UNION BASHING

[stimpylu32]

Next time someone starts crying about union construction workers just remember , that when all of the illegals have trashed the good paying jobs and driven down the pay scale to non-union levels . Then they will drive down the non-union pay scale also.

WELL GUESS WHAT their doing it right NOW

SCRANTON, Pa. - Federal officials say the arrest of 125 workers at a construction site for a new Wal-Mart distribution center should serve as a warning to employers who hire illegal immigrants.


 
All 125 workers arrested in the raid will be deported, Immigrations and Customs Enforcement officials said Friday. The workers from Mexico and Central America were detained Thursday at the site outside Pottsville, about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia.

"Employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens, and those who utilize false documents to gain employment, face significant criminal and administrative charges," said John Kelleghan, acting special agent-in-charge for the immigration agency in Pennsylvania.

Some of the 125 workers, who are from Mexico, Costa Rica,     El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras, used fake documents to obtain employment with subcontractors, officials said. The arrests came after search warrants were executed for six companies at the site.

The Pennsylvania job site remains shut down, Wal-Mart spokesman Marty Heires said Friday. He did not know when construction would resume.

Agents obtained the search warrants after learning that 10 workers employed by Destin Drywall & Paint were using     Social Security numbers that did not match their names.

Another three used Social Security numbers that were never issued by the government, according to an affidavit unsealed Friday at U.S. District Court in Scranton.

Houston-based Destin has worked on Wal-Mart projects around the country, said office manager Cindy Wyman. She said the company verifies that employees are permitted to work in the United States.

"As far as I know, their Social Security numbers are good," Wyman said of the Pennsylvania workers.

A Wal-Mart spokesman has said the detained workers were not employed by Wal-Mart but by the subcontractors. Wal-Mart's contracts with the companies require that they follow local, state and federal employment laws, the company said.

Last month, Wal-Mart shut down work on seven stores under construction in North Dakota to check for illegal aliens after two illegal immigrants working on Wal-Mart projects in Bismarck were charged with molesting two 13-year-old girls. Charges against one of the suspects were dropped after authorities found out he was a juvenile.

In 2003, a raid of 60 Wal-Mart stores in 21 states led to the arrests of 245 illegal workers. An affidavit claimed a pair of senior Wal-Mart executives knew cleaning contractors were hiring illegal immigrants. The retailer agreed to pay $11 million in March to settle the case but denied senior executives knew of the hirings.

I for one am proud to be a UNION construction worker and am glad my fellow union brothers said enough is enough

Richard Kohli
IBEW Local 32

[Slamfire]

Maybe so, but I was with the Operating Engineers in PA when they priced themselves out of the class A construction business. The United Mine Workers got all the good contracts for buildings and bridges, and we were reduced to lower paying highway construction.
Then I went to CA and joined the Carpenters and Joiners, they started spending so much money on foolish political campaigns that they were forced to sell the local hall, as there was a high drop out rate.
I went back to the Operating Engineers in stationary operations, and the City recognized the IBEW as the bargaining agent for all the Generating Station operators. Then the Union went on strike twice for less than 1% raises.
I got into management in an outfit that had their own union. They promptly agreed to a two stage pay scale depending on what voltage equipment was involved. Turnover got so high the City had to buy that back. Meanwhile I was carrying "Brothers" who were doing substandard work in areas concerning the safety of field workers.
Now that I'm retired I'm at last happy with my bargaining agent, ME! And my employeer, my WIFE, Unions ain't the answer to everything, and I have no pity on any Union members who think the business agents and Parent Bodies are looking out for individual's welfare.
Most folks are better off bargaining for themselves!

[ShadowMover]

Unions are the only way a working man has to get the best price for his labor. If you think you can make a better deal, go for it. Don't bad mouth the guys who decide to get a better price. A working middle class guy, like most of us here, have only ONE thing to sell, our labor. Don't give it away. Unions have made my life very nice. This is not to say that they can't abuse their status, as we all know they have done, but management has done the same. Look out for yourself and your family. If you are working for $10 an hour and you could be bringing home $15 for your family through a union, who benefits?

