Author Topic: The Handi's are GONE! (Read 1985 times)

tacshooter · « **on:** November 23, 2005, 02:59:06 PM »

Well Folks, I tried everything I know to get these things to shoot to my desires and could not do it. I've been reloading for 28 years, and nothing in that realm helped. My final thought is "THOSE DARN LONG THROATS" ARE THE MAJOR CULPRIT! I sold the whole lot to a farmer who wanted a "Tractor Gun" The only great shooting barrel I had was a 30-30 that I sold to Deadeye, God rest him! I bought a Bolt Gun today in 7mm-08, so I have to get it sighted in ASAP in order to be ready for my hunt week. I'll still be moping around in the forum from time to time, I just won't be a Handi-Man.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!

Tacshooter :sniper:

Duce · « **Reply #1 on:** November 23, 2005, 03:10:42 PM »

Tac: I've been tempted to give'em up myself. Not so much of a lack of knowledge or will to tinker, but more a matter of no time. If the women don't find you handsome, let'em find you Handi:

<>< Duce:

MSP Ret · « **Reply #2 on:** November 23, 2005, 03:27:36 PM »

Well guys. I have not been tempted to give them up yet, but the same goes for women (at least my wife :-D ). And as far as them finding you handy, it doesn't matter to me how they find me, as long as they do find me!!!....<><.... :grin:

Fred M · « **Reply #3 on:** November 23, 2005, 04:31:13 PM »

Well you guys I have been cursing the Handis more than once, I even gave one away, all I wanted to get out of the brand new rifle was the scope and rings. Alas it came back because the guy could not even afford that.

The 257R has been a long haul but it did finally wanted to be a shooting rifle. So here I am still frigging around with another poor Handi which is just aching me to spent money and time on, I wished it would just shoot as is. I know many would be quite happy with a 223 1-1/4" accuracy but it does not turn me on as a gopher gun.

And as long as H&R uses button rifling with out stress relieving there will be very very few tack drivers around. Their process makes barrels bigger at the muzzle than at the chamber end. The more metal that is removed by contouring, the bigger the bore gets at the end. That is the story of the supperlight. The better shooters are the bull barrels wich have more even bores and less metal removed.

Like Ruger Remington and Savage, H&R should invest in a hammer forging barrel mashine or buy hammer forged barrels. No need for stress relieve on them. Here I am stirring the pot again.

Mac and Quick will be on my ass writing stuff like that. Ah but I can go away if that is more suitable.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** November 23, 2005, 04:48:45 PM »

Don't go away again, Fred... I'm more than willing to be patient while you ramble in hopes of sorting out the good stuff that you share from time to time!! :wink:

trotterlg · « **Reply #5 on:** November 23, 2005, 04:50:14 PM »

Hammer forged barrels have more stress built up in them than any other barrels made. Imagine putting a shaped carbide rod in a piece of metal that is 15 inches long and then pounding on it until it is half the diameter it started at and 30 inches long, now that is stress! The lousy performance a lot handi's get is mostly due to the very flimsy way they lock up and the lack of rigid frame to barrel connection. Last time I checked Savage used button rifled barrels just like the handi's do. The bull barrels shoot better because they have a lot more mass to help make up for the poor connection to the receiver. Larry

stolivar · « **Reply #6 on:** November 23, 2005, 05:03:25 PM »

I game up on all my handi's last summer. I will not come back. Had handi's for the last 15 years.

steve

poncaguy · « **Reply #7 on:** November 23, 2005, 05:45:55 PM »

Too bad guys. My 308, 45-70, 22-250, 30-30, and fluted 204 and 223 are all accurate Handi's, my 243 and 7-08 are coming around the more I shoot them. 44 maggie is only 2" or worse handi......both 17's are tack drivers...

Fred M · « **Reply #8 on:** November 23, 2005, 06:34:17 PM »

trotterlg.
I advise you to to read up on barrel making. See Lilja Barrels and read about hammer forged barrels in this month PS Shooting magazine. Ruger has four hammer forging machines and Remington has more I could be wrong about Savage. But there are presently 20 of these machines in the US making hammer forged barrels.

These machines cost over a million each imported fro Austria who but the big rifle makers can afford them.

And they make one heck of lot better barrels that H&R, with an interior tolerance of 0.0002. They can be made with a interior taper and super smooth. They need no flitzing or break in.

I think you are doing an injustice spreading falshood on this forum and since you know so much about barrels and its manufacture. What is contained stress and how does it react in a barrel?

Just take a superlight barrel and slug it on both ends if you know how to do that and you find that what I said is correct.

Quick Tim. I am in a bad mood because I was to have 4 new windows installed today now they wont do it till Friday pm. This interferes with me going hunting Thur Fri Sat. Yes I ramble on, you know there are 55 replys on my inquest at AR. All these guys think that Whelen is the cats meow.

