Author Topic: 22-243 ?  (Read 2014 times)

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Offline Tug Hill Drifter

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22-243 ?
« on: November 07, 2005, 03:31:18 PM »
I am considering rechambering a 22 caliber Handi to 22-243.  I'd like an 8 or 9 rifling twist.  Are any of the standard 22 centerfire Handis using an 8 or 9" twist?   Thanks for your time.
THD

Offline bladerunner

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22-243 ?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 03:41:11 PM »
Quote

What are the rates of twist?
Duce
posted December 28, 2003 07:09 AM

.17 HMR 1 in 9"
.22 LR 1 in 16"
.22 WMRF 1 in 16"
.22 Hornet 1 n 12"
.223 1 in 12"
.25/06 1 in 10"
.243 1 in 10"
.270 1 in 10"
.280 1 in 10"
.308 1 in 10"
.357 Mag 1 in 18 3/4"
.357 Maxi 1 in 18 3/4"
.35 Whelen 1 in 16"
7mm-08 1 in 10"
7.62x39 1 in 9¾"
7x57 1 in 10"
7x64 1 in 10"
30/30 1 in 10"
30/06 1 in 10"
.38/55 1 in 18"
.44 Mag 1 in 38"
.444 Marlin 1 in 38"
.45/70 1 in 20"
.45 Colt/410 1 in 16"
.500 S&W 1 in ??



20 ga. 1 in 28"
12 ga. 1 in 35"

 


it can be found in the stickys at the top of the page
hope that helps
Good shot placement + well constructed bullet = DEAD
 
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Offline quickdtoo

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22-243 ?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2005, 03:48:52 PM »
As you can see, the answer is no. The .22-250 is 1:14" and the .223 and .22 Hornet are 1:12". Of course you could have a 17hmr bull barrel rebored and rechambered if ya just had to do it in a Handi/Ultra. $300 at Oregunsmithing by Wayne York.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eoregunsmithing/index.html
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: 22-243 ?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2005, 07:19:45 PM »
Quote from: Tug Hill Drifter
I am considering rechambering a 22 caliber Handi to 22-243.  I'd like an 8 or 9 rifling twist.  Are any of the standard 22 centerfire Handis using an 8 or 9" twist?   Thanks for your time.
THD


I'll quote what is in my Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions...

" Make from 22-250 Remington brass.Fireform in chamber.This wildcat was developed in the pre-22-250 days.It is nothing more than a 22-250 with a 30 degree shoulder.It offers no advantage over the 22-250..."

That being said...if you just got to have it...give Wayne a call at Oregunsmithing like Quick said to do...

Good Luck :D

Mac
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Offline mitchell

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22-243 ?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2005, 01:38:26 AM »
or you could just find one of those bad shooting 204's and use it for the rechamber.

oh darn it i forgot , there are no bad shooting 204's . never mind. :D
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline Lone Star

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Re: 22-243 ?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2005, 07:07:41 AM »
Quote
"Make from 22-250 Remington brass.  Fireform in chamber.  This wildcat was developed in the pre-22-250 days.  It is nothing more than a 22-250 with a 30 degree shoulder.It offers no advantage over the 22-250..."
This is simply incorrect.  The .22-243 (Middlestead) is based upon the .243 case - if formed from the .22-250 it would be far too short, and it would fail to headspace correctly in a .22-243 chamber.  This cartridge has significant velocity advantages over the .22-250.  Go here for the true story:

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w22243m.html

.

Offline Fred M

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22-243 ?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2005, 07:56:01 AM »
Lone Star you are absolutely right.

Mitchell.
204 to 224 actually only to 218, with two drillings and one reaming would make the operation nip and tuck? You only talk about 14 thou total or 7 thou for three operations. That amounts to only 1.15 Thou cut. He would have to make special tools to do it? They like a little more meat than that to work with. Besides 20 cal tools are not in every tool box.

There has been a lot of trouble making 20 cal barrels and a lot of ruined blanks and broken drilles and reamers. But it seams now they have licked the waste somewhat.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: 22-243 ?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2005, 08:04:39 AM »
Quote from: Lone Star
Quote
"Make from 22-250 Remington brass.  Fireform in chamber.  This wildcat was developed in the pre-22-250 days.  It is nothing more than a 22-250 with a 30 degree shoulder.It offers no advantage over the 22-250..."
This is simply incorrect.  The .22-243 (Middlestead) is based upon the .243 case - if formed from the .22-250 it would be far too short, and it would fail to headspace correctly in a .22-243 chamber.  This cartridge has significant velocity advantages over the .22-250.  Go here for the true story:

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w22243m.html

.


