Stokes Mortars

[Double D]

Based on letter from ATF we have recieved, bowling ball mortars are no longer off limits on this board.  See copy of the letter below.


Any discussion of making mortar tubes based on the Stokes design has been put off limits on this board.  The Stokes is a post 1898 design and in our opinion does not meet ATF's definition of an antique or replica cannon.


The Three Inch Stokes Mortar

If you can provide a letter from ATF saying that the muzzleloading version of the Stokes design is considered  as meeting the antique muzzle loader design we will allow discussion after the letter is posted on this board. Please provide the Moderators with a copy of such letter and we will post on the board and open discussion.

We do this for several reasons.  We don't want anyone to think that we here are saying that the making of a Stokes design is exempt as a an antique just because it muzzleloads, that is for ATF to say.  We also don't want ATF setting up a data mine on this board to look for unintentional innocent violators.

If others say it's legal to make a muzzleloading Stokes style mortar, that's fine, they can defend their postion with ATF.  We here will only deal with what is obvious to us as clearly being with in the definition.

Check here for additional information

This from the FAQ's ATF website.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#muzzleloading-cannons

Are muzzleloading cannons classified as destructive devices?

Generally, no. Muzzleloading cannons not capable of firing fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 and replicas thereof are antiques and not subject to the provisions of either the GCA or the nf. [26 U. S. C. 5845, 27 CFR 179.11]

PART 179--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents
 
                         Subpart B--Definitions
 
Sec. 179.11  Meaning of terms.


    ...Antique firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using
rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and
manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof,
whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also
any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for
which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is
not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

[Double D]

Based on the below letter Bowling ball mortars replicating the Stoke design are no longer off topic on this forum


Full size: http://www.fototime.com/770876464C875AC/orig.jpg


Full size: http://www.fototime.com/715A25C4056EB04/orig.jpg


Post with letter to ATF and follow on discussion.  Letter to ATF

 

[phsarge]

Double D
Just wanted to say thank you for getting the clarification. i have no intent to make one any time in the foreseable future but it is nice to know. Thanks again.
 
PH sarge

[keith44]

Excellent work DD!!  Though I have no interest in this style mortar, nor do I desire to own one that large, I must say thank you for all your effort in getting this letter of clarification!! 

[BoomLover]

Thanks for your efforts on this, Double D! I actually am making a mini version, with a fixed base, about 1 1/4/inch bore....I will try to post pics when it is done....BoomLover

[Cat Whisperer]

Seems like something fun to make  Since its now allowed 
Na just kidding

BUT you KNOW you'd love to have one!

[Cat Whisperer]

DD - a link to the original letter would marry-up the documents.


I would recommend (that means I'm going to do it too) that when we (I) build the next mortar that we use the format and that way there is NO QUESTION about "is it legal?".

Note in the letter that there is a reference to the ammo.  That is one item that I'm going to include.

GOOD JOB DD!   WE (I've) waited too long for SOMEONE ELSE to do it.

[flagman1776]

I think we should correct anyone who wishes to discuss a "Stokes Mortar"...  to understand that the ATF letter cited previously, authorizes a blackpowder & fuse type bowling ball mortar, reguardless if constructed from modern components like a section from a pressurized gas cylinder or "stokes components" like supporting mechanism.  I would name these "Bowling Ball Mortars" or "BBM" for short.  (Pretty much as is already done.) 
I believe from my reading of the ATF regs and this letter, that a "Stokes Mortar" uses post 1898 design, fixed ammunition (containing both propellant & primer), and exploding shells and is NOT covered by this letter nor likely to be approved under these regulations.  Anyone who wishes to build a true Stokes design mortar had best get their own (unlikely) approval letter from the ATF.
As was clearly, if roughly, pointed out to me when I first joined this board, exploding ammunition greater than 1/4 oz, changes the catagory of the launching devise (even if otherwise exempted) to the restricted & licensed catagory of a Destructive Devise.   This would indicate that only small firecracker launchers are legal under AFT regulations...  be very careful! 

[dominick]

Am I to understand correctly that ALL stokes mortar bore diameters are now ok for discussion?  ie, golf ball, tennis ball, 3" diameter can?

[BoomLover]

Dom, that is the way I read it, too. I already have a Mini (1 1/4") in the works, (almost done) and have the means and material for a couple in the range of "coffee can" size...have been on hold for sometime, and we thank you again, Double D, for your writing to the ATF!...BoomLover

[kaboom]

Thanks DD for the time you spent in the letter writing and the follow up.  I am sure there are many who wanted to make something as such but have been afraid to due to the four letter word... BATF.  I have been considering a BBM as I am sure others have, but have been unsure as to the design and limitations considering that it may resemble a stokes design. 
 
Now with the clarification by the return letter it may solve the question of using an O2 tank with a base plate and legs for support.  Now lets see some designs and construction tips on bowling ball moters.  Some may not want one but I sure do.

[Cat Whisperer]

Am I to understand correctly that ALL stokes mortar bore diameters are now ok for discussion?  ie, golf ball, tennis ball, 3" diameter can?

That IS what DD said.  And as the letter said the design criteria t hat DD asked about is OK.

Which is to say, if you have a design that you thing might be questionable - ask BATF.

BUT it's OK for discussion here.

[Rayfan87]

From the sound of it they are more concerned with ignition method and separation of projectile and propellant than the overall design.

[keith44]

From the sound of it they are more concerned with ignition method and separation of projectile and propellant than the overall design.

From my days as a licensed curio collector I must say that yes the big sticking point with the ATF is fixed ammunition that is readily available.

[ironball]

Go big or go home. Heh heh Heh.
 
 
 

[Artilleryman]

Ironball, That eight inch mortar looks familiar.  Who does it belong to?

[GGaskill]

It's a Hern (http://www.hernironworks.com/siegemortar.html).

[Artilleryman]

Thanks for the reference.