No, I have not changed my mind about it being a dead beat. But who cares. Some guy wants to crank it out in a 1-12' twist. Lucky H&R will use a 1-16" twist obviously they used the same formula as I did.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 23, 2005, 06:44:20 PM »

Fred:

Happy Thanksgiving

You hit the proverbial nail on the head that time ole friend...those hammer fordge barrels are some of the smoothest ,sweetest shooting barrels I have ever had....Man...if I could have 1 rifle back it would be my26" pre USRA Model 70 270 Westerner...now that was truely the " Rifleman's rifle"...too bad a-lot of folks will never get to shoot a really good one...they just cost too much for us average guys...

PS...Sorry to here about your windows... :twisted: ...I've had the same thing happen to me before...

Mac[/b]

trotterlg · « **Reply #10 on:** November 23, 2005, 07:00:47 PM »

It is well known that hammer forged barrels have a lot of stress built up in them, it just common knowledge and the nature of the process. They are very cheap to make in quanity and will deliver acceptable accuracy, they don't respond well to heating after multiple rounds unless they are heat treated, stress relieved and straightened after forging. They do have an exceptional life span. Mostly they are made in polygonal rifling which is not a bad thing, just look at the Glocks. If you want a real barrel you must get a cut rifled barrel, second are the butten rifled barrels followed by the broach cut barrels which are quite rough, (take a look at the offerings from Rossi). If you believe every thing you read in the shooting mags you are a fool. Larry

Fred M · « **Reply #11 on:** November 23, 2005, 07:45:05 PM »

Thanks Mac for the happy Thanks giving.

Mac the 300Wby I had for 25 years had a hammer forged barrel by Sauer.
It shot and shot and shot. Wby went from Sauer to Japan and the barrels were not anywhere near as good. Since their barrel shoot so well again and made in the US they could be hammered too. All the Ruger barrels are hammered

Some of the best production barrels in Europe are hammered. The misconception of hammer forged barrels is clearly evident in the above post. At least I got a lesson in barrel technology and called a fool because I read PS Shooting!

:eek:

Mac I will request a complimentary copy of PS Shooting for you with the Handi on the cover. I send them a fax tomorrow.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #12 on:** November 24, 2005, 01:58:09 AM »

Well, this thread has gone off topic to barrel design, but what the heck.

Fred, you say that Ruger uses the hammered barrels too, but I have read time and time again folks abusing Ruger for their lack of off-the-shelf accuracy. I have a M77mk2 in 30-06. It's a safe queen but it always shot well enough for me. Wadda you think?

Ian

Lone Star · « **Reply #13 on:** November 24, 2005, 02:20:25 AM »

Common knolwedge is a dangerous thing...because it is so often wrong. The common man believes almost anything, and even when confronted with the facts still clings to his misconceptions. Fortunately for us, professional engineers and barrel makers know the facts and can protect us (occasionally at least) from mistaken ideas borne of ignorance.

While IMO Precision Shooting has degraded itself somwewhat in recent years in the attempt to increase its circulation, it still is a wealth of good technical knowledge. Some of the writers are engineers and barrel makers and if they don't know the facts - who does? Clearly not the common man and his "it is common knowledge that the earth is flat and if you don't agree with me you're a fool" schtick. :roll:

Haywire, Ruger had beaucoup accuracy complaints back when they still used Wilson barrels (and others) and before they started using the forge. They did have barrel issues soon after they started using their hammer forge, but with practice their current barrels are good. Remember that it is not the tool which matters, but the man who uses it. Ruger has no intention of making barrels the equal of Lilja or Hart, their machine was purchased to make barrels fast and cheap. No matter how good the barrel, if the chambering job is poor the rifle won't shoot. My two hammer-barreled Rugers shoot fine to very fine, but it took action, stock and trigger modification to get them there. The barrel isn't everything; the thinking man is aware of this. Too often, the common man doesn't think enough.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #14 on:** November 24, 2005, 03:23:08 AM »

Tacshooter; If you sell all your Handi's your hair will fall out,your eyes will cross,and all your children and grandchildren will be born naked.If everone did this,the powder co.'s will go under,the bullet maker's and everything inbetween will suffer.It usually take's 7 different powders 300 rds. of assorted bullets and lots of cursing before I get one to shoot right. It nearly drives some of us crazy trying to beat the acuracy of factory Rem. corlokts,(easy in a bolt rifle) Everyone will be mad because you showed a spark of intelligence and they did'nt(me included). Jerry's wholesell has a 527 CZ varmit rifle for $357 on sale and I'm haveing a hard time trying to decide which barrels I'll have to sell to buy one. :-D :-D :-D :-D Digger

Duce · « **Reply #15 on:** November 24, 2005, 03:24:08 AM »

Tac: Looks like your thread has went around the bend. Still don't be a stranger, or atleast no stranger than anyone else around here. :-D :-D :-D <>< Duce:

Chainsaw · « **Reply #16 on:** November 24, 2005, 03:36:12 AM »

I too given up on 2 different handi's one in 308 and the other in 30-06. The 308 had no accuracy whatsoever plus the case sticking problem, the -06 was fairly accurate but my rifles are all "working" rifles and occaisonally it would have the stuck case problem(after all the fixes) and I couldn't trust it for a follow-up shot on a whitetail, so I traded it for a s/a pistol.

