what gun should he by

[cattail]

Ok here is the deal, my son wants a centerfire for hunting fur. I have always carried a 22, 22mag or 223 on the trap line depnding on where I was trapping and such. Reloading may not be a very viable option we live in the bush fly in only and getting powder and primers here is expensive and a pain. Son wants something that will put the fox down and an occassional yote without putting huge holes in the fox he is open to any and all suggestions with a couple of  exception he doesn't want a 17 rem and isn't to hot on the damage he has seen created with my 223. Tell us what you think thanks in advance.

[Jerry Lester]

When I first saw this post, I started to reccomend the 22 Hornet hands down till I read it thoroughly. The Hornet can be extremely good for your sons purposes, but with the majority of factory loads it can also blow as big a hole in a fox as a 223.

The 22 LR or 22 magnum in my experience are very unreliable on coyotes. Yes, under perfect conditions you might drop one in it's tracks, but most of the time you'll be left looking for a coyote that you may or may not eventually find.

I'm gonna suggest a caliber that you didn't mention, that would likely fill all his needs, and be extremely cheap to shoot even if he's limited to factory ammo.

I think a 357 lever action would be just perfect. I use a Marlin 1894C for a lot of my predator hunting. Factory 357 magnums, especially from a rifle barrel are horrible about blowing a hide apart, but loaded with 38 specials, a good lever action becomes an honest to goodness 100+ varmint gun. It's quiet, plenty powerfull enough for a coyote at calling ranges, but still will usually leave only a small exit on a foxes thin hide with factory 38 special SPs. Trust me, I've shot enough 38s to tell you that it's a very good hunting caliber for everything from squirrels to big bobcats, or coyotes.

The 1894C will hold nine 357s, or ten 38s. They're light, tough, accurate, and if he likes(I don't), he can mount a good scope on it, which will easily let him hit a fox, or coyote in the head at 100 yards. I truly can say, if I was limited to only one gun for all my hunting, I'd pick my 357 rifle. It'll take squirrels(down loaded 38 special SPs) with very little meat damage, or take deer sized game cleanly at 100+ yards with full house 158g SP 357 magnums.

Your son could shoot bulk 38 special ammo like you see advertized in "Cheaper than Dirt" magazines almost as cheap as good 22 LR ammo. Also, if he did start loading, he could load 38s extremely cheap, and get as many as 1750 rounds out of a single pound of Unique.

I absolutely love my 357 rifle, and I'm fairly certain that if he tries one out for hunting, He'll fall in love with it too.

[trotterlg]

If a .223 is too much gun, and he doesn't reload or want a 17 rem, you may be SOL.   Larry

[Encore_Shooter]

204 Ruger shooting 32gr.

[cattail]

Encore, just curious I have been lead to belive that the 204 is going to pretty hard on fox hides? Can you tell me your experinces shooting fox with one? He is really interestead in a 204 but for his needs he was under the impression that it may be alot more gun then he needs he will have the opportunity to kill 20 red fox or more to every 1 yote that he sees
Trotterlg it isn't about the 223 being to much gun it is about factory ammo blowing them up about 50% of the time that and the $50 hazmat charge to get a can of powder out here. The 17 remington is one he considered for a long time but we also have windy conditions a good share of the time and he is worried about wind drift.  
357 rifle interesting thought thats for sure hummmmm
Anyone else got any thoughts on this question? What about the 221 fireball? this a calibure I know virtually nothing about

[PA-Joe]

22 hornet, 22 bee, 17 rem, 204, 223, 22-250, 220 swift. Looks like the best for you is going to be the 223. You can get cheap surplus ammo and it can be reloaded (but you already said that's not an option).

Key with the 223 is ammo selection. A hollow point is going to do a lot of damage. A FMJ may ricochet!

Check out www.jamescalhoon.com He has gropher loads for the 223. Can down load it from 223 to 22 hornet to 22 mag to 22 LR.

[Lawdog]

Ok here is the deal, my son wants a centerfire for hunting fur. I have always carried a 22, 22mag or 223 on the trap line depnding on where I was trapping and such. Reloading may not be a very viable option we live in the bush fly in only and getting powder and primers here is expensive and a pain. Son wants something that will put the fox down and an occassional yote without putting huge holes in the fox he is open to any and all suggestions with a couple of  exception he doesn't want a 17 rem and isn't to hot on the damage he has seen created with my 223. Tell us what you think thanks in advance.

