44 magnum or 45-70?

[limerock]

Which caliber would you guys recommend for whitetail hunting?  I have heard that the 45-70 is pretty rough on the shoulder, but seems to have better ballistics than the .44.  I am looking for something that would be accurate to 150yds.  Thanks for all replys.  BTW, great website you have here.

[bladerunner]

anything over 100 yards,you'd be MUCH better off with the 45-70,any particular reason you're limiting yourself to these 2 calibers?
I personaly reccomend the 7MM-08,.270 or 25-06

[bladerunner]

sorry,didn't notice this was your first post,WELCOME   ,the experts will be along shortly

[quickdtoo]

Welcome to the forum, hairtrigger25!!  I think the 44mag would be fine out to 100yds or so, but the 45-70 can have a MPBR of well over 200yds if you pick the right load, yet it can be downloaded to 44mag ballistics real easy.  Best of both worlds plus you have the option of a lot of big game rifle bullets instead of using pistol bullets.  Below is a 2003 list of factory ammo for the 45-70....

$41.54 250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
$??.?? 300g @ 1810fps, 2182fpe (Remington @ Remington web site)
$20.39 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Winchester JHP, Natchez)
$20.60 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Federal, Natchez)
$29.81 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Winchester Partition Gold, Natchez)
$22.84 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, HP (Conley)
$44.66 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
$32.50 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Nosler Partition (Protected Point) (Conley)
$41.54 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
$25.08 350g @ 1970fps, 3017fpe, Hornady JFP (Conley)
$34.89 350g @ 1800fps, 2519fpe, BCSP (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$19.47 350g @ 2025fps, 3188fpe, PMC @CheaperThanDirt.com)
$39.99 350g @ 2150fps, 3593fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$24.99 400g @ 1250fps, 1388fpe (Black Hills @ Cabelas)
$44.66 400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
$54.46 400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Swift A-Frame Flat Point (Conley)
$12.99 405g @ 1350fps, 1639fpe (PMC @ Cabelas)
$18.99 405g @ 1100fps, 1088fpe (Ultramax @ Cabelas)
$22.50 405g @ 1325fps, 1579fpe, RNFP (Conley)
$18.99 405g @ 1330fps, 1590fpe (Remington @ Cabelas)
$24.50 405g @ (Winchester @ Cascade Ammunition web site)
$35.57 405g @ 1700fps, 2600fpe, FPPE (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$22.99 405g @ 1900fps, 3247fpe, JSP (Conley)
$39.99 405g @ 2000fps, 3597fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$41.99 405g @ (Obsolete Ammunition @ Cabelas)
$50.00 420g @ 1850fps, 3200fpe (Garrett)
$39.99 430g @ 1925fps, 3537fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$34.50 460g @ 1650fps, 2780fpe, HC (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$41.99 500g @ (Obsolete Ammunition @ Cabelas)
$52.99 500g @ 1625fps, 2931fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$50.00 540g @ 1550fps, 2880fpe (Garrett)
$180.00 500g @ 1530fps, 2600fpe (Speer AGS Tungsten, Garrett)

[JPH45]

Interesting question. Do you handload? A lot could depend on this....

The 44 is 150 yard capable anydya, but drops like a rock after 125, will leave you with a 6" hold over. Best bullets will weigh 270 grians or so, the Speer Gold Dot is perfect as this world goes. The 300's will give up a tad of velocity, have a slightly higher trajectory, about the same energy. The 240's smoke 'em both out to 100, but loose their steam at 125, those are 115 yard loads, and beat on ya harder than the 270's/300's, which may not make sense, but true never the less.

The 45-70 has practically the same trajectory but extended to 150 and 200 yards over the 100/150 of the 44. Flattening the 45-70 that much requires 300 grain bullets at speeds of 1800+, 400 at the same speed, but I doubt you would find anything pleasant at all about 400's at that velocity from a Handi. Think 3 1/2" 12 guage slug recoil.....

