the same question. Happened to be in a gunshop when an old timer told me about his experiences using a .25-06 on Elk. Made me a believer.

There are better calibers for it. 30-06 to start, 7mm Rem Mag and
7mm WSM also. Don't forget the .280 Rem. Even though its possible, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. I like one shot kills that cause as little suffering as possible. Depending on your immediate hunting situation re: terrain, animal size, rut status, etc. , a .25-06 may be undergunned for your needs. However, it can be done.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #4 on:** November 03, 2005, 05:22:52 PM »

Quote from: mjbgalt

but a lot of people shoot elk quite dead with 130 grain loads.

that's the basis for my question.

-Matt

This year I talked to a gentleman from Alabama who had shot a bull at 60 yards with a .338 Win Mag. He ended up trailing the bull for half a mile before losing the blood trail. On the other hand, I have seen more elk wounded with a .243 Win than any other individual cartridge. Biggest bull Ive ever seen in the wild was easily outpacing the young man that had wounded it with his .243 Win. A .25-06 is a good step up from the .243 Win, but its still marginal for elk. When people ask me what I recommend for a youth gun I recommend a .30-30 with a 170g bullet instead.

The point is, placement counts but even when properly placed the bullet has to make it to the vitals. Yes, a .25-06 can take an elk. So can a .270 with 130g bullets. So can a .22-250. But there are better choices.

Do yourself a favor and get something more suitable.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #5 on:** November 03, 2005, 05:33:02 PM »

well youre the one from colorado where they actually HAVE elk. so i tip my hat and accept your advice.

i dont have anything larger in my gunsafe but i also dont plan on shooting an elk anytime soon.

if i do i may have a reason to buy another rifle

-Matt

tcman · « **Reply #6 on:** November 05, 2005, 05:11:42 AM »

I'm from Colorado too...and I have taken a bunch of elk with the 25-06 and have never had one get away. They have been as they say DRT (Dead Right There)....ps I use the 100 grain Sierra bullet....yes that's right, 100 grain.

I only take lung shots. Both of my 25-06 rifles have been dead-on accurate.

My first 25-06 started life as a 30-06, which had more kick than I cared to take any more...quite frankly, a 30-30 isn't much better in the "kick" area.

In the nex 6 weeks, I'll probably shoot 2-3 elk with my trusty 25-06 Encore. I have complete confidence in the round.

Lawdog · « **Reply #7 on:** November 05, 2005, 12:57:00 PM »

Quote from: mjbgalt

I have a Ruger No. 1 in .25-06 and I plan on using it for deer. If I were to want to use it on elk or caribou, would this be acceptible? The case is the same parent case as the .270 and the bullet weight is only 10 to 20 grains less than a .270.

If the .270 is considered more than enough for this, shouldn't the .25-06 be acceptible...for instance, like a .243 on a deer?

-Matt

I have been shooting the .25-06 since before Remington adopted it and gave it their name. Got three .25-06s in the safe as we speak(a Ruger M77V, a Ruger No. 1 and a Remington M700 BDL Varmint). I have taken 2 Rocky Mountain Elk with it using the 120 Nosler Partition. You just have to limit your range and the type of shot you can take(broadside only) and use nothing but premium bullets like the 115 - 120 gr. Partition, Barnes 115 gr. TSX, etc.. I have also taken a number of the smaller Tule Elk with the .25-06 with excellent results. But as far as using a .25-06 for Caribou, while it would do the job, I wouldnt chance it due to the very real possibility of having bears stop by while your field dressing your Caribou. It happens all the time. By the way it is also known to happen in states like Colorado to have a Grizzly stop by while field dressing an Elk. Something to keep in mind when hunting in Elk country. The .25-06 isnt suitable for bears in my opinion. Lawdog

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #8 on:** November 07, 2005, 01:59:09 PM »

tcman

My hat is off to anyone who has never had an animal get away. Havent lost one myself but did have a buddy shoot an elk we didnt find until the next morning. And even though overnight temps were around 0 degrees F, the meat had already started to spoil. The elk had wandered about 120 yards following a neck shot with a 7mm Mag. I had cautioned him about neck shots but his previous elk had dropped in its tracks to a neck shot and I guess he thought they would all react the same way. My elk have all fallen to a behind-the-shoulder shot. Point is, placement counts for a lot.

Hope your luck continues with the 100g Sierras, but I agree with Lawdog a heavier and better bullet is a better choice. You can play Russian Roulette and win a bunch of times before you lose. But keep playing and you WILL lose.

Just my opinion.

tcman · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2005, 06:49:00 PM »

Thanks...but I seriously doubt it....lose that is.

The 100 grainer consistantly turns the lungs into a mass of jelly. I don't try neck shots, texas heart shots or any other iffy shots.

Double lung brings 'em down every time, which is very simular to your statement on shooting behind the shoulder. I agree 100% on that.

longwalker · « **Reply #10 on:** November 08, 2005, 12:06:44 PM »

I just had a conversation about a guy who wanted to us a .357 magnum for deer. The point is the bullet in both cases must be able to penetrate to the point where fatal wounds are created. In Both this case and the 357 Mag. If you want to hunt with it no problem, as long as you recognize the limitations you put on your self.