I have now just two 30-30 handi's (bought them for the wife and kids) that have had zero problems. One is an older H&R with the slimmer profile barrel that is my whitetail rifle and is ok in the accuracy department but a joy to carry in the field. I use this rifle all the time. The other is a mid 90's NEF and I have a Tracker rifled barrel for it also. The 30-30 barrel is very accurate, but it doesn't get used much. The Tracker barrel is used here at home to hunt whitetails and I have drilled and tapped it, so a scope can be used. I presently don't have any other rifles but the two single shots. Seems every year I go hunting and use the same rifle as it is my favorite. I keep the other for a back-up in case of a scope problem or other eventualities.

It seems that everyone here has had good luck with the 30-30 Handi. Is it safe to say that the 30-30 barrels are some of the most accurate that H&R 1871 has made in a general sense?

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** November 24, 2005, 04:34:41 AM »

Haywire Haywood.
I only have one Ruger 25-06 barrel on a #1. It is the most accurate production barrel that I ever owned. It shoot in the low 2's.

Apparently the biggest problem with hammered barrels is obtaining super clean and uniform barrel steel blanks that have no inclusions.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #18 on:** November 24, 2005, 04:55:31 AM »

Fred, I agree with you about the hammer forged barrels, Hammer forging does not induce stress in barrels but helps reduce it. As an avocation I have fitted people for and made golf clubs for the last 10 years or so and have done a fair amount of study on what makes a good golf club. One of the most telling features of a good club is hammer forging (if you want to spend the money AND are good enough to utilize it's potential) which relieves stresses within the head of the club and allows the full potential of the club to be felt and used. A good forged head sounds and feels great when hit properly, something not attainable to such a degree with cast clubs. Happy Thanksgiving and have a great hunt after the windows are installed. Don't be to disappointed about one days delay, I have been fighting with an addittion and renovation for almost 16 months now!!! :x....<><.... :grin:

Brett · « **Reply #19 on:** November 24, 2005, 04:59:09 AM »

I suppose I would be disappointed too if I was expecting a $200 hunting rifle to shoot like a bench gun. I think the Handis hold their own against any out of the box, production hunting rifles in the lower price class made by any of the major manufacturers. If I keep my expectations realistic I shouldn't be disappointed. Would I expect more from a six or seven hundred dollar Weatherby or Ruger No.1 ? Damn right I would, but look at the difference in cost.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 24, 2005, 05:03:34 AM »

Fred...Thanks...

...I look forward to the complimentry copy...as to the Rugers in-accuracy problems..there has been tons of information on relieving the forend of some wood and adding an attatchment hanger and screw for putting the proper tension on it to improve the accuracy written on the subject... Anyone owning these and striving for bench grade accuracy should do a search and see...That being said...trotterlg is partially correct...but only partially...when it comes to the hammer forging of barrels...the process of the finish work is just as important and the barrel isn't finished once the first process is done...this is why true Hammer fordged barrels cost much more than other types...this finishing is figured into the cost..and the manufacturers who still do this ..produce some of the finest accuracy grade massed produced barrels around...Winchester still does this partially..but as with anything else...they have started cutting corners...the pre-USRA guns that were produced were some of the most accurate rifles around...and the barrels showed how much went into them ...I have a fine cut barreled 338-06 Handi...remember...and while the rifle is a great shooter..it still needed work to bring it to my level...sure..I could have paid Wayne at Oregunsmithing to do it for me...but..I didn't and finished polishing it myself...just as Quickdtoo did...it's a great re-do on a Handi..and to me is worth the price I paid..Would it had been as accurate as my 270 Westerner...had I not done the final polishing...I don't know..but..the point is moot anyway..and 1 other thing...no-one is a fool here...that isn't appreciated or needed to be implied...those that actually have owned and shot fine hammer fordged barrels can attest to the repeatable consistant accuracy given by them when done correctly...the amount of world records in the shooting world can attest to this fact as well...budgetary constriants has stopped them from being produced like they used to be and have gone the way of pre-64 model 70's...

