Author Topic: Bullets jumping crimp  (Read 1751 times)

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Offline swampthing

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Bullets jumping crimp
« on: November 22, 2005, 06:45:57 AM »
Hi Veral,
           I hope you can help me with this one. My SRH .44mag shooting 280 WFN's is plaging me with crimp jumping. I have tried new Remington brass, Hornady brass, and I am going to give Starlines a try. This happens regardless of the load: A quick insight on my loads are 12.5g of AA#5 for 1185fps,  17g of AA#9 for 1250fps, and also a compressed 22.5g of H4227 for 1360fps. All of these loads contribute to the bullets jumping crimp to varying degrees, from least to most, no matter how they are crimped.
                    I have your book and have tried your method of crimping as a second step, also in varying degrees, from very easy pressure all the way to very snug pressure. I have tried the redding profile crimp die and that worked pretty good- to- O.K. but It shaves my bullets alot of the time. I have tried your method of opening the profile die with some 320grit but I went a little to far I think, as the crimp now looks like a  swagged down crimp groove and not the roll that it did originally, also the roll that the "stock" redding die provided was not a consistant thing as it required a tremendous amount of force to get the mouth to roll and sometimes it wouldn't even do that. {trimed cases and uniform bullet seating yes}
                     I have heard that many shooter have this problem with really stormer loads and heavy bullets, but mine are very mild and they still do it. Accuracy is great for the first 3 shots but after that the bullets have moved, sometimes all the way past the crimp groove. My dies are RCBS and my press is a cheap cast aluminum Lee, that has slight side to side deflection in the ram arm, maybe that wobbles the load going in thus loosening case grip, but it is slight and not really felt but it can be manually moved a few thousandths.
                      I think I've tried everything, but I hope I missed somthing that you can pick up on.
Thanks.

Offline Veral

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2005, 08:10:40 PM »
In my experiance, bullet pulling in revolver loads has always been because of a neck expander plug which is  TOO SMALL.  Optimum expander plug diameter is .0002 smaller than bullet diameter, and it's length should be long enough to expand the necks well below where the base of the bullet will be seated.  By optimum, I mean, maximum case neck grip will be obtained when the plug is almost bullet diameter.

  The reason.  Most expander plugs are way smaller than nominal bullet diameter, which is not a problem with jacketed bullets, and doesn't hurt gas checked bullet performance like it does plain base.  With plain base, or bevel base, even 20 bhn bullets (high hardness) will be sized with a taper, small at the base in being seated.  Lead just isn't strong and wear resistent enough to work as an expander plug.  The tapered bullets will tend to 'pop out' of the case due to this taper.

  With a proper expander plug, crimp strength is of far less concern.

     If bullets are relitively soft they will taper more than if hard, and with either hard or soft bullets, an aditional problem can be leading in chambers and around the outside of the brass with loads which are too low pressure to expand or obturate the bullets base to effect a seal against the cartridge brass before the bullet starts moving.   Inferior accuracy can also be caused by the flopping bullet base, and even if it obturates and cannot flop, it will not obturate perfectly concentric, and accuracy will be lost.

  Never open up the area above the crimp stage in seating dies unless it is griping or marking the bullet nose.  A matter normally of concern only if bullet diameter is larger than nominal jacketed diameter for the caliber.
Veral Smith

Offline swampthing

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2005, 04:10:07 AM »
Ah ha, thanks a lot for the help. Just to verify .0002" under bullet diameter? .4318" for my .432" WFN's.  
                           One last thing if I may, does it really matter if the expander plug is of a gradual taper that opens up the mouth to accept the bullet, or is a lyman M die with its stepped up diameter at the case mouth a better choice? I've heard that the M die was a little better for loading cast. RCBS says they will make it any any diameter I want, I think Lyman would do the same.  
Thanks again, this one really had me stuck.
swampthing

Offline Veral

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2005, 12:11:45 PM »
You have the diameter right, though this should be considered a target diameter, or optimum size, as precision is a bit elusive when working this close with a lathe, as most people will be doing.  I always put a taper for flaring the case mouth, rather than a step as in the Lyman M die.  I like the taper best because one can adjust the amount of flare needed to prevent lead shaving when seating bullets, and not overwork the brass at the mouth as a fixed diameter which is well over mandatory size would do.  This to give maximum case life before the necks split.  I hand file a nice radius on the starting end, in the lathe, after turning to final diameter, and cut the taper which will flar the case by either setting the turning tool to the desired angle so the final cut leaves the taper, or use the compound set at 30 degrees, so the taper is gentle.  Polish the part well in the lathe after turning, as doing it after heat treatment is difficult if the maching isn't real smooth.