I'm old enough now that I don't like being beat on, I cast and handload, don't remember the last factory loads I bought, (over 2 1/2 years ago) and use the 38-55. I use the Lyman 379449 and push it at 1900 fps. I can easily shoot 20 rounds from the bench, don't want more than that, but I can't even begin to do that with the 45-70. Zeroed at 100, the load is 6" low at 150, about the same as the 45-70 or the 44 Mag.

If I didn't handload I'd take the 44, lot's of good loads available. If I wanted to prove my machisimo, I'd take the 45-70. The Remington 400 grain bullet at 1300 fps replicates the original loading of the 45-70 and will kill any deer you hit cleanly with it out to 150 yards and is a relatively mild recoiling load.

The real question to answer is just how recoil shy are you. Others will chime in and offer ways to tame the recoil, my solution was to get something else.

[limerock]

I picked these two because of the MS law, .38 or larger.  I will be using this during the primative weapon season only.  I would consider any caliber that would be the best for deer hunting and legal.  From the responses I'm getting the 45-70 is rough on the shoulder.  I have all of the equipment to handload, but am unexperienced.  I just want to spend my money on the best barrel for my purpose.

[quickdtoo]

A good recoil pad is in order for either caliber, 300gr loads at the same  velocity out of either is going to be so close, you won't know which was which. The 44mag has the advantage of lighter bullets for the most part, although 250gr bullets are available for the 45-70. As for the 3½" 12ga slug loads, they're gonna have approx 50lb recoil, about double that of a 400gr load at 1800 fps. JPH is exaggerating again to prove his point!! A factory loaded winchester 300gr at about 1880fps is a bit stout from the bench, but from field positions, you'd never know it went off when shooting at game. At around 23 lbs recoil it's just a bit more than a 30-06 with 180gr loads. For taming the bench shooting, I'd opt for lead shot poured in the stock bolt hole, or a lead filled pipe stuck in there, it makes the gun weigh close to 10 lbs and makes recoil not an issue, even for recoil shy weanies. :eek: If your shooting is limited to 100yds or less, the 44mag will fill that bill with less recoil, but if you want to have a caliber that is more versatile, the 45-70 is the caliber of choice. Check out the ballistics comparison below...44mag barrel length is 20", 45-70 is 24"...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v386/quickdtoo/ScreenHunter_013.jpg">

[JPH45]

I picked these two because of the MS law, .38 or larger.  I will be using this during the primative weapon season only.  I would consider any caliber that would be the best for deer hunting and legal.  From the responses I'm getting the 45-70 is rough on the shoulder.  I have all of the equipment to handload, but am unexperienced.  I just want to spend my money on the best barrel for my purpose.

That law leaves out the 44 Mag, the cartridge must have been a blackpowder round. The only two Handi's that will qualify are the 45-70 and the 38-55

Quick.... Exaggerate.....Who Me? :roll: Once upon a time I had a Winchester 12 guage Black Shadow and tried a magazine of 3" slugs....Three was enough, I was sittin' on my butt and was able to roll with the recoil, but still was more than I want. And yes I tried some 400 grainers at 1800 fps from my 45-70 Handi, don't like 'em got rid of the barrel, won't have another 45 anything rifle length. Never met a deer needed that much killin'. I shot a spike last year with a 400 grain bullet at 1270 fps. The 44 was more impressive so far as I'm concerned. In past I've shot deer with the Winchester 300 grain 1800 fps load. It hits 'em hard. Hit's are obvious and unmistakable. Would I have a 45-70 so I could hunt with the load? No. But then I've fallen off the 45-70 wagon. A bit prejudiced I guess, or a bit beat up, depends on how you look at it. I've not posted on a 45-70 thread in a long while, prolly be a long time before I do again. Just needed to wave the "There Are Other Valid Choices" flag  :wink:

[quickdtoo]

Flag waving is allowed!!!  :wink:

[Ed in AL]

This was taken from the MS Game site. It does not say that Handis are required to shoot blackpowder, or be in an original blackpowder cartridge. Based on that, the 44 and 500 would both be fine.