 :oops:  spelling corrected

[williamlayton]

Unions are the reason we have a middle class--do the research before you answer. The unions have just about run their course as they are set-up these days, but, they could be an effective tool in the hiring of illegals and keeping pay at reasonable prices for the working man.
There are many concepts to unions, some good, some bad but I am for unions for the most part.
Illegals are, well, illegal and should be treated as such. If one cannot enter legally they should be found-hopefully stopped before they enter-and deported.
Most folks do not understand that this society is one of stairstepping. The older folks sacrifice in order that the next generation can do better. I am a product of this system, and, I bet most of you also. It may not be college but it can be of more skilled education that leads to better work.
If I had it to do all again i would have no concerns being a skilled carpenter, you should see examples of my carpentry to fully understand my thoughts, or any other trade. These folks are what built this nation and we are trashing it for, as another has said, short term gains and long term problems.
Blessings

[jh45gun]

Unions were good in their day when they started not no more. You union guys who blindly follow the union into long strikes never get your money back do the math. A good skilled worker is going to make a good wage union or non union. All the union does is protect the bums who are slackers and do not put a good effort into the job. That cost me the consumer money wether you believe it or not. Yea company management sometimes is not fair and yea they make money so what thats what they are in business for and when the wages and benifits get too high they move and you guys are still with out a job. Duh I have seen more fault with union than good. The local Airplane Mechanics went on strike locally against one of the large airlines. Fat lot of good it did the airline filed bankrupcy and hired other workers putting the striking workers out of a job. Pretty damn stupid considering the problems the airlines are having keeping going and the union goes on strike? Now these poor folks are out of a good job and the union still will want them to pay their dues to belong to the union. Figure it out. If you blindly follow the union you are a clone. Some union jobs like civil service is a bit different but  when it comes to the laybor type jobs some of you guys will price your self right out of a job and then bitch that management is screwing you. who is screwing who? If I owned a company I would hire who I wanted and not be slave to some union.

[Graybeard]

I've been all too familiar with unions for way too many years. My opinion of them is that they are the single worst evil in the US today. They are ruining the nation in my opinion. I see no good and only bad in them.

I well recall back when I was in the 7th grade my dad worked at one of the many shops in the Anniston, AL area where soil pipe was made. Back in those days when everyone used soil pipe for plumbing Anniston was the soil pipe capital of the world.

The unions talked the workers into a strike and it lasted MONTHS. In the end they finally settled for a nickel an hour raise. Not a man involved in that strike lived long enough to ever recover what they lost during the months long strike. Was the single stupidest thing I've ever seen grown men do.

No doubt once upon a time they were needed. That time has long since past. Now they do more harm than good. Yes I know those who are untion members blindly follow what the leaders say and do believe they are being helped but really I'm of the opinion you're just being brain washed and led down the wrong path. However I recognize your right to do so iffen ya wanna.

[stimpylu32]

GB , jh45gun , slamfire

You all have good points , I am not saying that anyone should follow the union blindly. But in this world of outscorcing to other countrys and illegals taking jobs someone needs to stand up and say stop .

I , for one , totally agree that the unions tend to cover the butts of some totally worthless people in the name of dues .

I also know for a fact that in the Petro-chem plant that i work , the company has forced the higher payed employees out to replace them with lower paid workers even though the petro industy is reporting RECORD PROFITS .

When companies like Walmart continue to force their suppliers to drive down prices and continue to pay sub-standard wages at the same time , it puts a strain on the tax dollars that we all pay to supply foodstamps and $$$ just so a person can live. And yet they keep showing record profits for a very few  share holders .

[mjbgalt]

look at it this way...an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

the free market adjusts automatically and 99 percent of the time you make what youre worth on the open market.

how much do you suppose someone's labor stocking cereal boxes on a shelf in a walmart is worth? sure as heck isnt 15 bucks an hour.

you need to look at it this way...new perspective. you have worked your whole life with a single goal in mind...owning your own business. you build it from the ground up, blood sweat and tears and such...missing a lot of your own life in search of your goal.

you finally succeed and you pay your workes fairly and you do your part for them.

and then one day they come to you and say they have decided to unionize and that they DEMAND a 20 percent increase in pay, shorter days, and more days off.

now what? this is YOUR company. someone else is literally stealing it. they are taking money from YOU and your family. money you need. you have two choices. you can liquidate the company and put them all out of work and dash your chances of your dream, or you can agree to their terms, lose tons of money, and wait for them to demand something next year.