If deep penetration and flat shooting were the only things that mattered, we would all hunt with 338 win mag or a 375H&H. We all must make accommodations for our own limitations and the limitations of our equipment. I like my M77mkII in 25-06 because I always know where the bullet will hit.

Saying all that, I would not expect a 100 or 120 grain bullet to break shoulders a continue to pass through the body of a moose or elk. Knowing what shots you can take and making sure you place the bullet there is just part of the challenge.

longwalker

Hildy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 26, 2005, 06:01:51 PM »

Some people may say that certain calibers aren't good enough for certain game. I agree to this a certain extent.

What happens to your bullet on impact? It expands...considering using a hunting bullet. Will a .257 cal and a .277 cal be much off in diameter when they expand? I highly doubt it. This leads me to....

Penetration. If you use the proper bullet in the 25-06 and hit your intended aim point, not much is going to survive. I have seen the 25-06 out penetrate 308's, 35 Rems, and even the 270 on several occasions. We shot 1/2" steel plate with those calibers plus more and the only 2 to totally pierce through the steel were the 25-06 and the 300 Win Mag. I figured this was all due to high velocity. High velocity...another nice feature of the quarter bore 06.

All in all, the 25-06 is nothing different than using a larger caliber on some game. It's velocity makes up for bullet weight.

As you can see, I am a firm believer that velocity kills on anything I hunt here in Pa. We arent talking about elephants here...thats where alla this energy is needed.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2005, 01:03:38 AM »

The caliber of the bullet, the velocity the size of the case, the length of the barrel or many of the other things we discuss here are not the most important factors in determing the success or failure of a cartridge.

The most important factor is the knowledge and the ability of the user. In proper hands, cartridges that are generally considered unsuitable are in fact deadly. And those that might represent over kill become wounders. There is a mountain of evidence to prove each selection wrong,,,and right!

I personally don't believe anything smaller than a 25 cal with min 115gr bullets is adequate for big game hunting yet I've killed many deer with much, much smaller cartridges. I've killed a couple with 243's. One shot kills yet conceder them them to small. I believe that using a cartridge thats reasonable for what ever shot we might CHOOSE to take, that is the prudent way to go.

So is a 25-06 adequate for elk and caribou? You surviving? sure. Sport hunting? maybe. Reasonable? no!

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2005, 03:08:39 AM »

Quote from: Don Fischer

The caliber of the bullet, the velocity the size of the case, the length of the barrel or many of the other things we discuss here are not the most important factors in determing the success or failure of a cartridge.

The most important factor is the knowledge and the ability of the user. In proper hands, cartridges that are generally considered unsuitable are in fact deadly. And those that might represent over kill become wounders. There is a mountain of evidence to prove each selection wrong,,,and right!

I personally don't believe anything smaller than a 25 cal with min 115gr bullets is adequate for big game hunting yet I've killed many deer with much, much smaller cartridges. I've killed a couple with 243's. One shot kills yet conceder them them to small. I believe that using a cartridge thats reasonable for what ever shot we might CHOOSE to take, that is the prudent way to go.

So is a 25-06 adequate for elk and caribou? You surviving? sure. Sport hunting? maybe. Reasonable? no!

What a wonderful, prosaic way of contradicting yourself. :-)

jro45 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2005, 04:38:00 AM »

My self I would use my 300 Rum for ELK. I suspect that some of those shots would be pretty long. Say 300 to 400 yds unless the hunt is in the woods.

nomosendero · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2005, 01:56:28 PM »

Don Fischer

According to your post you include Deer as Big Game. So do I. I find it
amazing that you would think a .257 Wea. firing a 100 Gr. TSX at 3,600
FPS would be too small for Deer.

Lawdog · « **Reply #16 on:** December 01, 2005, 02:02:48 PM »

Quote from: nomosendero

Don Fischer

According to your post you include Deer as Big Game. So do I. I find it
amazing that you would think a .257 Wea. firing a 100 Gr. TSX at 3,600
FPS would be too small for Deer.

You and I agree on this one. :wink: The .257 Weatherby shooting a 100 gr. TSX will handle any big game animal up to say 750 pounds. I would personally move up to the 115 gr. TSX for larger Elk, Black Bear and Moose but it will do the job nicely. Lawdog

Don Fischer · « **Reply #17 on:** December 04, 2005, 01:10:44 PM »

I don't know anything about those TSX bullets in any caliber. What it sounds like to me is a gimmick to make a 25 caliber an elk cartridge. If that super bullet is so fine, what are your range limitations? At some point the 257 Weatherby drops to velocities a 25-06 or even a 257 Roberts can match at some lesser range. Wouldn't that make those 25's suitable at those lesser range? Of course it would!