Well...the data is from the Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions by John J Donnelly & Bryce Townsley page 103......the historical data was provided by P.Middlestead in 1984 to J Donnelly for his original book in 1987......and the reload data was from Handloader #21 page 38...now...if you want to argue that this is in correct...so be it...but since the data came from Middlestead...the question is why it would be published as such...I looked in my current 10th edition of the Cartridges of the world for this cartridge...since it was the Reloading bench  resouce for it's data....it's not listed...What publication is it listed in?

Mac
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Offline warf73

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22-243 ?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2005, 08:31:03 AM »
Lone Star is correct in what he is saying about the 22-243.

Mac11700 Not sure what your book is saying and why?

ALL wildcat cartridges that I've read about the second number represents the parent case example: 22-284, 6mm-284, 6.5mm-284, 7mm-08, 25-06, 338-06 and so on.
So what I'm getting at is WHY would the 22-243 be based on a 22-250 case? The catridge with 30degree shoulder sounds like AI to me.

And yes the 22-243 was created to shoot heavy bullets at extremely fast velocities. With the same bullet weights as the 22-250 and 220swift the 22-243 will beat them in fps well beyond 200fps.

Warf
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Offline Fred M

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22-243 ?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2005, 09:31:26 AM »
Mac
You don't need to look in no book to see the difference between a 22-250 and a 243 case the later .133 longer than the other. The volume of the 243 case is considerable larger. You are excused since you are not a wildcatter.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Tug Hill Drifter

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22-243 ?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2005, 01:00:28 PM »
Thanks for the info.  My understanding of the 22-243 was that it would outpace the 220 swift by a couple hundred feet per second. Was looking for the faster twist for stabilizing heavier bullets.  Thanks again to all.
THD

Offline FirstFreedom

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22-243 ?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2005, 02:29:43 PM »
Well, I believe that it's the case that the faster a bullet goes, the less twist rate that is needed to stabilize the same weight bullet (relative to the same bullet going slower).  Therefore, if you did this, the 1 in 12 or 14 of the Handi would probably work fine, if and only if you stick with the lighter bullets.  I.e.  it will work just as well if not better than a .223 handi with the same bullets, since they're going faster.  Then again, I'm no expert.

Having said that, the .220 swift is barrel burner enough - is that not enough for ya?   :P

Also, GBO barrel twist sticky for handis notwithstanding, I've heard from another seemingly reliable source that the twists rates vary widely fo .223 rem, down to 1 in 9 for some more recent handis, and the ONLY way to find out for sure is to call NEF and give them your serial number - can anyone confirm or contradict this?  Thanks.

Offline quickdtoo

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22-243 ?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2005, 03:12:49 PM »
The ONLY way to find out for sure what your rifle's twist rate is to check it yourself with a tight patch and jag on the end of a cleaning rod. I think a bronze brush would work too, but it's got to be reversed first before you start it back out. Run it down the bore close to the opposite end, mark the rod near the muzzle or breech depending on which end you're working from, with a piece of tape wrapped around it with the ends stuck together to form a little flag. Withdraw the rod from the bore until the rod turns one complete rotation, the rod must be allowed to turn freely. Measure from the muzzle/breech to the tape, thats the rate of twist. Just for those that wanta do it to a muzzleloader or a handgun, use a half turn or even a quarter turn depending on the twist and multiply accordingly.
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline mitchell

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22-243 ?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2005, 03:59:52 PM »
Quote from: Fred M
Lone Star you are absolutely right.

Mitchell.
204 to 224 actually only to 218, with two drillings and one reaming would make the operation nip and tuck? You only talk about 14 thou total or 7 thou for three operations. That amounts to only 1.15 Thou cut. He would have to make special tools to do it? They like a little more meat than that to work with. Besides 20 cal tools are not in every tool box.

There has been a lot of trouble making 20 cal barrels and a lot of ruined blanks and broken drilles and reamers. But it seams now they have licked the waste somewhat.



i was more just joking about not finding a bad shooting 204 and the post was all meant in jest. reboring rifle is not my cup of tea.
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline Fred M

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22-243 ?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2005, 04:33:44 PM »
The way Tim explains taking a twist measure is an excepted method and it works well..

There are four criterias that determines the rate of twist, the most important is the length of the bullet. The longer the bullet the more twist you need.

Next is the MV of the bullet which will give the bullet rotational stability. More speed  will require less twist but not as much as you might think..

The length of the bullet is a matter of its composition, its specific gravity, its ogive, either tangent or secant. A secant ogive is generally longer and usually has a boat tail. In general a longer bullet will have its center of gravity and the center of presure further apart than a shorter bullet this alone will affect the rotational stability and need to be taken into consideration when calculating the proper twist.