THAT is how i see unions. they were useful at one time and very much needed but now they are just leeches and political tools.

you guys who work for them are most likely good people, hard workers. but you know what i am saying here, you can look around at work and see what's happening. good workers who are skilled and do good work could make that much out on their own or at another company...the only ones who benefit are Democrat chairmen and the lazy men who want a free ride on the backs of honest men.

-Matt

[fe352v8]

I think you need to differentiate between craft and trade unionism.  Craft unions, such as the IBEW, arose from the medieval guild system and provide a valuable function through their training and apprenticeship programs, by insuring that their member’s actual posses the skills to perform their jobs.  Trade unionism, or the organizing of relatively unskilled workers within an industry arose due to a lack of benevolence on the part of the employer; an example is Wal-Marts treatment of some employees.

With American industries facing huge unfunded pension liabilities, such as GM and United Airlines, and the involuntary conversion of many pension plans from defined-benefit to cash-balance type plans and the resulting lowering of benefits, from those originally promised, it would seem that trade unionism may still have a useful purpose.  However, in the current legislative and political climate, it seems much more likely that the rights of workers will continue to erode, as labor, being part of the general electorate, is as willing as everyone else to buy into the “faith and values” tripe coming from Washington.  To politicians “faith and values” seem to be, we value our stock portfolios and we have faith that workers will not notice them increasing in value at their expense.

While there is little doubt that unions have been part of the problem, the greed of those who control the capital and means of production, and their pursuit of profit maximization, at the expense of their employees, combined with the sanctioned disregard of agreements they have made are far larger contributor to the structural problems that are facing American industry.

We are quickly becoming a nation that no longer controls its’ means of production, out-sourcing, foreign capitalization, trade deficits, but rather a nation of non-producing consumers that control distribution and provide the creative impetuous.  We are slowly becoming the UK; the loss of basic industry will have long term and profound effects.  With the coming retirement of  “baby boomers”, such as myself, we may very well be the first generation to leave our children in a financially more precarious position than we were in.

The greatest evil foisted upon American workers, has been their own government, while facing massive deficits, our legislators instead of addressing them, voted themselves a $3100 raise and then took a two week vacation.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[stimpylu32]

Let me give a couple of examples , before i became a union member i worked for 2 different non-union companys .

The first one knew what the unions were bidding work at so he would bid work at 5% below union scale BUT he was paying 50% below union scale , with no health care or other bennies . Which meant that when MY daughter was born with a heart problem i was forced to file bankrupsy .

The second one was even worse , He would take guys from one job and move them to another job and bill both clients for the men , He is no longer in business but still has his 38 foot boat , his 500,000 house and his other toys .

The straw that sent me to the union was when i made the man $56,000 profit on one job and he had the nerve to charge me $ 13.00 for gas when i came home one weekend to see my wife in the hospital . And still no health ins.

I have been an electrican for over 20 years and still feel that i give a fair days work for a fair days pay . I can sleep at night knowing that i gave what i was paid for .

Do you think that 100 years ago when the company owners were exploiting their labor force for their own profits that they would have given a fair wage with out the pressure of the unions .

I now have health ins. , retirement program , life ins. and most inportant my family can live more than just day to day .

[BlkHawk73]

I'd be all for unions if the members didn't have thier "that's not my job" attitude.  I mean c'mon, you're getting paid to say, drive a bulldozer and won't pick up a shovel if some manual work is equired for a bit.   THAT is why I have ZERO respect for the unions.     Like they say,  if you want to keep people, send 5 union members to put up a street sign.

[Brett]

A question for Stimplyu32;  The one thing I hear contractors complain about the most is finding good help at any wage. So why did you continue to work for those bums that mistreated you, not paying you what you thought you should have been?  I would think that there would have been many decent companies eager to hire an experienced, licenced electrician at a respectable wage.

[stimpylu32]

Brett

It all depends on what you consider a respectable wage . Somewere that has a high cost of living , $ 10.00 may not be a fair wage , Yet some contractors feel that 2 or 3 dollars over min. wage is fair .

I have a very close friend that works for a non-union contractor and yes he does make a decent wage till you think about what it costs him every week .

He must pay for the uniforms his boss requires , health ins. ,fuel for the company truck he drives , His tools- not just hand tools but high dollar pieces of equipment and then try to save some money for retirement also.

I have tried to talk him into leaving , But he is worried that at his age he will not be able to support his family .