Go with the .22 Hornet and the Winchester 45 gr. Super-X Soft Point load.  Doesn't blow up on Fox and will still take out a Coyote out to 175(+/-) yards.  A more pelt friendly cartridge you never find then the .22 Hornet.  Mian thing is to stay away from hollow point bullets and any bullet under 45 gr.  I personally reload and my favorite bullet is the 50 & 55 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip for called in Coyotes.  You won't go wrong with the .22 Hornet.  Lawdog
 

[trotterlg]

The 17 cal wind drift is a mith.  If you look at the drift of a 20gr 17 cal doing 4,400 fps and a 55gr .224 doing 3,400 fps you will find a drift in a 10mph wind of 19 inches at 200 yards with the .224 and 13 inches for the .17.  Just don't believe every thing you read on the web.  Larry

[varmit_master]

I would try the 223 because ammo is so cheap. VM

[Lawdog]

I would try the 223 because ammo is so cheap. VM

Very true but not all of that cheap ammo is suitable for taking varmints especially when one is saving hides.  Military ammo leaves small holes except when they tumble then hides get ruined.  If they don't tumble then you loose many critters because they run off.  And as for reloading remember the guy said,

Reloading may not be a very viable option we live in the bush fly in only and getting powder and primers here is expensive and a pain.

so downloading isn't an option.  Most of the factory varmint loads do way too much damage to pelts thus they are not a viable option either.  This is why I discounted all the higher velocity .22 centerfires.  They only work if you reload.  Lawdog
 

[buzztail]

I'm going to throw my two cents in here and say that the 32.gr .204s from my 14" contender are pretty easy on pelts. I do load for the 204, but factory shoots sub MOA for me, and It can be had new for less than twelve bucks a box.
I agree that cheap 223 ball ammo should not be used for anything but plinking.

[Gregory]

The 17 cal wind drift is a mith.  If you look at the drift of a 20gr 17 cal doing 4,400 fps and a 55gr .224 doing 3,400 fps you will find a drift in a 10mph wind of 19 inches at 200 yards with the .224 and 13 inches for the .17.  Just don't believe every thing you read on the web.  Larry

 
Larry
I ran these numbers through my load from a disk using your MV numbers and BC values for Remington bullets.
 
Caliber; Bullet wgt;   BC;   MV;   WD 200;   WD 300;   WD 400;
    17;        25;             0.151;     4400;            5.5;      13.8;      27.4;
    22;      55;             0.197;     3400;            5.9;      14.4;      28.1;
 
Not enough difference there to worry about.

[trotterlg]

Gregory:  Exactly my point, he says the .223 is too big and blows up the pelts, and the 17 rem has too much wind drift.  The 17 remington is superior in wind drift to a .223 at all ranges up to at least 300 yards.  Larry

[varmit_master]

When i was talking about cheap ammo. I  wasnt talking about FMJ stuff. You can get some factory ammo in a 55gr sp ammo at a good price.VM

[cattail]

we are both paying attetntion to what you all are saying and apperciate it I haven't talked to him this weekend but I am sure he is rethinking the 17 rem deal. I have also heard that  17 rem factory ammo is hard on fox due any of you know the full truth Im asking about factory ammo on this. As far as the 223 blowing things up after almost 20 years of shooting one with various factory ammo I can say from personal experince that even the soft points and hollow points can leave the insides of a red fox laying all over the tundra. For me it isn't a huge issue as my wife sews all the fur I harvest. For my son who wants to sell the hides it is.
Buzztail what do you consider easy on pelts wholes the size of a 50cent piece or larger?

[trotterlg]

If a 17 rem does too much damage the only alternative is to go slower, so a 17HMR may do, as would sneaking up and sticking the fox with an ice pick.  Larry

[Lawdog]

If a 17 rem does too much damage the only alternative is to go slower, so a 17HMR may do, as would sneaking up and sticking the fox with an ice pick.  Larry

Even using the heavier 20 gr. bullets the .17 HMR has proved not to be suitable for Coyote size varmints.  Sure it has killed a some but many a pelt hunter has tried them on called in Coyotes and the results were miserable.  Lawdog
 

[aulrich]

17 rem factory ammo is hard on fox

I think if you do a search on www.coyotegods.com (those guys live and breath 17) you'll find that the factory 17 is not well thought of for any fur.  To get the most out of the 17 you'll likly have to reload.

Is it just me or is there a real lack of fur loads for any caliber?

[Lawdog]

aulrich,

s it just me or is there a real lack of fur loads for any caliber?

No it isn't just you.  You'r right about there not being a lot of suitable factory "fur" loads for hunters out there.  Most factory loads are for the varmint hunters that don't keep furs.  I never saw why they didn't.  When a prime Coyote pelt brings in $50.00 on the average, it doesn't take long to add up.  Lawdog