  Best material for making expander plugs is oil hard tool steel, which is available from steel suppliers.  Lathe turn the part, heat to a dull yellow, quench in oil until the part can be held in the hand.  Draw by warming gently until oil on the part smokes when the torch is removed. (About 450 deg F.)  Allow to cool to room temp and  draw again.

  Warm gently means hold the acetelene torch back from the part, with a fairly low flame, so the heat doesn't come up too rapidly.  Drawing is mandatory to prevent the part from cracking some time later.  If you purchase water hard drill rod, only one draw is needed, and ideal draw temp is 400 deg to retain maximum hardness.  The double draw is mandatory for oil hardening tool steel because it goes through a secondary hardining cycle at room temperature.  You don't need to understand all the tech details so long as you just draw twice.

  Water hard will shrink .002 per inch of diameter, so allow a bit more than .001 oversize for this shrinkage.  Oil hard expands very slightly when heat treated, so the part can be cut to almost the exact desired diameter before heat treatment.  With either, polish to final diameter after the part is hardened.
Veral Smith

Offline swampthing

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2005, 02:12:28 PM »
I just got my dies back from RCBS, they gave me a .429" expander plug.
The original one was .425" .  Even though this is not the ideal size, I did try it out for the heck of it:
                                     Pulled bullets still were swaged down between the groove and GC, but, remaining Bullets in the gun barely moved when fired. They would jump out past the crimp groove when I used the .425" plug on most loads. With the .429" plug and 22.5g of H110 under my 280g WFN I fired 3 and looked for a jump, it was negligable, fired again... checked the rest... the same, fired again... checked again... the same. I did notice one of the bullets moved more than the rest but it still was not behind the crimp groove. Bullets were also a lot more tough to pull from brass.
               This is a substantial difference, these bullets would jump even with 12.5g of AA#5 for 1185 fps negligable but still moved, now H110 at 1375+ fps will hold just as tight.
              I did order a custom size .4315" plug from RCBS and I'm hopeing that it will eliminate the rest of/little movement that I am expieriencing with these loads and other loads.
 Thanks again for the help, my skull thanks you also, looking foward to Boar hunting with the set-up.
All the best,
swampthing

Offline Veral

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2005, 05:58:45 PM »
Thanks for the report.  If you will, please write a little piece about results with the full sized plug.  My readers might believe you better than me.  :wink:
Veral Smith

Offline swampthing

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 04:09:45 PM »
I got to the range today to try out my .4315" dia expander plug. I made 2 sets of 5 consisting of 16g of AA#9 and a .432" 300g WFN with Hornady brass and WLP's. Every thing was the same and I seated them till I could just barely see the crimp grove. One set I crimped only till I felt the case mouth bottom out against the bottom of the crimp groove... shot a couple and checked for jumping... barely perceptable with the eye, if that. The second set of 5  I crimped until I could just feel that the bullet was about to be swagged past the crimp shoulder of the die, firm, but not deforming... No jumping at all.  Both of these loads shot with basically the same size group with most shots touching and all with in 1.5". Now I will get to work on the powder charge to see what it really likes. I did not crony the 2 to see if the difference in neck tension affected the velocity spread, probably won't bother as this system works great.
Thanks again for your help on this one Veral, it is greatly appreciated.
swampthing

Offline Veral

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2006, 08:36:13 AM »
Thanks for the information.  Don't bother to chronograph as case grip is the only real concern for you in this instance, and you won't want to change the best anyhow.  For you information, any velocity change will be minimal and unimportant, normally going up very slightly with increasing case grip, but not necessarily, as sometimes holding the powder in place for a microsecond or so longer inprooves burning efficiency in a way the slows the burn slightly and decreases pressure.  This is merely an interesting thing to watch for to tuck under our experiance belt.  Definately not a matter of concern so far as danger.
Veral Smith

Offline azvaquero

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2006, 07:57:12 AM »
Veral, for maximum case grip, what is the optimum ID of the brass case that we should look for (i.e., how far under bullet diameter)?