As a general rule most contractors around here have 1 or 2 men that make a decent wage and fill the rest of the company with low or non-skilled labor just to boost their bottom line .

I can not tell you all the times i have had to go into a project and fix problems as a result of this kind of workmanship .

AND AS YOU CAN SEE I NO LONGER WORK FOR THOSE BUMS .

[NYH1]

With American industries facing huge unfunded pension liabilities, such as GM and United Airlines, and the involuntary conversion of many pension plans from defined-benefit to cash-balance type plans and the resulting lowering of benefits, from those originally promised, it would seem that trade unionism may still have a useful purpose.  However, in the current legislative and political climate, it seems much more likely that the rights of workers will continue to erode, as labor, being part of the general electorate, is as willing as everyone else to buy into the “faith and values” tripe coming from Washington.  To politicians “faith and values” seem to be, we value our stock portfolios and we have faith that workers will not notice them increasing in value at their expense.


jon

People bash the UAW for the pension problems that General Motors is in right now, when in fact "ITS 100% GM's fault". Back in the 60's, 70's and even the 80's GM wanted to get bigger and bigger and bigger. At a time when the rest of the US (Ford, Chrysler and AMC) auto industry was getting smaller and more efficient GM was getting bigger. Now they have to pay the price or should I say their trying to weasel their way out of paying the price. The UAW and "Big Three" has a 30 years and out agreement. If you hire someone and they work for 30 years they get their pension, GM agreed to it!!!

Look at the early 1970's engines GM had for their full sized cars. You had three completely different 455 engines. A 454 engine and a 472 engine. Thats five different engine, made at five different plants that have no parts that could be swapped between the other engines to do the same thing when Ford had a 460 for all three of their brands and Chrysler had one big engine the 440 for all three of their brands.

The same thing gos for GM's 350 and 400 engines. Each brand had it own engine. Ford got a little goofy with their 351's having three of them but that didn't last long. Chrysler made smaller engines for all brands the 318, 360 and 400.

If you look at just this example alone you should clearly see that GM has no one to blame but themselves. The last I heard GM had 2.5 retirees for every active worker. The reason I mention this is because the good men and women that made ALL those different engines for GM back in the early 1970's are the ones that are retiring now and GM is gonna try and scr*w. GM opened plant after plant and hired thousands and thousands of works to support their stupid way of "thinking big" and now they want to cry and try to get out of it.....what a shame, don't blame it on the union!

[jrdudas]

I have always been a strong union supporter and worked a little more than half of my career as a union member.  I was in management for the last half of my career, and I've seen the good results of union representation and also the bad.  

As a union member my experience was that for the solving of everyday problems encountered in the workplace the union was mostly effective.  I found however, that when it came to big issues (the closing of a facility that led to the loss of my job) the union was entirely ineffective.  Actually, it was worse than ineffective.  The union essentially stood there and watched the company do everything they announced their intention to do without any attempt to stop them.  After the facility closing the union filed a grievence claiming the company had committed a direct violation of the contract.  A court arbitrator agreed with the union and instructed the company to "make it right".

The union and the company formed a joint task force to develop a plan to make the affected employees "whole".  The end result was that the union helped the company figure out a way to keep the affected employees from returning to their jobs.  So all my years of paying dues ended up with the union being more concerned about the company than about their members.  In my opinion a union is only as good as its leadership.  Even when the local leadership is strong and effective, the national leadership is either usually inept or more interested in working on their own agenda.  If their agenda coincides with that of the members you benefit.  If on the other hand their agenda is to put the most money in their own pockets, you will end up being the loser.

JR

[Lawdog]

Next time someone starts crying about union construction workers just remember , that when all of the illegals have trashed the good paying jobs and driven down the pay scale to non-union levels . Then they will drive down the non-union pay scale also.