Over-stabilization will have a degenerate influence on accuracy at long range. So, too much twist is not too good either it will make a bullet fly with its nose up rather then follow the trajectory hence it looses airo dynamic efficiency.

There are some good programs on the net for calculating twist. The Greenhill formula is not one of them.

The Berger bullet catalog lists all their bullets with recommended twists, taking into consideration prevailing velocities that these bullets will be shot at and is an excelent guide.

Some of the new bullets with multy density metals , like40% copper, 55% lead and  alloy or plastic tips can get very long and need lots of speed or a fast twits. The metal distribution can have detrimental effects on bullet stability.

For a hunting bullet a flat base tangent ogive IMHO is best suited  for most applications and are less twist senitive out to sensible ranges of abot 350
yrds.

Mitchell, yes I did understand what you meant. I put my post in just as food for thought. It is possible it could be done. Once you barrel is shot out you can have it rebored but a new Handi barrel is more cost efective.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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22-243 ?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2005, 06:16:41 PM »
Quote
So what I'm getting at is WHY would the 22-243 be based on a 22-250 case? The catridge with 30degree shoulder sounds like AI to me.


First of all...from the book...is that the cases can be formed from 22-250 cases...and .193 isn't that big of stretch from the 243 cases since your going to be fireforming them anyway.....
Why they have it as such in the book..I'm not sure...but I qouted straight from it.The reloaders Nest still doesn't state which Cartridge of the World volume it derived the information on...The Handloaders Manual does...and I haven't seen anything here which supports anything otherwise...so...what are the sources of the dimensions you guys are resolved with??????...Please...something concrete...not just a little blurb from AR's site...or from any other web based forum...I would truely like to see this...

Fred your right...I'm not a died in the wool wildcatter...but I'm not stupid either...tell me something...if the cases were made from a 22-250 case...instead of a 243 case...whats the big deal...Which would be the easiest to achieve...having to turn necks or possible neck ream on the 243 cases...of which I can remember just how much you didn't like very much not too awfull long ago...or from a case which is already at the correct diameter?

Mac
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Offline Lone Star

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22-243 ?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2005, 07:38:25 PM »
Quote
if the cases were made from a 22-250 case...instead of a 243 case...whats the big deal...
The big deal is that the finished case would have the shoulder in the wrong place and would have dangerous headspace -  the finsihed case would not fit the chamber, it would fall forward away from the firing pin.  Also, the finished case would be more than 0.193" short; when fireforming a case, the case usually shortens after firing.  That leaves an awfully short neck on the .22-243 case.  These two facts alone would tell the wildcatter that the use of a .22-250 case is not at all practical.  As for turning the necks - a wildcat chamber and dies can be configured so that no neck turning of reformed brass is necessary.  This is one of the fun things about wildcats - they don't have to fit the normal dimensions of case design.

The photo in the middle of this page shows the .22-243 next to a .22-250 - it is clear why the former cannot be formed from the latter.
http://us.geocities.com/sixfive284mauser/index.html

I certainly don't know why the misprint is in the book the poster referenced, but it is clearly wrong.  This is not a popular wildcat and there is not that much Internet data on it.  There is, however, a reference on page 164 of the 9th Edition of COTW.

Offline Fred M

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22-243 ?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2005, 07:43:54 PM »
Mac
The big deal is you don't stretch cases on purpose unless there is a need too. The 22-250 would be stretched in two directions, at the shoulder and in length and would likely end up short and would  have to be fire formed with bullets jammed into the lands.

But the biggest deal is when you stretch a case that much you remove 90% of its case life on the first firing with a fast case head seperation to follow. Try some Gibbs and find out how many will seperate during fire forming. Blowing bottom metal of your rifle is no fun..

The 243 case body is already improved at .454 at the shoulder like in all 06 based Ackley Imps. nothing to stretch there.

The shoulder and body junction stays the same nothing to stretch there.
 
The neck and shoulder junction gets pushed down with the die and the shoulder angle is increased from 20 to 30 deg at the same time the neck is lengthened to .300 and the neck extrusion lengthens the case some and the trim length is the same as the 243 at 2.045. Depending on the reamer not even trimming is required

There is practically no case volume change, only with use of other 243 brands. The 22-243 Midlestead is one hell of a wild cat cartridge.

This has to be one of the easiest wild cats ever to make. you don't even have to fire form it. Push the shoulder down reduce the neck outside neck ream and shoot it.

 Same a we did with the 250 Savage case to turn it into the 22 Varminter( now called the 22-250) you find it on my web page as my first wild cat in 1958, one operation and then go hunting.

