Author Topic: 22-243 ? (Read 2013 times)

Tug Hill Drifter · « **Reply #30 on:** November 13, 2005, 06:08:15 AM »

SS,
I apologize for the tone of my reply. Your choice of words and refering to me in the 3'rd person,(this guy), while I'm on an active thread struck me as rude. I agree with your assesment in that I do not post much. Had I noticed the sticky refering to the twist rates, I would not have posted this time either. I'm very aware of throat erosion and it was one of the factors in my decision making process. (Available twist rates was another factor, and the reason for this thread.) I did not feel the need to communicate the entire thought process to the forum. I like to shoot irons that are different from the next guy's. Always have, probably a sign of a mis-spent youth. :-) I started shooting at age 7. Reloading, smithing, (for my own enjoyment) and wildcatting at age 17. (I am currently 51). All the best.
THD

safetysheriff · « **Reply #31 on:** November 13, 2005, 12:11:16 PM »

THD'

i apologize, too, for what in retrospect can be seen as a rude start to my post. it was not intended, just done in a hurry because of what i wanted to say..... no excuse, but not intended, anyway.

the part about, "i don't get it" had me wondering if my intent at a 'friendly reminder' was being seen as an attack. i try, frequently, to interject some humor on this site -- thinking that it makes it a happier place to visit. but i rarely intend to offend.

i hope you enjoy your work with this hobby; am glad to see that you are well-versed in it; and hope we hear from you more often.

best regards,

ss'

Fred M · « **Reply #32 on:** November 13, 2005, 01:15:47 PM »

Tug Hill Drifter,
As far as throat erosion is concerned, the 22-243 is not any worse than a lot of other hot shots. If you keep your barrel at a reasonable temperature you will get considerable longer barrel life.

With the longer/heavier/slower bullets the erosion will even be less progressive. Alas you need a faster twist.

High performance demands a price, if you have to talk about wearing out a barrel like many using it as an argument, then you should stay with a lesser chambering like a 223.

Wild catting is a fun game, and where would we be today if it was not for the wild catters. A bolt action is the way to go when the throat wears out you just set the barrel back and run in your reamer and you have a lot more shooting ahead of you, for very little extra money.

Bench Rest shooters set their barrels back three to four times but only very little just to freshen up the throat..

safetysheriff · « **Reply #33 on:** November 14, 2005, 01:11:05 PM »

fred,

i'm not sure i'd agree about the heavier bullets, but not because i shoot competition. i believe, from a couple of sites i've studied, that the heavy bullets, oftentimes developing more pressure behind them even with a lesser powder charge, develop more friction from their longer bearing surface and from the faster twist they sometimes require. it all adds up to more throat and barrel wear....and more set-back costs than a Handi' is worth. on www.long-range.com and on the sister site national match.com (or some such thing) they have some 'smiths posting at times that will tell you that the set-back costs can be prohibitive and even counter-productive with some barrel steels.....since more than the throat is actually being burned up.

the .22-243 is so overbore that if it is shot with a high load density of a very slow powder, or a quicker powder (single-base, i'd expect if of a low load density) with its greater pressure/temperature while the bullet is in the leade/throat, it will have to eat barrels. i see very little possibility to get the decent velocity our friend wants without loading heavy pressures behind that heavy-for-caliber projectile. otherwise he could go with a longer barrel, in a faster twist, in a standard .22-cal hot rock to pick up the extra velocity -- to some degree.

sure, wildcatting is fun, i'd say. elmer keith and p.o. ackley must have had a ball! but what good is a barrel burner really. i agree with Mac' on this one re: the expense and the lost time shooting the thing.

my two cents,

ss'

Fred M · « **Reply #34 on:** November 14, 2005, 05:06:22 PM »

safetysheriff.
You make a lot of good points. One thing I never would recommend the 22-243 and most AI's and Imps for a Handi . The stretch in the Handi action will greatly reduce case life. I experienced short case life in the 25-06 Ultra Handi even with moderate loads.

The same goes for the 257 Roberts which I load to no more than 53.5Kpsi. These cases need the shoulder set back and the case full sized each time I load them. I already discarded quite a few cases showing signs of case head separation after 8-9 reloads. That amounts to about 4.8cents a piece in our money.

Since this rifle shoots so well I will have the die reworked to better fit the chamber and have it converted to a bushing die. This will preserve the brass to some extent and eliminate some of the endless length trimming because FL sizing will lengthen the cases.