WELL GUESS WHAT their doing it right NOW

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051119/ap_on_re_us/wal_mart_illegal_workers

I for one am proud to be a UNION construction worker and am glad my fellow union brothers said enough is enough

Richard Kohli
IBEW Local 32

I support you COMPLETELY!!!  My Father was a loyal member of IBEW Local(s) 302 & 340 sinse before W.W. II until he passed away in 1995.  While unions may not be perfect they are far from being the main labor problem in the United States.  In fact the United States wouldn't be the United States it is today without the unions protecting the worker.  Someone has to be the watchdog over "big business".  Lawdog
 

[williamlayton]

I cannot help but see more benefits from unions than bad. Unions have become corrupt and that is bad, they have sold their unions down the drain to those who, let's use the word enslavement, would enslave for profit.
Folks, whatever stripe you may be, this world economy everybody wants to get involved in has to have money to succeed. Where do those dollars come from? It seems to me it comes from folks who have enough money left over after paying the bills of necessity to buy a car or house or TV or whatever. It seems to me that if all this money is compressed into the hands of a few then nobody wins, even tha big guy. It seems to me that when this happens somebody is gonna change the color of money and it will all be worthless.
I have no real appreciation for most management. Most of these folks have scaled a ladder of success by climbing over dead bodies. Most management folks have need to look back at their roots.
I worked in the corporate world for 40 years and witnessed these type things. I made the statement that the best way to get ahead anywhere was to do nothing. promotion came to those who worked the system better and if one were to do something there was a chance for blemish on the record.
It worked for many. I have seen people spend the entire day walking the halls with a piece of paper in their hands, politicing and accomplishing nothing. It was funny in a way and sad. I enjoyed what I did and enjoyed the work. I enjoyed the accomplishments. I probably could have climbed a rung higher than I did but the price was not worth it too me.
Folks, no man alive is worth $127,000,000.00 a year to work for somebody else, if he owns his own company he would be hard press to justify paying this to someone else. Especially if you could hire someone else for less.
Soapbox is clear.
Blessings

[gino]

I retired in '99 from a UAW job (30 & out). Made good money & good benefits also spent a LOT of time on strike. Went through all our savings 3 times to pay the bills while on strike. The company I worked for had about 25k UAW workers in '79, when I retired it was around 5k. All that being said I shudder to think of what it would have been like working there without the union. We had management people that probably had to be stored in a broom closet when they were off-shift, because if they acted in the real world the way they acted on the shop floor someone would have killed them in under 5 minutes. FWIW
gino

[NYH1]

I retired in '99 from a UAW job (30 & out). Made good money & good benefits also spent a LOT of time on strike. Went through all our savings 3 times to pay the bills while on strike. The company I worked for had about 25k UAW workers in '79, when I retired it was around 5k. All that being said I shudder to think of what it would have been like working there without the union. We had management people that probably had to be stored in a broom closet when they were off-shift, because if they acted in the real world the way they acted on the shop floor someone would have killed them in under 5 minutes. FWIW
gino

gino, I still work for one of the Big Three and trust me when I tell you nothing has changed since you retired, sometimes I think I'm still in the 1940's or 1950's!

[ironglow]

...I almost hesitate to add here..NY Hunter and I have had this discussion before...and although we disagree on most points mentioned here, I believe we have a healthy, honest respect for each other, as men...
  At least I do...don't presume to speak for him..
 
  I worked for at union jobs for a few years and probably the most vexing situation for me was the dishonesty of the work rules.
   
  First let me preface this with the fact that I am a Bible-believing Christian, so dishonesty bothers me..

   As Blkhawk73 said...the "that's not my job" attitude...when I hire on to a job I make a contract (written or oral) saying..." I will do HONEST work for you for $XX per hour.
   Now if I'm a backhoe operator and have no earthmoving to do for a half day...or half hour, honesty behooves me to grab a broom a shovel  and do SOMETHING constructive. Sitting upon my duff and doing nothing for $XX per hour is stealing...as I see it !
   
   Am I saying the Corporate bosses are really honest ? Shucks no... but I can't do much about that.
   I CAN however, keep myself honest...and that's what I should do.

  As William stated, there is no man living that TRULY EARNS $XXXXX millions of dollars yearly....that is VERY dishonest..

   Often we hear folks complain about those filthy, unfair "corporations"..
 
  Do you have a 401K plan where you work ? Have you looked to see where your money is invested ?...LOL..welcome to membership in those "EVIL CORPORATTIONS "...LOL

   When I was young, I worked for local auto dealers as a mechanic (now called technician)...we used to get cars in from detroit that had ALL the panels misaligned, gobs of dum-dum smeared under the hood to cover gaps between the panels.
   On some cars, we could work 2-3 days and the panels STILL wouldn't align..
 Warrantes were 12 mos 12K miles...and you had to fight to get anything fixed, even under the "warrantee".
   For the most part, lots of chrome and shiny...but really low quality goods!
 