Now why would anybody  want to use a 22-250 case to make it into a 22-243 ? You have to be totally out of your tree. But stranger things have been done. But then I could be missing somethings.

There is another fine wild cat cartridge by Duane Spooner It is called  the  257DGR. He does the exactly same thing with a 260Rem Case. He hygraded the idea from the Midlestead. Nevertheless an outstanding 25 cal. perhaps one of the best 25's

The 22-243 is IMO not suitable for a Handy, like most High Density hot shots it likes to throttle at 63K plus and if you need to choke it down you may as well use a 223 or 22-250

The 22-243 is a serious Loudenboomer for expert marksmen.
If there is any above that is not understandable, then I am at loss.

By the way a 30 deg shoulder angle is not an AI angle The Ackley shoulder is an Alpha 80 deg in our parlance 40 deg. The proper designation is Alpha which take in both sides of the shoulder forming a cone.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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22-243 ?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2005, 04:12:19 AM »
Thanks for the reference Lone Star I'll try to get a copy of it..I haven't a clue as to why they are saying to go this way with the 22-250 case..unless it is a major typo..but..all I can do is to try to get in touch with the publisher and see..

Fred...they are saying to fireform the cases which is wierd since it's a 243 wildcat..and I don't know if their reasoning is faulty or actual experiments with the 22-250 case caused the  faulty results..or if they we just trying to get by with the smaller case as a means of making the cases...I'll try to nail it down when I have time to do some phone sluthing....

Funny thing about this book though...looking thru it...and looking at how they make brass from other cartridges..I looked at what they would make 22-250 brass out of...and here is what they say...

Make From:
Factory or 250 Savage.Anneal case neck and full-lenght resize in 22-250 die.Trim to lenght...243 Winchester brass may also be used in the same manner...So it would seem they are saying how to make brass in a pinch..if needed as well...

Mac
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Offline Fred M

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22-243 ?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2005, 05:03:11 AM »
Mac. I have added an important bold note to the above.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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22-243 ?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2005, 06:12:22 AM »
Thanks....I'll do somemore digging and see what turns up...funny thing about what your saying about the Gibbs  cartridges... if they were as bad as what you saying Fred...surely there would be some footnotes in most leading manuals somewhere or from other sources...but they are strangely absent...why is that?...Most of the cases that require a great deal of movement that are in this manual..are usually fireformed within the form die..they have specific instructions on how to do this and how to build the needed equipment.. with out forming them in the chamber where this will happen...and no mention of dangerous casehead seperations is mentioned with this conversion in this book.On the cases where fireforming in the chamber is recommended they state it..or if forming dies are needed...Perhaps their forming methods isn't as bad as what your normal procedures are...and they have devised certain practices that allow it...after all...wildcatting is an exact science and there are many ways to skin a cat..

As too having the chambers set up so having a tight neck isn't needed...that seems a odd...I've looked at many differnet combinations of wildcatting the 22 calibers...and most of them seem to gravitate towards doing just this to achieve optimum accuracy...including the .22 CHeeta of Camichael/Huntington...which is a very close performing cartridge to this one...using 308 Basic brass with the small primer pocket...

Like I said...there are many different ways to do things...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Lone Star

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22-243 ?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2005, 07:29:06 AM »
Quote
As too having the chambers set up so having a tight neck isn't needed...that seems a odd...I've looked at many differnet combinations of wildcatting the 22 calibers...and most of them seem to gravitate towards doing just this to achieve optimum accuracy...including the .22 CHeeta of Camichael/Huntington...
I guess I wasn't clear earlier; you can have a "tight neck" with any cartridge, it all depends on the size of the die/chamber neck and the brass thickness.  With the .22-243 for example, the neck walls will thicken when the parent case is necked down - in this instance assume it thickens by 0.005" total diameter.  If you take this thickening into account when making the dies and chamber and increase the die/chamber diameters by 0.005", you can still have a "tight neck" with the thicker neck brass in the .22-243, you just won't have to turn the necks to get the correct dimension if you don't want to turn necks.  But most accuracy nuts want to turn their necks anyway for uniformity.  This gives them the ultimate control of the "tightness" of their necks. If the necks are too tight there is a real danger of excessive pressures if the neck refuses to release the bullet because it cannot expand in a too tight chamber.

