Author Topic: Grisly stopper???? (Read 9779 times)

qajaq59 · « **on:** November 24, 2005, 01:48:44 PM »

Personally I'd carry a 10 guage shotgun chock full if deer slugs, but this is a question that I am asking for a friend.

He is going back to Alaska for some salmon fishing and wants to know what " handgun" would be best should he be attacked by a grisly? I think he an experience last year and he's a bit spooky. So what say folks?

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** November 24, 2005, 03:21:27 PM »

I'm an old time handgunner from way back. I'm of the opinion that if you have to ask then the answer is no handgun is right for you. If you are not an experienced enough handgun to KNOW then you are not experienced enough to use one to defend against a charge by a grizzly or any other bear. No doubt he'd be better off with a big bore rifle. Tho I still think everyone in bear country would be well served with a big bore handgun on the hip "just in case" the bear reaches them and they are on the ground fighting for their life.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #2 on:** November 24, 2005, 03:47:33 PM »

A handgun is not the best stopper for brown bears or grizzlies. If I am just playing around and want to carry something as just a "feel good" it is my 629 .44 mag. with 300 gr. solid cast bullets.

If I am really serious and feel like there is a threat then the 870 Remington and 3" Brenneke slugs are carried. Sometimes the .35 Whelen.

Search the Bear Hunting forum and the Alaska forum for many other posts on this topic.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 24, 2005, 05:11:28 PM »

qajaq59, there are a thousand questions like this here. It always causes a heated discussion. My answer is the biggest handgun you can shoot accurately and have a lot of experience with. Me, that would be my S&W500 Mag with a 4 inch barrel.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** November 24, 2005, 11:52:05 PM »

Im with Bill on this if you have to ask your better off packing a first aid kit in your holster!

Quote from: Graybeard

I'm an old time handgunner from way back. I'm of the opinion that if you have to ask then the answer is no handgun is right for you. If you are not an experienced enough handgun to KNOW then you are not experienced enough to use one to defend against a charge by a grizzly or any other bear. No doubt he'd be better off with a big bore rifle. Tho I still think everyone in bear country would be well served with a big bore handgun on the hip "just in case" the bear reaches them and they are on the ground fighting for their life.

qajaq59 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 25, 2005, 12:35:55 AM »

My son has lived in ALaska for 26 years and has always used the .44 but I wondered if there was anything new out there that might be better? Guess not.... Thanks everyone

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** November 25, 2005, 01:46:24 AM »

I'm with Graybeard and Lloyd on this one. Mikey.

jro45 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 25, 2005, 02:14:23 AM »

I'd say the biggest handgun you can shoot under stress. For me thats my S&W500.

CJ · « **Reply #8 on:** November 25, 2005, 04:20:25 AM »

I always got a chuckle out of the old advice "no matter what handgun you carry grind off the front sight, that way it wont hurt as much when the bear sticks it......."
Seriously though, IMHO all handguns are marginal in an ATTACK, the biggest you are comfy with should be the logical choice. One of the fire extinguisher size pepper sprays is also good.

Castaway · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2005, 06:15:09 AM »

Always hate to disagree with the boss, but it seems this fellow has been there before and is going again not matter what. In order of preference, a pump shotgun with 00 buck and slugs but that's not the question. Anything over 44 caliber with the hardest and heaviest non-expanding bullet you can get over 1100 f/s. That means a 44 with 300 grainers, handloaded or specially purchased 45 Colts or anything above on the wrist busting scale. Similar to concealed carry guns, wear the biggest you can tote with the clothes you have on. Carry the biggest that meets the above criteria that he can shoot without fumbling around. As they say, more important than caliber is shot placement and that will require some practice, but the bigger the caliber, the less critical is shot placement. Me? I'd tote my 45 Colt but still feel a might under-gunned with an upset boar or mama separated from her young'uns.