  Detroit mfgs. figured they " had it made" and didn't have to compete for this big, lucrative US market..
   The came Volkswagen..

   It was about then that I first examined a Volkswagen Beetle..due to a "fender-bender" that happened in front of the auto dealer where I worked..LOL
  Here was a simple, low cost automobile that was a real jewel..All body panels fit perfectly, the transmission (4sp as opposed to domestic 3sp)..no mars in the finish, in fact I looked "into" the paint rather than at it.
   NY and most of the "blue' state political leaders sold out to their union benefactors and made closed shops the order of the day..saying that one MUST join the union in order to work certain places...purely a political buy out..
   Now we see the auto companies leaving blue states and going to red states , where competition is still allowed.

  No surprise that the red states are growing and building while tha blue states are economically, dying..

  Public education is a disgrace , compared to private/Christian schools...who do their remarkable jobs on a much lower cost-per-pupil ratio..
  Union teachers can "free ride" with the union ..esp once they have "tenure"..No reason to work harder or excell..the incompetent gets paid the same and gets the same LUCRATIVE retirement package..
   The really good private/Christian schools are not allowed to compete with them..
   
   I am NOT siding with the "corporate barons"...who cajole cowardly executive boards into giving them obscene wage packages...although they can explain that to HIM someday..
   There is also a lot of "dead weight" in the executive, jr executive crowd..
 
   But the individual does not help his job by becoming just such "dead weight" as he abhors..

   I am saying that we as individuals can keep ourselves honest and upright...by earning an honest, competitive wage..

  Someday, I believe we will be driving mostly vehicles named Nissan, Hyundai, Mazda or Toyota...all made in the USA ..in red states..
..And the investor's money that is now in the "big three" will have found it's way to the new "big dozen".

COMPETITION is a wonderful thing..

    And we have to face the reality of global markets...although I thought Clinton's granting of "most favcored nation" status to Red China was a bit premature..to say the least..

   BTW..the folks that already work for those other auto companies in red states seem to be happy with their jobs...

[Leverdude]

I cant speak for unions like the auto industry or other big industrial type ones, or for that matter what the union situation is in other places.
CT however is a right to work state so no one can block out nonunion companies. I'v always worked in construction, mostly residential but alot of commercial work when I was younger for excavation companies.
 My dads been an operating engineer all my life for the local union. I never much cared union or not & we had alot of words over it when I was younger because he knew the only reason he had health insurance, a good wage, a quality work environment & on & on was the union. Being as I worked residential atuff mostly roofing & carpentry I was on the other end of the industry so to speak with very little unionization & a general contempt for union workers. One reason for the copntempt has been mentioned already, the its not my job attitude. Thing is thats a personal issue. Some guys are lazy, in CT eventually that guy will be gone as the union has to compete with the nonunion & still pay a better wage.
 I got older & maybe wiser I dunno but one day it dawned on me that my dads union company charged say $75 an hour for a machine & operator just like the nonunion companies, Yet because of the union he gets more of that money than the nonunion operators. Cant say the company he works for isn't profitable as by & large the union excavation companies here dwarf the nonunion. So if its not $'s what is it? Must be the quality. Theres training programs available, paid for from union funds which come from the union which is funded by the members working for contractors charging the same rates as nonunion contractors, that just arent available for nonunion guys. Why not? I dunno ask the contractors, they oughtta be able to fund it for their guys. But they wont.
Dad works sometimes in the off months for a local paving guy who's nonunion. The guy asked him to come on full time till he found out what it costs & when asked what the problem was as he charges the same rates as the other company he smiled & patted his pocket.  :roll:

I went 5 years ago to work for a fellow doing architectural sheetmetal work, mostly copper. Small 3 man shop but he's union. Charges the same rates as the nonunion guy mostly & sometimes less believe it or not. 5  years later I'm making $5 an hour more in my check + I have a pension & annuity full medical for me & my family & an awesome dental plan. Before I left I talked to my old boss & told him if he would match the package I wouldn't be leaving. Well I left so his answer was obvious.  
Theres good & bad in unions just like any political type thing & to lump all unions & union workers into a pile & call it garbage does everyone an injustice.

[NYH1]

Theres good & bad in unions just like any political type thing & to lump all unions & union workers into a pile & call it garbage does everyone an injustice.