"Primitive firearms" for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double barreled muzzle-loading rifles of at least .38 caliber; single shot, breech loading, cartridge rifles (.38 caliber or larger) of a kind and type manufactured prior to 1900, and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of those type rifles; and single or double-barreled muzzle-loading, shotguns with single ball or slug. All muzzle-loading Primitive Firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or #209 shotgun primers or flintlock ignition. Breech loading single shot rifles must have exposed hammers and use metallic cartridges. Cartridges may be loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. Scopes of any magnification are allowed on primitive weapons. Sidearms are not allowed during primitive weapon season.

[rock-steady]

Thanks Ed in AL for clearing up that bit of misinformation.

[Ranger J]

I’m another one of those old dudes that don’t like to be beat up by my guns anymore.  As I was out of #2 shot I found that the stock bolt hole will hold exactly eight patched 75-caliber  1 oz. musket balls.  If you opt for the .44 you may be faced with the 44-accuracy problem at least some of our Handis have.  It took some fine-tuning with oversize cast bullets to get my .44 to shoot right.  Now it is as accurate as any rifle I own.  My 45/70 came out of the box shooting ragged holes at fifty yards.  Of course being a recoil shy weenie I only shoot 300g bullets at about 1500 fps which is within the capability of the .44.  All things considered as much as I enjoy the 45/70 it is the .44 that will go to the deer woods with me this weekend.
RJ

[ONE HOLE 4570]

I would say 45/70 just beacause if they change the rules down the road & you need a BP cartridge you got it but as the terms are now either will do with the 44 being the lesser beating of the 2. My 44 also has an oversized bore (have not worked on a cast load yet project for after deer season) & the 45/70 was perfect right out of the box as well. Just some food for thought

[Mac11700]

Go with the 45-70...you can buy loads as light as you want...or as heavy as you want.The 45-70 will kick the snot out of you in a super light gun...so...put some lead in the stock...a good recoil pad...and a neopreane shell holder on it for a cheek piece and it will take all the hurt out of it and give you a 200 yard gun fully capable of taking on anything...I shoot a 2400 fps 300 grain Nosler Partition handload from mine...it puts Whitetails down quickly and cleanly...it is a MOA shooter and what more could you ask of a Big Bore rifle...

Mac

[RemingtonMagnum]

HI Folks

Welcome aboard you will love the sight!

quickdtoo what is the URL to the Remington Ballistic sight?

Don Jackson Remington Magnum

[quickdtoo]

Don, with a handle like yours, you shoulda known it by heart!!!  :wink:

http://www.remington.com/

They're redoing the web site, it was listed as Ballistics in the header.

[RemingtonMagnum]

Thanks for the help. I had it on my favorite site on my other PC. The Modem went south while I was in the hospital. I guess it had a Heart Attack also.

The PC is so slow that I take naps while it searches the web. I think of the man who picked up his PC and threw it out the window. truly tires one's patience.

I chose my handle as a sardonic sarcastic statement. After paying much for a Remington 700 375 UM I discovered the Handi and MillSurp firearms. I could buy several Handi rifles with the price of the 375 and the 6x24x50 LEUPOLD scope.

With Varalux glasses I can even see open sights again.

Thanks Don Jackson Remington Magnum

[Cottonwood]

Never had a 45-70 do this 44 mag blow up

I would stay with the 45-70  :eek:

[mr.frosty]

hey quick, midwayusa has the remingtom 300 gr at about 20$ a box
just thought i let ya know :grin:

[quickdtoo]

hey quick, midwayusa has the remingtom 300 gr at about 20$ a box
just thought i let ya know :grin:

I think the reason that list has the for the rem is it varies in price considerably, it's as low as $18 a box up to $23 locally. That's why I stated...