Mac

poncaguy · « **Reply #21 on:** November 24, 2005, 05:13:06 AM »

I'm glad I put in my own windows, getting the old ones out was a &*^%#$, being a brick house, blew insulation in attic last weekend, and had a new furnace and air installed 2 weeks ago. Will be cutting a lot of firewood this winter too for my wood burning stove/insert.
Now, I can relax in comfort and hunt! I'm glad most of my Handi's have very good triggers and shoot really well. My Ruger 77 260 is a shooter, as well as my Stevens 7-08, though my Stevens 25-06 isn't too hot. My most accurate deer caliber rifle is my Winchester Super Shadow 270 WSM, but my Handi 308 is real close to it. My Encore rifle in 7-08 is really poor, while the 204 barrel is excellent.
My 2 cents, .......now for some turkey!

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** November 24, 2005, 05:38:14 AM »

MSP Ret.
The trouble is, today and the next two days are the only ones left in the hunting season where I hunt. So I leave on Fri night and hunt on Saturday.

Dependability is also gone with the TODO bird. I should not have to be here for the window installation but my wife says I should watch it. My wife has a lot more sense than I have.

Anyone interested in accurizing a Ruger#!. Here s what I did.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/ruger1wp.html

Mac I send the FAX to PS Shooting. Hope you get the copy, let me know.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2005, 06:11:56 AM »

Will do Fred...and to all the rest of the gang here...no-matter where you are or what your doing...

From my house to yours...I wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving

Mac

tacshooter · « **Reply #24 on:** November 24, 2005, 09:01:16 AM »

I expect a $200.00 rifle to perform like a a $200.00 rifle, not like a $5.00 rifle! These are bad! I have been able in 28 years to make any rifle a decent shooter! NOT THESE! NEF really needs to take a hard look at their manufacturing process! They could be as good as ENCORE Rifles, if management would get on the ball!

Tacshooter :sniper:

MSP Ret · « **Reply #25 on:** November 24, 2005, 09:26:34 AM »

As good as ENCORES? If they were encores I would not buy them :?
Sorry you seemed to have such a long and uninterrupted string of bad luck with them tacshooter, most of mine shot well enough from the git go and either got better with shooting and cleaning or were able to be made to shoot much better....I must be one of the many lucky ones here that they shoot well for. Please don't go away mad, don't even go away, there is a lot to be learned and shared here on this friendly site....<><.... :grin:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** November 24, 2005, 11:32:15 AM »

Quote from: tacshooter

I expect a $200.00 rifle to perform like a a $200.00 rifle, not like a $5.00 rifle! These are bad! I have been able in 28 years to make any rifle a decent shooter! NOT THESE! NEF really needs to take a hard look at their manufacturing process! They could be as good as ENCORE Rifles, if management would get on the ball!

Tacshooter :sniper:

I must disagree also, having 25 NEF/H&R rifle barrels that all shoot well, I don't have any that I'd consider selling, have plans for more, in fact. :wink:

jason280 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 24, 2005, 12:34:53 PM »

Quote

I expect a $200.00 rifle to perform like a a $200.00 rifle, not like a $5.00 rifle! These are bad! I have been able in 28 years to make any rifle a decent shooter! NOT THESE! NEF really needs to take a hard look at their manufacturing process!

I am inclined to agree with your comment on their manufacturing process. I have run in to quite a few Handi's recently that do not lock up properly with the forends removed, and some have been loose enough to cause significant headspacing and misfire problems. To me, this is unacceptable in any rifle, regardless of its cost. Furthermore, these are problems that existed prior to the guns even leaving the factory, which suggests to me their QC is remarkably poor. Its a good thing customer service is as good as they are, otherwise they would have lost me as a customer years ago.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 24, 2005, 07:35:11 PM »

I guess I'm one of the lucky guys here...I've had quite a few different rifles...not as many as some...but never the less..quite a few...and never...never have I gotten a bad one from the factory....I have probably handled over 100 of them the past 2 years...and I have even gone as far as to remove the forend verifying numbers ckecking them over very good in the process...all of them were fine except for the usual junk in them..or terrible triggers..but all locked up with no visable gap showing...This is kinda wierd...if they were as bad as a few folks here say..you would think that I would have found a few very loose barrels..but I haven't yet...I know some have had major problems..and some can't get theirs to shoot worth a durn..but..I just don't get it...

Mac

tanoose · « **Reply #29 on:** November 25, 2005, 01:45:19 PM »

Maybe ive been lucky but if i ever get a bad handi i just send it back. I had a 223 ultra varmint i sold only because i never got to use it it was very accurate as was the 45/70 buffalo classic barrel i had it fitted with. My dad had a 30/06 handi that was more accurate then my remington 700 30/06. I have a 45/70 handi with a 22" barrel that is very accurate and i just had a 12 ga. rifled barrel fitted to my 10 ga it also is very accurate. So far i have never had an accuracy problem with the handis and i have a few friends that have the handis in 30/06 very accurate rifles. My buddy Billy up in Dutchess county called me yesterday he got a buck at 160 yards with his ultra slug . Not bad for a shotgun.