Truer words have never been spoken!

[ironglow]

I have to agree with Leverdude and NY Hunter, in that there is good and bad in most any organization or group of same.
   I am not just flat against unions, just those that abuse their power.
  I do have to admit that as working people we would all be worse off if the unions had never been started.
   
   Right now, unions seem to be in decline but I believe that their power vis-a-vis the corporations will both wax and wane over the coming years..
     If the corporations start to take advantage of their workers in a definitive way...then unions will come back strongly..
   If the corporations act prudently, they may not come back so strongly..as with capitalism, such is governed by the law of supply and demand...

[Graybeard]

I'd generally have to agree with the both good and bad comments. However in my experience I've never been exposed to the good, only the bad. I could sit for hours and tell you horror stories of my experiences with unions. I'm long since retired and will never again have the misfortune of having to deal with one as a member or as management and yes I've been on both sides. But in all of my working years I do not recall one single worth while thing I ever saw the unions do where I worked.

There was a time when I think they were much needed but not today. I think there are more than enough laws on the books to deal with the abuses that unions once cured. Today I think they are along with Muslim extremists one of the two worst evils in this country and I think both are taking us down the road to destruction.

[stimpylu32]

At what point does a man or woman walking a picket line fighting for a fair and livable wage compare to a worthless piece of garbage that kills in the name of his or her god just because they can .    

A muslim extremist will kill anyone that does not belive the same way they do .

A union member will fight to improve the living conditions of all workers in his or her trade , not just their own .

I'll stop at this point due to the fact that this is a family site .  :evil:  :evil:

Richard Kohli
IBEW Local 32

[mjbgalt]

stimpy. you can be as mad as you want but what GB actually did was to say that he feels that unions and muslims are both contributing to causing this country harm.

there were no comparisons made between the two other than that. you asking about unions killing peope and etc, is off topic. it was never said or implied.

-Matt

[Sourdough]

You can thank the Teamsters for not having the natural gas on the Alaska north slope going to the lower 48 now.  When Aleyaska was building the oil pipeline they wanted to build a natural gas pipeline at the same time.  The Teamsters blocked it and pulled some heavy weight politions in to stop it.  Their idea was that after all the camps were torn down and everything returned to normal they would then bring up the construction and start everything all over again and get paid twice.  Only Aleyska said no not interested.  The gas pipeline has yet to be built.  That is what we can thank the unions for.

Also I have been forced to join the union just to be able to work.  We got no representation or nothing for our dues.  When some of us complained about the lack of representation and benifits a union reprensatative paid us a visit, and the member that spoke out the loudest, mysteriously had an accident the next day and was unable to ever work again.  That union rep made an appearance again that day and made it plain that anymore bad talk about the union could result in more accidents.  I quite that day and will never again work for a union.  And I dispise these socalled orginaziations that claim they are for the common man.  These socalled unions.

[ShadowMover]

Can we blame unions for global warming and the Kennedy assasinations too?  No doubt unions have faults, as does management. This is not to justify or excuse the criminal behavior. I've read and lived enough to know that, but the bottom line is the working man in this country is better off, as a group, because of unionized labor.
If you didn't call the cops when when of your own was assaulted, what can I say? I would have quit too, as you did.
As to the gas pipeline, if they wanted it built, it would have been built. I'm sure the unions were not the only factor.

[Graybeard]

At what point does a man or woman walking a picket line fighting for a fair and livable wage compare to a worthless piece of garbage that kills in the name of his or her god just because they can .

Clearly you misunderstood my comments.

I wasn't even referring to individual union members at all but rather to union management. Members are merely being duped by their management into supporting things not good for the Country, the company or the union members themselves. They are the cause of more jobs leaving this country and headed over seas than any other factor. They are taking the country down and fast.

But in no way are the actions of the unions similar to those of the muslim extremists. I merely say that in my opinion (note not stated as fact but as my opinion) both are doing great harm to the country. In different ways for sure.

[Slamfire]

Conco/Phillips, that most evil of oil companys, earned record profits of $1.43 a share. They won't pay out all of that in dividends. Considering the 1.5 BILLON dollars they declared, there must be an awful lot of share holders.
Conco/Phillips is the most evil, as they are financing the court challenge to Missouri's "you can take your gun to your company's parking lot" law.