So wildcats in a Handi will present the same case problem with the additional labor to make and form cases.

The tell tale is quite visible. The only wild cat I would consider in a handy is the 30-30AI. Fire forming and brass making for Imps is not worth it if don't get more than 8 reloads from your brass. Neither the 25-06 nor the Roberts work with neck sizing, since you can't establish the two thou head space the Handi needs to lock up properly.

Dr. Ken Howell developed the 220 Howell this case is even bigger than the 22-243. His contention is that the cartridge developes only 49kpsi with a large amount of slow burning powder and surpasses most 224 calibers in velocity with good barrel life. I had several discussions with him and his claims made some sense.

What burnes out the throat is high pressure and that fact is well known. A heavier bullet does not have to develop high pressure with really slow powders since this powder burns all the way up the barrel. Needless to say long barrels are needed for increased velocity.

I am not really interested in the 22-243 but it is a super cartridge just the same. As I said before you have to pay the price for this kind of performance. 600 rounds out of a barrel is only 75 cents a round for the barrel but some of the hot shot Lazzeronies cost 5 bucks a piece so what is another 75 cents :eek:

I like small wild cats like a 6ppc, or the 22PPC-1/10"
the 270 Titus Savage, 7mmSSAI, 6x7FM, the 25Hunter and the 257AI and the 257 DGR and for a big ones the 338KTH and the 30-338Mag.

I still say there is too much emphasis on the barrel burning theory, since it is very subjective, and very difficult to take precise measurements of erosions.

Ricci Price · « **Reply #35 on:** November 15, 2005, 03:43:03 AM »

Hey Fred is the 257DGR based on 308 case? I have got a thought about this one and have had the thought for some time. Since have redone my lug on my barrel (25-06), I started thinking of shortening the barrel on the chamber end and relugging and get rid of the freebore and using a shorter case possibly 308/243/260? The DGR is formed I think around 90% from the die, so fire forming is not a necessity..... only guessing.

Fred M · « **Reply #36 on:** November 15, 2005, 06:06:49 AM »

Ricci
The 257DGR is best made from 260 Rem brass. But any 308 type can be used. All the forming is done in the die one stroke and you are done.

The body shoulder junction stays the same. The neck is lengthened by moving the neck/shoulder junction down. This changes the shoulder angle from 20 to 30 deg.

Since some of the shoulder brass is used for the neck, the necks have to be outside neck reamed. The DGR has a .288 chamber neck.

I would rather have a .282 for a complete neck clean up. I can't see a custom wildcat without a fitted neck.

Once you have neck reamed you are ready to go shooting, no fire forming. This is as good a 25 you can get.

You also want a fitted bushing die that sizes no more than two thou and moves the shoulder down two thou.

Look up the DGR here.

http://www.angelfire.com/nd/243ackleyimproved/

Ricci Price · « **Reply #37 on:** November 15, 2005, 08:27:06 AM »

Fred, I built a .45cal muzzleloader about a month ago for my H&R I made it out of a elcheapo adams and bennet 4140 chromoly, .458 (45-70), 1in22", 26", 1.250" blank, it shoots better than the 25-06. I made the lug with solid hole for the pin, also 4140. I chose the chromoly so that I can shoot smokeless. I used the same technique on my 25-06 barrel except I just milled the end of the lug off and replaced it with 4140 solid hole peice, for the ultimate in fit this is the way to go. I had to make different hinge pins for both barrels to get the perfect fit. Now that I have done this a couple of times I feel cofindent that I can make 257DGR out of the 25-06 barrel, I can't remember who has it but I have seen the reamer for the DGR for rent. I think it would be a better rifle in the H&R than the 25-06 or 243.

Fred M · « **Reply #38 on:** November 15, 2005, 10:37:57 AM »

Ricci

Quote

I think it would be a better rifle in the H&R than the 25-06 or 243.

I agree.

But if you go through all the work you better make sure you have a good dimensional consistent bore in that H&R barrel. With all the machining you can do I get a new barrel blank for the DGR. I think it be well worth the extra cost. The H&R mini grooves are not too bad when they are the right diameter.

The 257DGR is a fine accurate caliber and deserves a good barrel, without it you got nothing. This is why I like a rebore job on a Handi it turn the barrel into a super grade bore. My 257 R rebore is shooting 1/2" or less with match bullets. and it is nearly a superlight, The H&R barrel steel is first class.