It sounds to me like people in love with one caliber or another are going to defend it no matter what. Hell, with the right bullet a 22 Hornet will do the job. Seems I left out the it's, and's and but's. Its a pretty much guaranteed deal that someone will now go out and get a 257 Weatherby for an elk cartridge. And if TSX bullets aren't availabe to them, they will just subsitute something else. Given the right circumstances, they'll succeed; still doesn't make 25 cal an elk cartridge, not any 25 cal.

I got it, why don't you guys write Weatherby and ask them if they recommend their 25 for elk? They might, but I'ed be shocked.

nomosendero · « **Reply #18 on:** December 04, 2005, 02:05:45 PM »

Don Fisher
I did not say a single word about Elk & a 25 cal. in my post & neither did
Lawdog, so what are you talking about?
I was responding to your post where you said anything smaller than a 115 gr. was too small for Big Game, but then you mentioned Deer
specifically, so I specifically referenced that. :?

Broken-arrow · « **Reply #19 on:** December 04, 2005, 03:22:22 PM »

:? This argument about 25-06 for elk, .243 for deer has been covered time and time again. In my experience most people who believe in the smaller calibers know their equipment and know for a fact they can put that little bullet in the right spot. SHOT PLACEMENT thats what matters.
If you can't hit what youre aiming at, a bigger gun won't fix it.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #20 on:** December 04, 2005, 04:23:24 PM »

Nomosendero,

Excuse my slip. I meant big game bigger than deer. The original post asked about elk and caribou. Otherwise, I know whats possible and that its also not always prudent. Would either you or Lawdog reccommend the 257 Weatherby with either TSX bullet mentioned over say a 30-06 with an appropiate bullet to someone that had to ask? Some cartridges are suitable but only for those that understand they're own limitations and the limitations of they're cartridge. In truth, these discussions about suitable cartridges are really dependent on a lot of things, least important bore size. For those that don't really understand all this could be quite confusing; for the rest, it's just a bunch of mental masterbation!

Lawdog · « **Reply #21 on:** December 05, 2005, 10:06:55 AM »

Don Fischer,

When I said the following;

Quote

I have taken 2 Rocky Mountain Elk with it using the 120 Nosler Partition. You just have to limit your range and the type of shot you can take(broadside only) and use nothing but premium bullets like the 115 - 120 gr. Partition, Barnes 115 gr. TSX, etc.. I have also taken a number of the smaller Tule Elk with the .25-06 with excellent results.

I stated you have to limit your range(200 +/- yards) but that the .25-06 would work using the proper bullet. The Tule Elk I routinely use my .25-06 for are the smallest of the Elk breeds. A large bull Tule Elk wont go much over 450 - 500 lbs. The .257 Weatherby Magnum will work nicely for non-dangerous game up to 750+/- lbs., again with well constructed bullets. Do I recommend the .257 Weatherby Magnum being used in Grizzly Bear country when hunting Elk, NO. When a bullet is smaller than the teeth on the bear it isnt suitable for stopping one. Not in my opinion. Lawdog

Don Fischer · « **Reply #22 on:** December 05, 2005, 01:45:34 PM »

Refering to my adove question, choice between a 257 Weatherby and say a 30-06:

Quote

Rodeo Rustler wrote:
All,

I am going to buy my first big game hunting rifle and have questions on the caliber. I know everyone has there own opinion, but what is a good "starter" caliber for deer and antelope and elk? I want to start with one rifle and eventually expand my collection. I was thinking 270 Rem, but is this enough for elk? My other choice would be a 7mm Rem Mag...but might be overkill for antelope. I know shot placement is a big part of the game...but whats the opinion of you all 270 REm or 7mm Rem MAg for antelope, deer, and elk?

Thanks!

RR

An excellent starter caliber would be any of these three;

.270 Winchester
.280 Remington
.30-06 Springfield

Talking nearly apples and oranges here but any of these make a great starting caliber for Deer, Antelope and Elk. If you're not going to be reloading then the .270 Winchester would be the way I would go. Lawdog

I rest my case!

pacecars · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2005, 04:09:00 PM »

If you did ask Weatherby you may be surprised, afterall the .257 was Roy's favorite and he used it on game up to Cape Buffalo according to several sources.

nomosendero · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2005, 04:25:20 PM »

No need repeating an obvious point.

killdeer · « **Reply #25 on:** January 22, 2006, 08:15:21 AM »

Don Fischer.....Great posts

northern hunter · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2006, 04:16:33 PM »

Hey guys,if you put the bullet were it belongs then that is all that matters,lungs,heart area equals dead animal.I have shot 3 moose with a 25 cal,257 weatherby-100gr Barnes xlc longest shot over 400 yards with a range finder,257 STW,110 Accubond,17 yards ha ha,and a 2506 AI 115gr.Nosler Partion around 150yards,I have shot 11 moose now and if you put the bullet were it bellongs then that is all that matters.
the 25 is a great cal. my uncle has a 25-303 epps improved single shot that he has used to shoot over 30 moose and 50 some deer with useing the 120 partition.
the 25 cal will do it if you do your part. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
shoot once and carry a sharp knife.
Frank