The reason that I ask for the ID of the brass instead of relying on the OD of the expander plug, is because I have special oversize dies for my .44 mag and .45 Colt, that leave the ID of the brass on the .45 Colt, for instance, at .451", without even using the expander plug.  This works the brass much less.  The stock plug that came with my dies is smaller than .451, so does nothing but bell the brass.  Another expander plug (pulled out of a .45-70 die set) expands it to about a thousandth over bullet diameter.  I could polish this down with wet and dry paper in a drill press or lathe, but I shoot a lot of .453" bullets, and the .451" I get with my regular combination seems to be optimal.  Is .451" ID on the brass optimal for .453" bullets?  Thanks.

Offline azvaquero

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2006, 08:00:28 AM »
Veral, for maximum case grip, what is the optimum ID of the brass case that we should look for (i.e., how far under bullet diameter)?

The reason that I ask for the ID of the brass instead of relying on the OD of the expander plug, is because I have special oversize dies for my .44 mag and .45 Colt, that leave the ID of the brass on the .45 Colt, for instance, at .451", without even using the expander plug.  This works the brass much less.  The stock plug that came with my dies is smaller than .451, so does nothing but bell the brass.  Another expander plug (pulled out of a .45-70 die set) expands it to about a thousandth over bullet diameter.  I could polish this down with wet and dry paper in a drill press or lathe, but I shoot a lot of .453" bullets, and the .451" I get with my regular combination seems to be optimal.  Is .451" ID on the brass optimal for .453" bullets?  Thanks.

Offline azvaquero

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2006, 08:02:46 AM »
Veral, for maximum case grip, what is the optimum ID of the brass case that we should look for (i.e., how far under bullet diameter)?

The reason that I ask for the ID of the brass instead of relying on the OD of the expander plug, is because I have special oversize dies for my .44 mag and .45 Colt, that leave the ID of the brass on the .45 Colt, for instance, at .451", without even using the expander plug.  This works the brass much less.  The stock plug that came with my dies is smaller than .451, so does nothing but bell the brass.  Another expander plug (pulled out of a .45-70 die set) expands it to about a thousandth over bullet diameter.  I could polish this down with wet and dry paper in a drill press or lathe, but I shoot a lot of .453" bullets, and the .451" I get with my regular combination seems to be optimal.  Is .451" ID on the brass optimal for .453" bullets?  Thanks.

Offline swampthing

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2006, 03:59:55 AM »
Not Veral but have done this one till death.
       I have found case grip to be the best when the ID is within .002" anything less and my bullets jumped crimp, plus, were swaged to a taper when loaded, even at 21BHN. I have not tried anything else as this has solved my problem.
      My .4315" diameter plug leaves roughly a .430" ID after expanding, due to the springback effect of the brass. With this diameter plug, my .432" bullets are the least deformed/swaged by the loading process, confimed after pulling and measuring loaded bullets. With my .4285" plug my 21BHN bullets are swaged down to .429" in some areas and they get tapered. This is even worse with the factory .425" plug.
      Even with all these different attempts at finding maximum case grip "there is no free lunch", it is still necessary to use a firm crimp, as the bullets will slide {not jump like before}  if not crimped to the bottom of the crimp groove with firm pressure. This slide is very minor, case mouth never leaves contact with crimp groove, but is evident if you look hard enough. With smaller ID from the "undersize" expander, bullets literally jumped .125"-.250" past the crimp groove no matter how firm they were crimped.
        Again not Veral, but all this has been my actual expeirience with this in my revolver, now my 280g, WFN GC, 1300 fps loads, make one ragged hole at 50yds and no crimp jumping.

Offline Veral

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Bullets jumping crimp
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2006, 05:45:54 AM »
Swampthing has done a good job of describing the sizing plug thing.  Springback of the case leaves the expanded brass quite a bit smaller than the expander.  This is your case grip and it isn't possible to get more grip by having the bullet do the expanding.
Veral Smith