Buddy in AK · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2005, 06:49:00 AM »

Big shotgun or big hole rifle is best until you get tired of it and leave it leaned up against a tree a 100 yds away. As far as Hand Guns, I'm mixed in with the others here. #1 Something you are used to shooting often, that you shoot well. #2 Something you will keep on you at all times. #3 A hard cast bullet that will go through what you hit. #4 If you carry a hand gun you are underguned, BUT it is a whole lot better than throwing rocks.

For me it's my 44 Mag Vaquero 4 5/8 on my side w/ 300 gr hard cast. Chances are you will not be that 1 in 100,000 (or what ever the encounter number is) if you are smart about being in bear country.

Buddy in AK

poncaguy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2005, 09:22:54 AM »

My 45-70 G2 Contender..........I know it's a single shot, but probably wouldn't have time for more than one shot anyway.

ratgunner · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2005, 01:46:55 PM »

Tell your buddy to get some bear spray atleast that way he wont shoot somebody by accident.And yes I'm serious. :shock:

Lawdog · « **Reply #13 on:** November 26, 2005, 11:34:35 AM »

Got to agree with Graybeard here. No such handgun exist. Lawdog

Old Griz · « **Reply #14 on:** November 26, 2005, 12:16:51 PM »

:cb2: Have to agree with ratgunner on the bear spray, but I always get negative feed back. Hunting bear and being attacked by a bear are two different things. As someone else here once said, try hitting a basketball bouncing down hill, coming right at you at 30 mph. That ain't gonna be easy with any gun. I'd go with the cloud of spray first, and then bring out the short shotgun. The handgun is used only when I run outta 12 ga. shells--if I'm still alive that is.

Got two barrels. Whatcha think? 00 buck in both, or a slug in one?

Check out the bear spray at www.udap.com/

S.B. · « **Reply #15 on:** November 26, 2005, 12:56:29 PM »

Not wanting to Hi-jack this thread but, let's think about this situation for a minute. Bear, charging, what shot would you take? Every film I've seen with a bear running showed his head bouncing up and down like an NBA basketball? So brain shots are going to be very difficult at best. Like it was stated earlier in this post, shot placement is paramount, so where do you shoot for? Anther question that comes to mind, how do you practice for this. Bouncing a basketball down a hill? One shot per basketball (if you hit it?). And remember this bruin is dodging in between trees running side to side, making haste to supper. Maybe we all see this situation happening differently? Maybe that's why so many theories?

SJPrice · « **Reply #16 on:** November 26, 2005, 01:29:05 PM »

I suggest he hires Buddy and Dave to watch his back, and front while he fishes.

Lawdog · « **Reply #17 on:** November 27, 2005, 09:47:18 AM »

Quote

Got two barrels. Whatcha think? 00 buck in both, or a slug in one?

Forget the buckshot idea no matter whether it's 0, 00, 000 or 0000. Stay with Benneke slugs in both barrels. Lawdog

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #18 on:** November 27, 2005, 10:38:40 AM »

I agree with this too i wouldnt want to count on buckshot penetration enough ive seen it fail on whitetail. It would never happen to me to begin with as i can never see myself having the cash to hunt where they exist but if i was a guide and had to live around them everyday id probably pack a 4570 guide gun that was worked over to insure absolute reliability or better yet one made up in 50 alaskan and on my hip would be my .500 linebaugh loaded with hard cast.

mr.frosty · « **Reply #19 on:** November 27, 2005, 02:00:41 PM »

get a double barrel 12gauge coach gun load it with slugs

leverfan · « **Reply #20 on:** November 27, 2005, 05:58:00 PM »

I'll add my two bits. I'd rather have a rifle, if I'm bank fishing in a spot where the rifle can be propped right next to me. A .375 H&H with a peep sight or low fixed power scope and a barrel of no more than 22" would be about right, for me.

For shotguns, slugs are the way to go. It's sobering to see just how shallow buckshot really penetrates.