Offline safetysheriff

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22-243 ?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2005, 11:56:46 AM »
i really don't get it!   why hasn't anybody stepped up to the plate and told this guy that if he wants to burn up a barrel FAST he can do it in a muffler shop with a 'smoke-wrench' (cutting torch)!

let's be honest: you can't put two pounds of nitro' in a one pound can without creating problems. :eek:  :eek:     the 'real deal' in .22 cal' performance is still, after all this time, either the Swift or the .22-250, if you want anything anywhere near reasonable barrel life while having good availability of brass.

otherwise, there's always the barrel in the muffler shop routine as i see it.

just my opinion,

ss'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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22-243 ?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2005, 12:08:22 PM »
Ahem.......I think ya just did, SS!!! :-D  :-D  :-D
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2005, 12:12:04 PM »
Myself...I would rather do a 225 Winchester...but hey...that's just me :)  :-D  :)

Mac
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Offline Lone Star

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22-243 ?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2005, 12:56:42 PM »
Quote
i really don't get it!..... if you want anything anywhere near reasonable barrel life while having good availability of brass....otherwise, there's always the barrel in the muffler shop routine as i see it.

There is a problem with .243 brass availability?  I think that a previous poster implied your concern:
Quote
The 22-243 is a serious Loudenboomer for expert marksmen.

As for barrel errosion,  I am very careful not to overheat my barrels; I learned that lesson years ago when I burned out the throat of a 6mm Remington in one afternoon.  Shooting like a machinegunner will damage a barrel far worse than the cartridge it is chambered in.

But so what if the .22-243 burns out barrels?  A Corvette gets worse fuel mileage than a Civic, but the former is a lot more fun to drive.  And 99 out of 100 shooters will agree that shooting a rifle at the range is a lot more fun than holding a welding torch at the garage!  Why assume that all shooters are driven by your own sense of what is right and wrong?  Clearly you think that cartridges with more performance than the .22-250 or .220 are wrong, and I respect your opinion.  Others may disagree.  Hmmmm.   :D

Offline Mac11700

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22-243 ?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2005, 02:20:37 PM »
Quote
But so what if the .22-243 burns out barrels?


It would be a shame if this happened...just for the expense of it...and lost time in shooting...at least to me...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Tug Hill Drifter

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22-243 ?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2005, 02:47:46 PM »
Quote
i really don't get it! why hasn't anybody stepped up to the plate and told this guy that if he wants to burn up a barrel FAST he can do it in a muffler shop with a 'smoke-wrench' (cutting torch)!


Thank you for an informed opinion, and VERY humorous as well!  Maybe nobody "stepped up" because I didn't ask for info about barrel life.  Only wanted to know about twist availability.  But, you did say that "You didn't get it."
THD

Offline safetysheriff

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22-243 ?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2005, 02:57:33 PM »
Quote from: Lone Star

There is a problem with .243 brass availability?  I think that a previous poster implied your concern:

But so what if the .22-243 burns out barrels?  A Corvette gets worse fuel mileage than a Civic, but the former is a lot more fun to drive.  And 99 out of 100 shooters will agree that shooting a rifle at the range is a lot more fun than holding a welding torch at the garage!  Why assume that all shooters are driven by your own sense of what is right and wrong?  Clearly you think that cartridges with more performance than the .22-250 or .220 are wrong, and I respect your opinion.  Others may disagree.  Hmmmm.   :D


LS'

no, i'm not seeing a problem with .243 brass availability; but there could be with some of the other 'good' .22's like the .22ppc which i would use before ever trying a .22-243.    no, the .243 necked down is a 'loser' to me, which leaves the .22-250 and the Swift.

i'm not assuming -- at all -- that "all shooters are driven by" my "sense of what is right and wrong".     i'm trained to not make assumptions; but that hasn't precluded me from giving people friendly reminders or discussion of certain pitfalls in life.    i just don't find a lot of reason to hold onto things that seem downright unreasonable.    i like reasonable power and velocity......and want them to last.    i want decent throat/barrel life.  

no insult intended, but if i wanted to burn metal i'd do it another way.   a decent rifle -- to me -- is more than a tool to have fun with.....it is a piece of art with form following function.    and i want it to last.

take care,

ss'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline safetysheriff

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22-243 ?
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2005, 03:07:47 PM »
But, you did say that "You didn't get it."
THD[/quote]

THD'

hey, with you putting down 7 posts on this general topic (handi's) in 5 months, i'm thinking that you MAY not be an old hand at this, and you MIGHT appreciate a little HINT about "unintended consequences".

no, i don't/didn't get it; so i've bought a .223 Rem' and a .270 Win' rather than a Rem' saum' or a Win wssm'.    i just have not succumbed to the bite of that virus yet.   i can afford it.   but i can also afford to put my dollars elsewhere as well.  

if you do convert a Handi' to .22-243 i hope you enjoy it while it lasts.   i just don't think there's as much enjoyment to be had as out of some other calibers, is all.

take care and let us know how it works out.

ss'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.