Below is a 2003 list of factory ammo for the 45-70....

Some of it has changed in price, is not available anymore, and there are a bunch of new loads out, too....that probably cost more!!

[mr.frosty]

oh ok :grin:  
anywho i wonder how much the 45/70 is gonna be from hornady?

[quickdtoo]

Well, the .30-30 ammo is about $14 and the .35 Rem is $15.55, I figure the .45-70 Hornady should be around $20-$23 a box.

[limerock]

Thanks for all the replies.  I'm leaning towards the 45-70.  How does the recoil compare to the .300WSM?  That is my most used deer rifle.

[bighoof]

I picked these two because of the MS law, .38 or larger.  I will be using this during the primative weapon season only.  I would consider any caliber that would be the best for deer hunting and legal.  From the responses I'm getting the 45-70 is rough on the shoulder.  I have all of the equipment to handload, but am unexperienced.  I just want to spend my money on the best barrel for my purpose.

Hairtrigger,

I bought a Handi couple of weeks ago, also bought a small Limsaver recoil pad and ground it down some. I'm shooting 300gr Remington factory rounds. They are a breeze to shoot with the new recoil pad on there.

Will be using it too for primitive weapon season here in MS

[bighoof]

The Remington 300 JHP 45/70 are going for a about 23.00 at walmart here in central MS. That's all I've seen in walmart.

[limerock]

Hairtrigger,

I bought a couple of weeks ago, also bought a small Limsaver recoil pad and ground it down some. I'm shooting 300gr Remington factory rounds. They are a breeze to shoot with the new recoil pad on there.[/quote]

Thanks, I've pretty much made up my mind on the 45-70.  What part of MS do you hunt?

[mr.frosty]

Thanks for all the replies.  I'm leaning towards the 45-70.  How does the recoil compare to the .300WSM?  That is my most used deer rifle.

I have both and I would say there about equal.
Now the 45/70 is a Marlin 1895 and the 300WSM is a Winchester
synthetic stock and to me there about the same in recoil.

[safetysheriff]

this is where you'll probably find the tip-top or near tip-top loads in both the .44 mag and the .45-70.    they really are both more than enough for anything in the lower 48 states; and the .44 mag' has actually taken the biggest of them on this planet (land-dwellers, that is).    

so why do we debate this, really?    there are probably more bullets available to choose from with the .44, and it is probably more versatile in what it can do load-wise in the lower-48 states (from mice to moose).   However, the .45-70 is a lot more cartridge than the .44 mag' in both weight that it will deliver and velocities it can achieve out of most available rifles.    the .45-70 is definitely the bigger hammer between the two.    But, J.D. Jones will tell you that his 320 gr' hardcast, weight-forward design would penetrate the skull on an elephant, and Larry Kelly's gunsmith killed a record-book moose in Alaska with a 4" or 5" smith and wesson (they co-authored the book this is in).

www.garrettcartridges.com   will show you how a properly-loaded .44 mag' will penetrate plenty of elk, bear, or moose meat and bones.    

good luck with your decision,

ss'

[FirstFreedom]

Never had a 45-70 do this

It might if you filled the case with titegroup.   :eek:    :shock:

[dpastor]

I do not know what the issue is.  All you have to do is get two barrels.  That won't break the bank.  The 45-70 with 300gr jacketed hp at 1800 will loosen your fillings, but 410gr wheelweight and 34 gr reloader 7 (plus 1/2 gr dacron filler) is more than enough and not two stout.  Shoots great too. My .44 mag doesn't like 240 gr and full power loads.  Drop a few grains and use a 200 gr bullet to get under 2 inches at 100 yards with open sights.

One word of warning.  They returned my new .223 barrel with only an extractor - NO EJECTOR.  They claim that this is the wave of the future.  Now I have to reach under the scope and over the hammer with two finger nails to get the case out.  Bad News.

Dave