For handguns, as back-up to my fishing pole if packing a rifle isn't an option, I'd go with .44 mag or .45 Colt in a relatively light, handy package. Barrel under 6", weight not much more than 50 ounces. If the .45 is chosen, it needs to be in a handgun that can handle +P loads. A Ruger Redhawk with 5.5" barrel (or a barrel custom chopped an inch or so shorter) would be my top choice, after smoothing the double action pull a bit. Even more important, a big can of pepper spray would be handy, too.

I haven't seen much in the way of impressive shooting at the range when folks are using revolvers more powerful than the .44 magnum. Unless you can really put in the time to master them, your shot placement can just go to hell with the big boomers, from what I've seen. Hitting a moving target while piss is squirting down your pantlegs is just going to add to the challenge. Several hard cast 300 grain slugs, all in the general area of the head, neck, and shoulders, all penetrating somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 feet (when launched over 1100 fps), will give you a better chance of slowing the bear down than a scattering of slugs impacting around the edges, or just flat-out missing with a more powerful handgun.

Above all, fish/hunt with a BUDDY in dangerous areas. If your buddy is quick and spry, maybe they can back you up, or shoot a bruin off of you. If your buddy is slow and plump, and smells like salmon roe, you can shoot the bruin off of him.

Graybeard · « **Reply #21 on:** November 27, 2005, 06:23:45 PM »

All I can say is you folks have a LOT more confidence in slugs than me. There is no way I'd trust any shotgun load I've seen as a bear killer. They are at best pure lead or nearly so and no matter the weight don't offer the penetration I'd want. Yeah I've heard the story Brenneke only but what's so great about them these days? I've seen them in the past and they were just soft lead with a wad attached at the back. Are they now different?

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #22 on:** November 27, 2005, 07:22:50 PM »

http://www.brennekeusa.com/start.html
Black Magic Magnum 12 / 3"

Bill: I did a lot of research before selecting a slug for my "chasing wounded bear" gun. Yes, Fosters are almost 100% lead. You can easily scratch them with a fingernail.

Brenneke's on the other hand (or at least the ones I have) can barely be scratched if at all. They are much harder.

You are looking at a 600 grain slug at 3,000 fp of energy. Something that is going to make a 3/4" diameter hole.

I would love to test one on a black bear but they are too easy to kill. That is why I hunt them with a bow. Much more like hunting.

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** November 27, 2005, 07:31:08 PM »

That had to be about the most useless site I've ever clicked my way into. Had to change screen resolution just to find something clickable on it. Finally managed to see a tiny little photo of the slug on a shell box image. It looks like the same old slug to me. Just a lead Foster with a wad at the back. Again I ask am I missing something?

Chief · « **Reply #24 on:** November 27, 2005, 07:31:52 PM »

I don't know if the faith in slugs is warranted but I do hear a lot of folks around here saying that's what they would want if they were up close and personal with a bear.

Me...I carry a 44 and I buy a bear tag even though I have no intention of shooting one. I buy a tag is so I can start shooting as soon as I want with the 375 H&H, before he gets even close to me (laws are strict up here and I don't want a game wardens saying the bear was no threat to me). Once the 375 is out of bullets it's the 44. After it puts the 44 up my rear it down to the knife then my teeth and hands. My only real hope would be the 375 and that's probably the only thing the bear would be worried about :? .

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #25 on:** November 27, 2005, 08:04:53 PM »

See if this helps Bill:

Original Brenneke Golden Slug 12 GA 3" Magnum

Rottweil Brenneke Cartridges

A century of watching imitators try to duplicate our original BRENNEKE slugs, tells us we're doing things exactly right.

As a dedicated and widely experienced big game hunter, and a highly accomplished ballistics expert, Her Brenneke knew he would never take slug to market that wouldn't meet his own demanding standards. His standards meant taking some of the most dangerous game the world has to offer: bear, boar, lion, tiger, leopard, even Cape Buffalo - all using only his own remarkable shotgun slugs.

All things considered, not much about the Original Brenneke slugs has changed in almost a century. Unless, of course, you consider such thinks as engineering, aerodynamics, ballistics, you-bet-your-hunt-on-it dependability and accuracy.

Original Brenneke 12 3" Magnum
Packing a full 1 3/8 ounce of rifled, aerodynamically precise lead slug in 12 gauge on top of Brenneke's patented PowerWad for tight groups even at a full 100 yards.
The slug bears the unmistakable Brenneke design that originated shotgun slug hunting nearly a century ago, but with the ignition-taming and in-flight stability pluses of the exclusive Power Wad's built-in piston action. Once the powder ignites, the piston cup with build-in gas check moves forward on the shaft to seat securely against the rear edge of the slug. The net results for you are: cushioning of gas pressure in the barrel
greater sectional density and better ballistic coefficient
exceptional flight stability
straight trajectory, no bullet blow-up

This Brenneke, with its full 1 3/8 ounce lead in 12 gauge, delivers 25% greater knock-down power and penetration compared to standard 2 3/4", 1 1/8 ounce slug rounds.
When you're looking for the heaviest, hardest hitting, most accurate slug for your 12-gauge smootherbore, look no farther than the Original Brenneke Magnum.

"Engineered for Rifled Slug Barrels"
Distance(yrds) Velocity(ft./sec.) Energy 1-3/8 oz.(ft./lbs.)
0 1476 2913
25 1286 2209
50 1138 1730
75 1036 1436
100 965 1244
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would never use a Foster. My son found one preparing for deer eason that was loaded sideways into the case. They are that soft.

leverfan · « **Reply #26 on:** November 27, 2005, 08:38:49 PM »

Dave-

Your first link worked for me, but the second one just shows a box of ammo. Meandering around the first one, I see that the Black Magic Magnum is indeed recommended for dangerous game. Dynamit Nobel's site mentions that the slugs are designed for deep penetration without bullet deformation, so I guess that means they ain't soft swaged or anything.

Thanks for the links. My personal first choice for a long gun would still be a .375 H&H, like I said before. If a shotgun was what I had, I'd want it loaded with something like those Brenneke dangerous game loads. I'll take your word for it that the sites aren't just marketing hype (but I'd test 'em in a bullet box before I trusted my hide to them, just like I do with all new projectiles before taking them out in the field).

PaulS · « **Reply #27 on:** November 27, 2005, 10:07:25 PM »

The police rage that I used to belong to ran some tests on penetration through laminated lexan. They tested pistols, rifles and shotguns into the 12 inch thick lexan target. Pistols up to 44 Mag, rifles to 3006, and two shotgun gauges with both slugs and oo buck (12 and 10 ga.)
The rounds that penetrated the deepest were the 10 and 12 guage shotguns. I have seen the same kinds of tests on vehicles with two occupants (ballistic gel) and the shot gun (12 ga) was the only weapon to penetrate the doors and occupants and exit out the oposite side. These tests were conducted at combat ranges (up tp 25 yards) and the conclusion was that the shotgun is the most effective of all the guns tested.
At close range the shotgun is an effective weapon against any attacker.
Would I trust my life to a close in shot at a grizzly with a 12 ga? No, I want a 22mm at 5000 yards - I don't wish to test my speed, agility and accuracy "under fire" with anything that weights 6 or more times my own weight. An Alaskan guide once told me that when you go into the bush in Alaska you wear a loud radio, make lots of noise and yield the right of way to all bears. If you carry a gun make it the biggest gun you can handle quickly and accurately - he said most carry short pump 10 gauges with a 44 on their side. Never having been outside of Anchorage I wouldn't know - I do know that when he was working he carried a 338 mag or larger rifle, but then his shot was always second and against a wounded angry and dangerous animal.

wyocarp · « **Reply #28 on:** November 29, 2005, 05:05:06 PM »

For those of you who don't feel a handgun will stop a big bear, take a look at this thing.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0600/601.htm

I believe this might be the answer to the right gun question for bear.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #29 on:** November 29, 2005, 05:18:24 PM »

I usually don't hunt with a gun bearer to carry my firearms. What would you holster that thing in if one could carry it. :roll: